A California school is redefining the grading curve - Polidicks

As if Common Core wasn't bad enough

I hated high school so much that I dropped out. I've always thought compulsory education past a certain point becomes a restriction of personal freedom and that grading systems are archaic. Does anyone else agree, or have I gone mad?

Our state has so many idiots, this doesn't surprise me at all.

TBH, I was always biased towards the Russian 1 to 5 system, which operated exactly like A-F system, but without the percentage behind itself.

[QUOTE=pdp;48964036]I hated high school so much that I dropped out. I've always thought compulsory education past a certain point becomes a restriction of personal freedom and that grading systems are archaic. Does anyone else agree, or have I gone mad?[/QUOTE] if you ask me people have to at the least finish high school if nothing else, but the problem's not with compulsory education, it's the way the school systems are at right now with an overemphasis on cribbing rather than actual learning for the sake of high grades. And as for this article, it's just going to make a grade bloated system go belly up even worse since you can now pass by doing fuck all and need to make an effort to just fail your classes. I never liked the overemphasis on high grades and such despite being a good student, but this is retarded period.

[QUOTE=bdd458;48963988]tbh, I feel that we need to make a move away from the current educational model we have in place. it's all about rote memorization and tests, and of course, the grade. There has to be a better system, one which is more enjoyable and productive for both student and teacher. This I feel is only a small step to that. And I will say, it is a lot easier to learn something when you're not stressing over a grade, so tbh I feel they're on to something.[/QUOTE] How do you propose evaluating thousands of students simultaneously in a timely manner?

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;48964189]How do you propose evaluating thousands of students simultaneously in a timely manner?[/QUOTE] idk I've not done nearly enough thinking or reading into the subject. tho tbh in my perfect world learning would be done for the sake of learning, and there wouldn't be grades at all, no competition because learning isn't a competition, along with a world much closer to what groups like the Hippies envisioned. that's really just a pipe-dream though :v:

We have a problem and this isn't the solution.

Grades are bullshit anyway and I have never met a student who would genuinely get better thanks to them. Just abolish them and replace them with simple boolean you pass/don't. The individuality and various psychological effects of competitive rating grading create so many problems and ruin the valuable spirit in studying. Nobody who ever learned something purely in sake of getting a good score ever learned it very well. The only purpose of grade feedback should be to point out the student just didn't understand or fulfill something sufficiently. On the other hand there should be nothing like passing grades for "effort" or trying when the performance is clearly not suffixed. It should be a question of purely distinguishing between what works or doesn't.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48964970]Grades are bullshit anyway and I have never met a student who would genuinely get better thanks to them. Just abolish them and replace them with simple boolean you pass/don't. The individuality and various psychological effects of competitive rating grading create so many problems and ruin the valuable spirit in studying. Nobody who ever learned something purely in sake of getting a good score ever learned it very well. The only purpose of grade feedback should be to point out the student just didn't understand or fulfill something sufficiently. On the other hand there should be nothing like passing grades for "effort" or trying when the performance is clearly not suffixed. It should be a question of purely distinguishing between what works or doesn't.[/QUOTE] That's not a problem with grades, that's a problem with how teachers grade work and how the work is designed. If your testing system is good, it will assign grades to those who bothered to properly learn the material as opposed to just memorising facts and formulas. [editline]23rd October 2015[/editline] The difference is very obvious at my university. Lots of people come in from the A-level system, where they simply memorised formulas and applied them to score well, but they get screwed in university exams because those truly test your understanding of the material.

[QUOTE=bdd458;48963040]Wholeheartedly agree, been wrestling with that issue myself. Will be interesting to see if this new way actually changes that.[/QUOTE] Problem with that is it also lets kids be lazy, lets them literally just coast through school and end up dumb as a box of bricks when they graduate high school.

