[QUOTE=The Saiko;47852426]Germany okay, we had this whole genocide thing going which was really uncool
But japan? How was japan evil?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731[/url]
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;47852437]The fact that you have to ask that question is mind boggling.[/QUOTE]
That's a nice way of evading my question.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;47852367]I will never be the person to say that there are definite lines between 'good' and 'bad' in history, especially in regards to world war two. On the basis of what is available to us, the evidence points quite heavily towards the genocidal programs of the German being of an entirely more developed, intentional and abhorrent crime than whatever the crimes committed by the Allies. It's elementary school shit to understand that making a judgement about one side doesn't automatically mean an agreement with the other side. It'd also probably help reading my post next time, where I explain that you are, in fact, able to make value-judgements based upon the evidence despite history being subjective. And that while history is subjective, world war two has a pretty obvious side which by today's standard would be considered 'bad', regardless of whatever everyone else was doing at the time.[/QUOTE]
And again, WWII isn't that clear cut to say theres a "good" side and a "bad" side. It was all bad, all across the board. Everybody did some fucking terrible things, and every government was involved in at least one incident of mass murder. Yea, Germany, the USSR, and Japan did the worst of it but that doesn't make anybody else less innocent.
With that said, it's not good to use sweeping generalizations for entire countries. Not every German was a Jew hating murderer, and not every Japanese was a Chinese raping genocidal maniac. Human beings are far too dynamic to be given sweeping generalizations like that.
and just like you said, history is subjective in some senses, so I don't even know what point you're making about value-judgments. If one person is subjected to only Germany written Eastern Front literature, then they would see the Soviets as the scourge of Europe and the obvious bad guys, and the Germans as the underdog retreating Heroes. One could make a "value-judgment" and call the Soviets the "Bad guys" and the Germans the "Less-bad Guys".
[editline]1st June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=The Saiko;47852451]That's a nice way of evading my question.[/QUOTE]
Dood, Japan murdered millions of civilians, tortured millions of civilians, and the whole Rape of Nanjing thing. How oblivious to the Pacific Theater are you that you have to actually ask a question like that?
[QUOTE=MattSif;47852448][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731[/url][/QUOTE]
Thanks mate, honestly had no idea about japan and what war crimes they committed.
And just to be fair, we did execute prisoners in Normandy during the first few days. Most of it was just pure cynicism of the circumstances, and some of it was the eventual breakdown of command. Wars get messy and crazy shit happens. We're all human beings in the end, anybody can reach that breaking point and become a monster.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;47852453]
[editline]1st June 2015[/editline]
Dood, Japan murdered millions of civilians, tortured millions of civilians, and the whole Rape of Nanjing thing. How oblivious to the Pacific Theater are you that you have to actually ask a question like that?[/QUOTE]
I'm just no good with history. I'm not oblivious we never learned any of this shit in school. We only learned how bad the germans were.
[QUOTE=MattSif;47852414]You're forgetting that it wasn't us that ordered the Dresden bombings, it was in total 722 British bombers and 522 American bombers. It was under Churchill's orders.[/QUOTE]
Irrelevant. We still contributed 522 bombers worth of fire bombs to the city and that doesn't at all change anything that occurred over Japan. We also put up this whole blockade thing around Japan and starved millions of people to death in an attempt to force the Japanese to surrender, so theres also that.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;47852488]Irrelevant. We still contributed 522 bombers worth of fire bombs to the city and that doesn't at all change anything that occurred over Japan.[/QUOTE]
The Japanese bombing campaign was madness, I will agree. It was a different war with a different mindset, there's no justifying it nowadays but that's how it was won. Let's be perfectly clear if that war was waged today it'd still result in civilian casualties but at lesser rate.
[QUOTE=The Saiko;47852485]I'm just no good with history. I'm not oblivious we never learned any of this shit in school. We only learned how bad the germans were.[/QUOTE]
Read "A Helmet for My Pillow". Very insightful book about the pacific theater.
[editline]1st June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=MattSif;47852497]The Japanese bombing campaign was madness, I will agree. It was a different war with a different mindset, there's no justifying it nowadays but that's how it was won. Let's be perfectly clear if that war was waged today it'd still result in civilian casualties but at lesser rate.[/QUOTE]
No shit civilian casualties will occur, but civilian casualties during the US' WWII bombing campaigns were absolutely irrelevant. Thats how Nuclear weapons got justified, how we justified starving millions to death with blockades, and how we justified covering up Soviet mass murders.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;47852206]In Dresden, Germany, the US dropped incendiary bombs when it was chock full of refugees fleeing from the advancing Soviets, and the US knew this. There were no military targets in the city but they still burned everyone in it alive. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=The Saiko;47852292]Dude seriously Dresden was full of people with no food, energy or shelter. How is that a strategic target?[/QUOTE]
Hold on what the shit, Dresden was [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Military_and_industrial_profile"]an industrial and logistics hub[/URL] of the remaining German military. This idea that Dresden was targeted to murder civilians wholesale and had no strategic value is outright revisionism.
