Hillary Clinton slams Russia for attempting to rebuild the Soviet Union

[1nfiniteseed]

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;38781081]Ukraine is the path to a warm water port and access to the southern oceans via the Suez Canal. I don't believe Russia will ever stop looking to some way to incorporate that nation into itself as it has done in the past.[/QUOTE]

What?

Russia already has a Black Sea port at Novorossiysk as well as a lease on the base at Sevastopol. Think before you post. Russian foreign policy doesn't amount to "fuck everyone over because we did that before and that's what everyone thinks we're supposed to do"

[DesolateGrun]

[img]http://rt.com/files/usa/news/clinton-benghazi-testimony-attack-586/hillary-belfast-clinton-news.jpg[/img]
Yo Hillary, losing the 2008 primary wasn't the only thing you lost

[Fire Kracker]

[QUOTE=Boba_Fett;38777637][img]http://www.battlefield-2142.org/pics/pac_logo.png[/img][/QUOTE]

their picture is marijuana lol

[Strider*]

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;38777695]Though the US and NATO have unnecessarily thrown a lot of its weight around in the world for the past 20 years, I don't believe the world would benefit much from a bipolar super power rivalry again.[/QUOTE]

We'll get a lot of sweet movies and video games though.

[butre]

[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;38777768]I don't think anyone wants to see another soviet union again.[/QUOTE]

I do. we progressed more during the cold war than we ever did before or after it ended

[ewitwins]

Nope, she's all wrong, nothing to see here move along!

[Vasili]

I wouldn't mind seeing a system that united the Russians again, root out corruption and increase industry and infrastructure.

[Mike42012]

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;38777695]Though the US and NATO have unnecessarily thrown a lot of its weight around in the world for the past 20 years, I don't believe the world would benefit much from a bipolar super power rivalry again.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. We will be making much scientific progress in the wake of another cold war.

[Morkcheese]

[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;38782832]I do. we progressed more during the cold war than we ever did before or after it ended[/QUOTE]
no

nuclear annihilation people

come on

[Daniel Smith]

Beware the future

[IMG]http://i.cubeupload.com/xLxYG2.png[/IMG]

[長門有希]

damn it i hope i'll manage to escape the commies :v:

[Lonestriper]

This is pretty transparent in how awful her complaint is

[hipsterhendrix]

Personally im all for the Eurasian Union. It means smaller countries around the russia can finally build up and stop being locked in the 1980's. america just needs to stop being world police...

[butre]

[QUOTE=Yumyumbublegum;38783204]no

nuclear annihilation people

come on[/QUOTE]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction[/url]

[Paul McCartney]

Woah what the fuck.

In that one image, they're annexing like five nations.

[editline]10th December 2012[/editline]

The states of Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan are joining Russia if this goes through.

That's kinda scary.

[Morkcheese]

[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;38784506][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction[/url][/QUOTE]
Yes and even with both parties fully aware of MAD we still came dangerously close to the destruction of the world. A technical glitch could have easily resulted in the complete annihilation of mankind(it almost did a couple of times in the cold war if my memory is right).

I would never want another situation where mankind is at an easy place to wipe itself out, not for all the scientific progress in the world. A hypothesis for the apparent lack of extra-terrestrial life is that technological civilizations destroy themselves. I could easily see that happening to us, it would be very disappointing if that prediction is correct.

[editline]10th December 2012[/editline]

Here's an example.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Soviet_nuclear_false_alarm_incident[/url]

[editline]10th December 2012[/editline]

Not to mention the criticisms from MAD Wikipedia page.

[EmperorScorpious]

[QUOTE=Conscript;38781783]I think it's funny you make a post full of uncited claims, and you get a bunch of agrees. Thanks for proving my point.

[url]http://phobos.ramapo.edu/~theed/Cold_War/f_Conclusion/media/Figure2.jpg[/url]

[url]http://phobos.ramapo.edu/~theed/Cold_War/f_Conclusion/media/GDP_Growth_Rate_b.jpg[/url]

Soviet GDP was growing all the way until the gorbachev years. Defense spending as a share of GDP dropped in the reagan era. The soviets were arms exporters for decades, selling cheap stuff to anyone, including pact members, who doubled as a consumer base for soviet products and an exporter of resources to the USSR. The satellites were not simple money pits.

In order to develop these nations and eventually make money off trade with them, which they did. Consider the relationship between cuba and the USSR. Members of the trade bloc basically exported everything to the USSR.

The russian federation paid this debt that's 'so high it can't be repaid', with an economy a fraction the size of the USSR and also in shambles.

The biggest problem for the warsaw pact and the USSR and the debt they had, was that the loans were made mostly by the west, whose interest rates persistently rose from 86 onwards.

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/1989/03/02/business/east-europe-s-burden-of-debt.html[/url]

Nearly 40% of the debt total at the end of 1988 was accrued over 4 years. More garbage on gorbachev's platter.

1. There was no renewed arms race.
2. The war in afghanistan was waning on its scale and resistance. Hell, the DRA continued to exist after the collapse of the USSR.

No, they didn't because gorbachev made a pledge to have nothing to do with the affairs of the warsaw pact countries.