I'm having a small issue at the moment where I'm applying to american universities for post-grad but the highest degree class in England is >=70%, making it effectively equivalent to a 4.0 according to various websites when to them it looks like a pretty bad grade.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48965228]That's not a problem with grades, that's a problem with how teachers grade work and how the work is designed. If your testing system is good, it will assign grades to those who bothered to properly learn the material as opposed to just memorising facts and formulas. [editline]23rd October 2015[/editline] The difference is very obvious at my university. Lots of people come in from the A-level system, where they simply memorised formulas and applied them to score well, but they get screwed in university exams because those truly test your understanding of the material.[/QUOTE] No, that's a different issue altogether that's not related to it. You can just assume pure memorising of stuff that's crucial to be understood in depth is automatic fail and it again changes nothing.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48964970]Grades are bullshit anyway and I have never met a student who would genuinely get better thanks to them. Just abolish them and replace them with simple boolean you pass/don't. The individuality and various psychological effects of competitive rating grading create so many problems and ruin the valuable spirit in studying. Nobody who ever learned something purely in sake of getting a good score ever learned it very well. The only purpose of grade feedback should be to point out the student just didn't understand or fulfill something sufficiently. On the other hand there should be nothing like passing grades for "effort" or trying when the performance is clearly not suffixed. It should be a question of purely distinguishing between what works or doesn't.[/QUOTE] The boolean kinda starts failing when you put into account colleges where stipendia kinda depend on them. GPA tends to matter less, and not many look after a red diploma, but they offer other things beyond mere pass no pass filters. Overall the boolean only kind of works in uni setting since you don't have a lot of many small grades which then form an average which will be what you get. Unis tend to have one single exam per subject. Non unis can have 10 smaller ones. [QUOTE=Headhumpy;48965228]That's not a problem with grades, that's a problem with how teachers grade work and how the work is designed. If your testing system is good, it will assign grades to those who bothered to properly learn the material as opposed to just memorising facts and formulas. [editline]23rd October 2015[/editline] The difference is very obvious at my university. Lots of people come in from the A-level system, where they simply memorised formulas and applied them to score well, but they get screwed in university exams because those truly test your understanding of the material.[/QUOTE] I can tell you that this isn't an issue of grading but testing. A grade is a test result. But that tells you nothing of the test methodology.What you dislike is standardised tests which often work as entrance exams for unis and that is actually a setting they work very well. It's an easily verifiable result, without subjective grading. It obviously works less well for later uni exams so isn't used as much.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48964970]Grades are bullshit anyway and I have never met a student who would genuinely get better thanks to them. Just abolish them and replace them with simple boolean you pass/don't. The individuality and various psychological effects of competitive rating grading create so many problems and ruin the valuable spirit in studying. Nobody who ever learned something purely in sake of getting a good score ever learned it very well. The only purpose of grade feedback should be to point out the student just didn't understand or fulfill something sufficiently. On the other hand there should be nothing like passing grades for "effort" or trying when the performance is clearly not suffixed. It should be a question of purely distinguishing between what works or doesn't.[/QUOTE] The problem though comes from the educators standpoint. In this day and age you have to have a lot of proof to justify failing someone, and people are very vocal and aggressive when they get failing grades. My university ceramics professor was fired because he failed a student, a student who didn't even show up to half the classes and never did the work. She went to the dean and said the professor emotionally abused her, even though she was the one screaming at him. I was there and saw the whole incident go down. Because he didn't have a rigid grading system since it was a free spirited ceramics course he wasn't able to justify why he failed her properly according to the university and lost his job. My mother is a professor of nursing and she weekly has students that demand higher grades for assignments saying things like "I can't get a C, I am an A student!", and it's only through my mothers iron-clad syllabus that she can stick to her grades. I'm sure in highschool it's the same thing, only with the parents stepping in to say their kid is an A student. Basically everyone's an Honors student now, and the teachers have very little power.

[QUOTE=Ajacks;48965858]The problem though comes from the educators standpoint. In this day and age you have to have a lot of proof to justify failing someone, and people are very vocal and aggressive when they get failing grades. My university ceramics professor was fired because he failed a student, a student who didn't even show up to half the classes and never did the work. She went to the dean and said the professor emotionally abused her, even though she was the one screaming at him. I was there and saw the whole incident go down. Because he didn't have a rigid grading system since it was a free spirited ceramics course he wasn't able to justify why he failed her properly according to the university and lost his job. My mother is a professor of nursing and she weekly has students that demand higher grades for assignments saying things like "I can't get a C, I am an A student!", and it's only through my mothers iron-clad syllabus that she can stick to her grades. I'm sure in highschool it's the same thing, only with the parents stepping in to say their kid is an A student. Basically everyone's an Honors student now, and the teachers have very little power.[/QUOTE] Again that's problems with the grading system stemming from the grading system. They are independent on the bad grades. In a "free spirited ceramics course" failing to show up to do your work should be classified as boolean "fail", you get too many, you are out. That has nothing to do with particular grading scheme. [editline]23rd October 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=wraithcat;48965659]The boolean kinda starts failing when you put into account colleges where stipendia kinda depend on them. GPA tends to matter less, and not many look after a red diploma, but they offer other things beyond mere pass no pass filters. Overall the boolean only kind of works in uni setting since you don't have a lot of many small grades which then form an average which will be what you get. Unis tend to have one single exam per subject. Non unis can have 10 smaller ones. [/QUOTE] That is a good point actually but still nothing that can't be done without. You could assign stipendia based on the number of extra, voluntary assignments (which could still be true/false graded), or run some additional exams exempt from the normal grading scheme that would decide who deserves the money the most.

[QUOTE]Under the new policy, grades rise in 20-point increments. For example, scores of 20 to 40 percentage points earn D- through D+ grades — and so on, up the ladder. Students get an A- for scoring between 80 and 85, which traditionally is low B territory.[/QUOTE] Uh? I thought that was how it worked already with those alphabetic grades. What's the point anyway, why don't they just use numerical grades without converting them to letters?