And you have to be engaging in willful mental gymnastics to call temporary internment camps equivalent to genocidal death camps and civilian casualties from strategic bombing equivalent to ethnic cleansing. You can debate whether Dresden was a justified campaign or should be considered a war crime. You can debate whether nuclear weapons cost fewer lives than a conventional land invasion or should be considered a war crime. But there is no debate over the atrocities committed by the Nazis or Japanese.
It is just downright wrong to call all the major players of WW2 morally equivalent.
[QUOTE=catbarf;47852523]Hold on what the shit, Dresden was [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Military_and_industrial_profile"]an industrial and logistics hub[/URL] of the remaining German military. This idea that Dresden was targeted to murder civilians wholesale and had no strategic value is outright revisionism.[/QUOTE]
Except the actual military targets barely north of the city were untouched; it even states this in your article. The only target within the city was a railroad hub and some shipping yards, which at that stage of the war, them remaining intact would have had no difference on the events on the Eastern Front.
[QUOTE=catbarf;47852523]
And you have to be engaging in willful mental gymnastics to call temporary internment camps equivalent to genocidal death camps and civilian casualties from strategic bombing equivalent to ethnic cleansing. You can debate whether Dresden was a justified campaign or should be considered a war crime. You can debate whether nuclear weapons cost fewer lives than a conventional land invasion or should be considered a war crime. But there is no debate over the atrocities committed by the Nazis or Japanese.[/QUOTE]
Well no shit, Concentration camps are hardly at all comparable to the temporary internment camps in the US. Conditions weren't good in them but it wasn't purposeful murder like the German and Japanese camps were. Anyone who compares them is a fool to begin with.
[QUOTE=catbarf;47852523]
It is just downright wrong to call all the major players of WW2 morally equivalent.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying they're on the same level, the point I'm trying to get across is that everybody was shit. It doesn't matter how shit somebody else was, because it doesn't change the fact that everybody was shit.
[QUOTE=catbarf;47852523]Hold on what the shit, Dresden was [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Military_and_industrial_profile"]an industrial and logistics hub[/URL] of the remaining German military. This idea that Dresden was targeted to murder civilians wholesale and had no strategic value is outright revisionism.
And you have to be engaging in willful mental gymnastics to call temporary internment camps equivalent to genocidal death camps and civilian casualties from strategic bombing equivalent to ethnic cleansing. You can debate whether Dresden was a justified campaign or should be considered a war crime. You can debate whether nuclear weapons cost fewer lives than a conventional land invasion or should be considered a war crime. But there is no debate over the atrocities committed by the Nazis or Japanese.
It is just downright wrong to call all the major players of WW2 morally equivalent.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree with you but you should finish reading the article you linked.
[QUOTE]the raids had destroyed 24 banks, 26 insurance buildings, 31 stores and retail houses, 640 shops, 64 warehouses, 2 market halls, 31 large hotels, 26 public houses, 63 administrative buildings, 3 theatres, 18 cinemas, 11 churches, 6 chapels; 5 other cultural buildings, 19 hospitals including auxiliary, overflow hospitals, and private clinics, 39 schools, 5 consulates, the zoo, the waterworks, the railways, 19 postal facilities, 4 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram"]tram[/URL] facilities, and 19 ships and barges. The [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht"]Wehrmacht[/URL]'s main command post in the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taschenbergpalais"]Taschenbergpalais[/URL], 19 military hospitals and a number of less significant military facilities were also destroyed.[/QUOTE]
Imo it's ridiculous to pursue German enlisted men for war crimes they may or may not have committed when next to no Americans were prosecuted for their war crimes. Unless you have hard evidence at this point I say leave it alone.
By no means do I mean to compare Allied war crimes to Axis war crimes. It's obvious which side committed more, but to average it out the way people like to do and act like every single pair of boots in the German military personally executed a thousand people is pretty gross. You can't just guess and say "yeah he was in the SS so he's probably guilty of something".
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;47852206]The US bombing effort was a genocide all on it's own. The US flattened entire cities and dropped incendiary bombs purposefully in civilian populaces. Overall, the US and UK managed to murder about a million civilians between Germany, Japan, France, and Italy.[/quote]
Cities have supplies, shelter, industry, communication, and transportation; they also have civilians. Bombs weren't pinpoint accurate back then either, just blowing up the target wasn't always a possibility. But I find it remarkable that you would compare bombing hostile cities--which yes, had civilians--to rounding up civilians and sending them off to custom built death camps to be killed.
