Confirmed: British aid worker WAS killed by US grenade - Polidicks

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;26448020]1. They weren't in a cave. 2. You throw flashbangs in ahead of you and hide behind a door. The only effects you feel are the loss or distortion of hearing for a moment. 3. Teargars. Solution = gasmasks.[/QUOTE] 2: Flashbangs lose most of their power when used outside. 3: Special operations rarely carry tear gas. Tear gas is an anti riot weapon. In a hostage rescue situation, the concentration of the tear gas in the building could EASILY kill the occupants. Gas is only used inside buildings after people have had a chance to assess the building design. Police will bust out windows and ensure proper ventilation before launching gas into a building. I assume they began taking fire on their approach to where she was being held and switched from surprise attack to storm the building mode. Which is really your only play at that point. Once they have spotted you, you need to cover ground as fast as is humanly possible if you want ANY hope of recovering the hostage alive. This means hitting enemy cover with frags instead of getting into a prolonged standoff.

[QUOTE=GunFox;26448034]I'm glad that everyone in this thread is totally aware of the circumstances surrounding the situation and is able to make blanket statements about the stupidity of using a frag grenade[/QUOTE] [quote]After being dropped off by two helicopters, one of two teams moved along a narrow ledge and came under attack. Mr Hague said it was believed Ms Norgrove was being held in buildings higher up a mountain. He said: "A grenade was thrown by a member of the rescue team who feared for his own life and those of his team towards a gully from where some of the insurgents had emerged. "When the grenade was thrown no member of the team had seen, or heard, Linda Norgrove."[/quote] There's your situation. "Oh, we believe that the hostage isn't over there by those insurgents but we don't really know because we haven't seen her yet or have any specific idea. Whatevs. Fire in the hole boys!"

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;26448020]1. They weren't in a cave. 2. You throw flashbangs in ahead of you and hide behind a door. The only effects you feel are the loss or distortion of hearing for a moment. 3. Teargars. Solution = gasmasks. Yeah. Fuck trying to help out. Bitch deserved it.[/QUOTE] Hence my saying of "if", not "are". Frag grenades don't even use a chemical reaction anymore. It's a gas system now, designed to be less lethal, but more damaging. Chances are he threw one, thinking she was kept either in another room or whatnot, and he ended up killing her. It happens.

[QUOTE=GunFox;26448066]2: Flashbangs lose most of their power when used outside.[/quote] They thought she was in a building. [QUOTE=GunFox;26448066]3: Special operations rarely carry tear gas. Tear gas is an anti riot weapon. In a hostage rescue system, the concentration of the tear gas in the building could EASILY kill the occupants. Gas is only used inside buildings after people have had a chance to assess the building design. Police will bust out windows and ensure proper ventilation before launching gas into a building.[/QUOTE] Point taken. [QUOTE=Identity;26448083]Chances are he threw one, thinking she was kept either in another room or whatnot, and he ended up killing her. It happens.[/QUOTE] Don't throw grenades based on a hunch.

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;26448070]There's your situation. "Oh, we believe that the hostage isn't over there by those insurgents but we don't really know because we haven't seen her yet or have any specific idea. Whatevs. Fire in the hole boys!"[/QUOTE] As far as they knew they were just under attack from a group of insurgents. I think the grenade was justified, it was just that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;26448088] Don't throw grenades based on a hunch.[/QUOTE] A hunch? You mean the insurgents in plain view are a hunch? He was thinking of the safety of his men. His men, which are the rescuing force. If they go down, there is no rescue operation. It turns into a recovery op. She died in the crossfire. Boo hoo if he threw the grenade. We'd have more casualties if he didn't. Is the loss of life sad? Yes, it is. But that is no reason to criticize him based on something you'd might do if you were in his position.

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;26448070]There's your situation. "Oh, we believe that the hostage isn't over there by those insurgents but we don't really know because we haven't seen her yet or have any specific idea. Whatevs. Fire in the hole boys!"[/QUOTE] Wait, so they weren't actually at the buildings where they thought she was being held. She turned out to be in a GULLY?! Who hides hostages in a gully? Yeah fuck that. I'd have thrown one too. A gully would stop collateral damage in the event she was in a nearby building and it would clear out a potentially dangerous emplacement. Nobody in their right mind would assume she was being held outside in a ditch.

[QUOTE=dogmachines;26448109]As far as they knew they were just under attack from a group of insurgents. [/QUOTE] What? They knew far more than "just a group of insurgents". They were on a rescue operation. They knew there was a hostage in the AO. [editline]2nd December 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=GunFox;26448169]Wait, so they weren't actually at the buildings where they thought she was being held. She turned out to be in a GULLY?! Who hides hostages in a gully? Yeah fuck that. I'd have thrown one too. A gully would stop collateral damage in the event she was in a nearby building and it would clear out a potentially dangerous emplacement. Nobody in their right mind would assume she was being held outside in a ditch.[/QUOTE] So let's throw the grenade!... based on a hunch!... again! The insurgents probably knew the rescue force was coming, or heard the choppers, so they weren't keeping the hostage in the gulley but were escaping with her or something. That seems far more likely than them keeping the woman in a gulley for months.