My terrible highschool was doing so horribly they clamped all failing grades to the lowest possible D one year. Since the teachers never did their job, it allowed a ton of students, both legitimate and not(moreso not of course), to pass.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48964970]Grades are bullshit anyway and I have never met a student who would genuinely get better thanks to them. Just abolish them and replace them with simple boolean you pass/don't. The individuality and various psychological effects of competitive rating grading create so many problems and ruin the valuable spirit in studying. Nobody who ever learned something purely in sake of getting a good score ever learned it very well. The only purpose of grade feedback should be to point out the student just didn't understand or fulfill something sufficiently. On the other hand there should be nothing like passing grades for "effort" or trying when the performance is clearly not suffixed. It should be a question of purely distinguishing between what works or doesn't.[/QUOTE] I think the simple pass or fail system would work better, and by getting rid of the concept of GPA. Then it removes the stigma of bad grades while still setting a standard for everyone to achieve. While it may not reward those who excel, that's not the point of an education.

[QUOTE=TestECull;48965289]Problem with that is it also lets kids be lazy, lets them literally just coast through school and end up dumb as a box of bricks when they graduate high school.[/QUOTE] And the current system doesn't already do that. I know it's bias coming from a D grader but low grades don't make you dumb and high grades don't make you smart. I know dumb arses who get A*s and geniuses who get Us, for some people it just doesn't fit, something doesn't click and for some people it does. I don't know.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;48967425]I think the simple pass or fail system would work better, and by getting rid of the concept of GPA. Then it removes the stigma of bad grades while still setting a standard for everyone to achieve. While it may not reward those who excel, that's not the point of an education.[/QUOTE] C's get degrees

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48964970]Grades are bullshit anyway and I have never met a student who would genuinely get better thanks to them.[/QUOTE] The fundamental purpose of grades isn't to cause the student to do better. It's to give some objective method to knowing how much the student knows. It allows an outsider to know if the student isn't sufficiently knowledgable (F), knows the minimum required (D and C), or is proficient in the material (B and A). A simple pass/fail system doesn't allow the best students to shine. That's one of the reasons many STEM majors grade on the curve where the average should be somewhere between 50% and 70%. It means that getting a 50% will pass you, but compared to other students, you aren't quite as proficient.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;48967425]I think the simple pass or fail system would work better, and by getting rid of the concept of GPA. Then it removes the stigma of bad grades while still setting a standard for everyone to achieve. While it may not reward those who excel, that's not the point of an education.[/QUOTE] What? Of course it is. Why should the education system gimp those who excel at what they do by binning them with all the students who just do the bare minimum to pass? What incentive do students have to do well if they get no recognition for it?

[quote]even if they do not hand in homework, get 50 percent.[/quote] My highschool did this in my freshman and sophomore year. They got rid of it because kids were not doing any homework, and just doing well on tests/quizzes, and were coming out of the quarter with a ~B average. With this new curve they would be able to get an A.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48968209]What? Of course it is. Why should the education system gimp those who excel at what they do by binning them with all the students who just do the bare minimum to pass? What incentive do students have to do well if they get no recognition for it?[/QUOTE] That's very dependent on where you set the bar and how you proceed to educate people. There are ways to offer incentives to students that do not create a system derived by personal achievement.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;48967425]I think the simple pass or fail system would work better, and by getting rid of the concept of GPA. Then it removes the stigma of bad grades while still setting a standard for everyone to achieve. While it may not reward those who excel, that's not the point of an education.[/QUOTE] It actually is. Those that excel tend to generally move up to better schools due to their grades. It definitely is one of the points of education.

[QUOTE=oskutin;48963555]In finnish schools you had to get about 20-25% points or what ever to pass.[/QUOTE] When I was a kid it was 45%, now its 65% over here [editline]25th October 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=_Axel;48966752]Uh? I thought that was how it worked already with those alphabetic grades. What's the point anyway, why don't they just use numerical grades without converting them to letters?[/QUOTE] We have numerical grades but don't really do the whole - + thing. It's some weird obsession to have even a single grade have three different values. It makes sense, if you make it very easy to have a C or more, then you're going to have a terribly large group of students who have B's and A's, so you now need a new way to see who is better than who, by making B-, B, B+, and so on. It's basically IGN's game reviews where everything is either an 8 or more, or it's 7 or less and therefore shit. [editline]25th October 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=wraithcat;48978237]It actually is. Those that excel tend to generally move up to better schools due to their grades. It definitely is one of the points of education.[/QUOTE] Also certain faculties have a set limit of students they accept per year. A binary system would require every single college to have entrance exams, where right now only the arts have entrance exams and other faculties just look at your grades in the relevant field.

It's an interesting take on a very large problem, which is that kids don't really give a shit about education and instead focus on getting grades without truly absorbing the information they learn in the long run. Unfortunately it also just lets a lot of lazy students slip by more easily. School should simply be a better place to be at, most public schools are like a step above prison in terms of how much the occupants want to be there.