[quote]
In Dresden, Germany, the US dropped incendiary bombs [/quote] and high explosive bombs
[quote]when it was chock full of refugees fleeing from the advancing Soviets, and the US knew this.[/quote] Yes. [quote]There were no military targets in the city but they still burned everyone in it alive.[/quote] This is of course debated (the "no military targets" bit, though the "burned everyone alive" bit could also be debated considering the aforementioned high explosive bombs). [quote] 30,000+ were killed in the bombing, with some post-war estimates being as high as several hundred thousands.[/quote]
Though I do like how your "low" estimate is higher than the estimates I see (on wikipedia)--including one apparently done at the behest of the city council in 2010--, sans Nazi propaganda figures from 1945.
[quote]There were so many bodies that the Germans couldn't dig mass graves deep enough to bury them all; they had to bring in men with flamethrowers to burn what remained before they started to rot and spread disease.[/quote]
Which is completely irrelevant to your point and is only mentioned to provoke some sort of emotional response.
[quote]
There was also this whole "Nuclear Bombing" thing as well that happened in Japan. Twice, actually.[/QUOTE]
And yet more would have died had likely died had the US invaded; though of course that's debatable too.
Though none of this is your point; your point is "both sides were evil" and that's nice and all, and yes both sides did bad things; that's the way war is, bad things happen. You know what both sides didn't do? Start the war. Mind, we can place blame the reparations leveled against Germany after the first world war, but when it comes down to it one side was the clear aggressors, the other side even made attempts at appeasement. That, above all else, is what makes WWII such a clear cut case of "good versus evil" as it is so often portrayed; it has nothing to do with what each side did and everything to do with why there was a war in the first place, on which the burden most heavily rests on the shoulders of the Axis powers.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47852655]Cities have supplies, shelter, industry, communication, and transportation; they also have civilians. Bombs weren't pinpoint accurate back then either, just blowing up the target wasn't always a possibility.[/quote]
So should you drop fire bombs over a civilian populace because theres a train station in the middle of it and some army barracks to the north of it? Probably not, unless you're intending to cause terror.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47852655] But I find it remarkable that you would compare bombing hostile cities--which yes, had civilians--to rounding up civilians and sending them off to custom built death camps to be killed.[/quote]
I never actually did that????
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47852655]
and high explosive bombs[/quote]
.......over a civilian populace.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47852655]
Yes. This is of course debated (the "no military targets" bit, though the "burned everyone alive" bit could also be debated considering the aforementioned high explosive bombs).
[/quote]
Ever actually look at any aftermath pictures of Dresden? Quite a few people were burned alive, oddly enough.
And it's not really debated whether or not there were [b]military[/b] targets in the city. The military targets were to the North of the city. With that said, the city present strategic targets, as I mentioned in an earlier post.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47852655]
Though I do like how your "low" estimate is higher than the estimates I see (on wikipedia)--including one apparently done at the behest of the city council in 2010--, sans Nazi propaganda figures from 1945.[/quote]
Theres more than 1 estimate out there, and 30,000 sounds more reasonable to me.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47852655]
Which is completely irrelevant to your point and is only mentioned to provoke some sort of emotional response.[/quote]
Yea, I took the time to formulate a scenario to provoke a emotional response from some teenagers on the internet :rolleyes:. My point is that the bodies were near innumerable.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47852655]
And yet more would have died had likely died had the US invaded; though of course that's debatable too.[/quote]
It's not debatable whether or not the death toll would have been higher if the US invaded, it's cold fact. The estimated death toll was in the millions, not to mention the fact the Soviets would have wanted a piece of Japan before the US could conquer it.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47852655]
Though none of this is your point; your point is "both sides were evil" and that's nice and all, and yes both sides did bad things; that's the way war is, bad things happen. You know what both sides didn't do? Start the war. Mind, we can place blame the reparations leveled against Germany after the first world war, but when it comes down to it one side was the clear aggressors, the other side even made attempts at appeasement. That, above all else, is what makes WWII such a clear cut case of "good versus evil" as it is so often portrayed; it has nothing to do with what each side did and everything to do with why there was a war in the first place, on which the burden most heavily rests on the shoulders of the Axis powers.[/QUOTE]
Axis obviously started the war, yea, and they didn't have a real justifiable reason for doing so (unless you abide by a certain view on the war in the East, but thats a whole 'nother debate), yea, but again, that does not justify anything the Allies did to win a war that they didn't start. "War is Hell" is the age old excuse that doesn't work, no matter what side you're on.