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;26448176]What? They knew far more than "just a group of insurgents". They were on a rescue operation. They knew there was a hostage in the AO.[/QUOTE] Do you know how big an AO is? How many map grids there are to cover?

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;26448176]What? They knew far more than "just a group of insurgents". They were on a rescue operation. They knew there was a hostage in the AO.[/QUOTE] Their intel said she was in a building a good distance away. When you get attacked by a group of insurgents who aren't near that area, it's reasonable to assume the hostage is not with them out in the open, but rather in a more secure location.

[QUOTE=Identity;26448188]Do you know how big an AO is? How many map grids there are to cover?[/QUOTE] Okay. So I shouldn't have used that terminology. End of the day, they were there to rescue a civilian. It was not just "a random bunch of insurgents". [QUOTE=dogmachines;26448195]Their intel said she was in a building a good distance away. When you get attacked by a group of insurgents who aren't near that area, it's reasonable to assume the hostage is not with them out in the open, but rather in a more secure location.[/QUOTE] Their very vague intel. And I don't know how you know how far away this gulley was from the building, because that certainly isn't disclosed in the article.

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;26448176]What? They knew far more than "just a group of insurgents". They were on a rescue operation. They knew there was a hostage in the AO. [editline]2nd December 2010[/editline] So let's throw the grenade!... based on a hunch!... again! [/QUOTE] Getting into a prolonged gunbattle with entrenched insurgents is also a huge gamble. Gives them time to decide to execute the woman and flee. Again, you don't really have a play once you've been spotted outside of scorched earth. You fight as hard and as fast as is humanly possible to reach the buildings where you believe the hostages are being held. Because if you don't, they will shoot the hostages and you will probably have taken casualties in the attempt.

[QUOTE=Identity;26447978]It comes down to instinct and reflex, rather than what you've been taught in BCT.[/QUOTE] Then their training must have been pretty shit, since the whole point of it is to teach soldiers to manage their instincts and reflexes appropriately to the situation.

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;26448206]Okay. So I shouldn't have used that terminology. End of the day, they were there to rescue a civilian. It was not just "a random bunch of insurgents". [/QUOTE] The point of them being insurgents is entirely based on the fact they're comprised of random people and elements. What good is a rescue force if they die? The grenade was tossed out of defense, because they knew if they went down, she would've died after. [editline]2nd December 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=David29;26448238]Then their training must have been pretty shit, since the whole point of it is to teach soldiers to manage their instincts and reflexes appropriately to the situation.[/QUOTE] Which they did. I don't know how you're thinking they didn't. Read the thread more.

If people never threw a grenade when they weren't 100% sure there was no chance of somebody getting caught in the crossfire, there wouldn't be very many thrown. Distance of the gulley from the building doesn't matter. It's a gulley, the ground is lower. It would contain any explosion.

Shit happens.

Loving all the keyboard tacticians that think they could have done a better job while being shot at.

Why can't we just make peace, and love one another.

omg americorrn solderrs r fookin stupid gung-ho idiots

[QUOTE=Mister_Jack;26448618]Loving all the keyboard tacticians that think they could have done a better job while being shot at.[/QUOTE] Considering I'm enlisting, I wouldn't say I could do better, I could say though, that I'd do the same.

Why is everyone getting so touchy.

[QUOTE=Cypher_09;26448003]Lol americans "it was an accident" If it had been the other way round your tone would have been quite different.[/QUOTE] please don't start this it leads to "wow we have better tanks than ur tanks so... ya our country is better" why can't we be friends britain and US why can't we be friends

[QUOTE=Kingy_why;26448635]Why can't we just make peace, and love one another.[/QUOTE] Because you're a fa- I mean what.

psh if i was them i woulda ran up and hit the terrorists in the face with my force fx lightsaber couldn't be that hard, after all i am a facepunch user

[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26448772]Because you're a fa- I mean what.[/QUOTE] No, because there are some meanies who just spoil it for us. Don't be one of those meanies who hates, just spread a message of peace and love. The only thing you should hate is hate.

Maybe they used the grenade to suppress to the insurgents?

[QUOTE=Identity;26448256]Which they did. I don't know how you're thinking they didn't. Read the thread more.[/QUOTE] So training teaches soldiers to kill innocent civilians then? Ok.

[QUOTE=farmatyr;26447880]Stupid bitch dresses like the enemy, gets what she deserved. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting" - SteveUK))[/highlight][/QUOTE] she didn't dress like the enemy, the enemy dressed like civilians. the fuck is your problem.

Hundreds of civilians die from stray fire - "Oh yeah and a buncha people died or something when we lobbed a 'nade in there." Single aid worker dies from stray fire - "WE HIT AN AID WORKER WITH A GRENADE, OH CRAP WHAT DO WE DO"

[QUOTE=Kingy_why;26448802]No, because there are some meanies who just spoil it for us. Don't be one of those meanies who hates, just spread a message of peace and love. The only thing you should hate is hate.[/QUOTE] I fucking hate hate. Let's start a war on hate.