I'm pretty sure the worst thing the allies did collectively was the whole german exodus they did after the war when they kicked 12 million or so germans out of eastern europe and what used to be eastern germany. 2 million germans also died during the exodus and the allies failed to actually care for the rest of them when they arrived in germany. That and the whole relabeling german POW's as DEF's (Disarmed enemy forces) to get around feeding them and to bypass the geneva conventions regarding enemy forces, not to mention keeping POW's for several years after the war ended to use for forced labor on 1000 -1500 calories a day.
That doesn't even go into the whole German pasturization thing they pursued for a good 4 years that caused most of the food shortages and generally bad conditions in post war germany where the average german caloric intake was around 1080 calories a day.
You also can't say the german exodus was entirely the soviets because both the USA and Britain agreed to the potsdam agreement.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;47849669]Because that evidence [B]got removed[/B] by the US in exchange for their services.[/QUOTE]
Where is your evidence to back your claims that the evidence got removed?
Even if the war ended yesterday I don't see the point in persecuting soldiers for following orders, especially when themselves and their loved ones are at risk if they disobeyed them.
If anything, punish the ones who went above and beyond their "call of duty", or who decided to give the orders, but not the ones just doing as they're told.
[QUOTE=MerkySalt;47853510]I'm pretty sure the worst thing the allies did collectively was the whole german exodus they did after the war when they kicked 12 million or so germans out of eastern europe and what used to be eastern germany. 2 million germans also died during the exodus and the allies failed to actually care for the rest of them when they arrived in germany. That and the whole relabeling german POW's as DEF's (Disarmed enemy forces) to get around feeding them and to bypass the geneva conventions regarding enemy forces, not to mention keeping POW's for several years after the war ended to use for forced labor on 1000 -1500 calories a day.
That doesn't even go into the whole German pasturization thing they pursued for a good 4 years that caused most of the food shortages and generally bad conditions in post war germany where the average german caloric intake was around 1080 calories a day.
You also can't say the german exodus was entirely the soviets because both the USA and Britain agreed to the potsdam agreement.[/QUOTE]
This video confirms what you said.
Hellstorm - The Real Genocide of Nazi Germany (Documentary w/ Subtitles)
[video=youtube;GMCOKNCwHmQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMCOKNCwHmQ[/video]
Grymthor, you do realise that Hellstorm was made by the kind of people who believe there is a white genocide occurring at the hands of jewish zionists right?
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;47865733]Grymthor, you do realise that Hellstorm was made by the kind of people who believe there is a white genocide occurring at the hands of jewish zionists right?[/QUOTE]
Have you seen the video?
No. I'm inclined to trust the points made by the BBC's [I]1945: A Savage Peace [/I] documentary instead.
[QUOTE=GrymThor;47865942]Have you seen the video?[/QUOTE]
The video is called "The Real Genocide of Nazi Germany".
[I]Real[/I] Genocide? as if there was a fake genocide...? Like that title alone sends up plenty of red flags
I'm aware of who made it but i don't think its all that relevant considering that its just a historical account of events during and after the war. It also has nothing to do with White Nationalism or these so called Jewish Zionists. I find it funny that people continue to use the word Nazi despite not knowing what it really means.
[QUOTE=GrymThor;47866098]I'm aware of who made it but i don't think its all that relevant considering that its just a historical account of events during and after the war. It also has nothing to do with White Nationalism or these so called Jewish Zionists. I find it funny that people continue to use the word Nazi despite not knowing what it really means.[/QUOTE]
Okay I watched the first 3 minutes of Hellstorm. Within that time it managed make the dubious claim that post WW1 sanctions caused the depression, that poverty caused Germans to lose all morality, that German cities were awash with prostitution, pornography, and drug addiction, and that there was no hope at all.
... Then the uplifting music started playing and the narrator talked about how the Nazi government solved everything and gave Germans hope again, that Hitler was time magazines man of the year in 1938 and how 'to many it seemed like a new cultural, economic and political renaissance' was at hand'*
... and then there is literally a newspaper splash-screen with the headline 'Judea Declares War on Germany' while the narrator talks about how envious, fearful and powerful 'others' worked night and day to take Germany down.**
I'm beginning to suspect that this video is a massive dog-whistle.
[sp]*note how they say 'to many' so they can make the point that Nazi Germany was a renaissance of ideas without actually having to admit they believe exactly that.[/sp]
[sp]** 'others' is a misspelling of 'jews' on their behalf[/sp]
Isn't there a thing called the statute of limitations?
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