Are you going to cite any of this?[/QUOTE]

I cite this book, among others. My term paper for my history class this semester is on the collapse of the Soviet Union. My professor is a Russian historian and he approved the paper. I think I know my stuff on this.

[img]http://i43.tower.com/images/mm112955992/a-failed-empire-soviet-union-in-cold-war-vladislav-m-zubok-paperback-cover-art.jpg[/img]

[Helari]

mutually assured destruction is infact selfish and illogical.

if an actual nuclear war broke out, why doom whole humanity instead of just die and let live.

for deterrence and such shit it's best to keep saying that retaliation will happen but if you actually have to make the decision about whether to have the human race get bombed back into the stone age or your enemies to live it's something to think about.

[laserguided]

[QUOTE=redhaven;38779694]Eurasian Union is basically a Russian Empire 2.0. The not-Russia members are too weak to counter-weight the bear even if they combine themselves.[/QUOTE]
Its not like they're invading, its their choice whether or not they want to join the EAU.

[ionuttzu]

[QUOTE=Falchion;38786130]mutually assured destruction is infact selfish and illogical.

if an actual nuclear war broke out, why doom whole humanity instead of just die and let live.

for deterrence and such shit it's best to keep saying that retaliation will happen but if you actually have to make the decision about whether to have the human race get bombed back into the stone age or your enemies to live it's something to think about.[/QUOTE]
Because revenge, it's human nature.

[Canuhearme?]

[QUOTE=Yumyumbublegum;38783204]no

nuclear annihilation people

come on[/QUOTE]

Nuclear annihilation will never happen as long as one side can keep the other in check.

Hell, the only reason the Cuban Missile Crisis got as heated as it did was because the USSR didn't expect the US to be so willing to increase hostilities (which was due to constituent pressure on the Government, something the USSR isn't exactly cognizant in.)

The only thing you really need to worry about are glitches and human error.

[tempcon]

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;38786073]I cite this book, among others. My term paper for my history class this semester is on the collapse of the Soviet Union. My professor is a Russian historian and he approved the paper. I think I know my stuff on this.

[img]http://i43.tower.com/images/mm112955992/a-failed-empire-soviet-union-in-cold-war-vladislav-m-zubok-paperback-cover-art.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

That's nice. You cited a secondary source from a nameless american author, and there's countless amounts of them, each with their own book and unique interpretation. Suffice to say I don't care.

Being a russian historian doesn't mean shit. Otherwise apologists like grover furr or hysterical cold warrior propagandists like robert conquest would be an authority on the USSR. There is a historian divide on pretty much all segments of soviet history, from the so-called holodomor to the nature of the german-soviet relationship to reasons for the collapse of the USSR. The issue is too big and divisive to credit a single secondary source with the truth.

Furthermore, doing a fucking paper for your class doesn't mean you 'know your stuff'. Jesus christ. No doubt all you did was pick up richard pipes, robert conquest, and the rest of the usual published secondary sources that flood the market and libraries in the west.

Soviet history is too controversial to be left to be written by cold warriors and historian-entrepreneurs and the college students left to reference their work. The cold war has left a heap of crap on the grave of the USSR that will need to be blown away with time.

Also, primary source > secondary source

[POLOPOZOZO]

and youre an authority on the subject because...?

[tempcon]

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;38791578]and youre an authority on the subject because...?[/QUOTE]

What?

[trotskygrad]

[QUOTE=Conscript;38792123]What?[/QUOTE]

what makes you an authority on this topic?

also care you cite your primary sources?

[tempcon]

[QUOTE=trotskygrad;38792214]what makes you an authority on this topic?[/quote]

Piss off with this question. I never said I was only pointed out that ridiculousness of my opponent claiming to be for the reasons he stated. Suddenly I must make the same claim and prove it? Go away.

[Quote]also care you cite your primary sources?[/QUOTE]

I linked them. There is a whole archived portfolio of graphs and such in the folder of the image.

[trotskygrad]

[QUOTE=Conscript;38792637]Piss off with this question. I never said I was only pointed out that ridiculousness of my opponent claiming to be for the reasons he stated. Suddenly I must make the same claim and prove it? Go away.[/QUOTE]

establishing credibility is an important part of any discussion.

[QUOTE=Conscript;38792637]
I linked them. There is a whole archived portfolio of graphs and such in the folder of the image.[/quote]

all graphs with a source that isn't in the same image.

Not saying it's not credible, I'd just like to know where those graphs are sourcing their data.

[Itsjustguy]

[img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img]
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1197956&p=36771004&viewfull=1#post36771004[/url]
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1197956&p=36779194&viewfull=1#post36779194[/url]
[img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img]

[B]
CONSCRIPT and MARBALO are BIASED AS FUCK ![/B]

[laserguided]

[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;38792880][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img]
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1197956&p=36771004&viewfull=1#post36771004[/url]
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1197956&p=36779194&viewfull=1#post36779194[/url]
[img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img]

[B]
CONSCRIPT and MARBALO are BIASED AS FUCK ![/B][/QUOTE]
Hey your post is bias.

[tempcon]

[QUOTE=trotskygrad;38792683]establishing credibility is an important part of any discussion.[/quote]

I don't owe you anything.

[Quote]all graphs with a source that isn't in the same image.

Not saying it's not credible, I'd just like to know where those graphs are sourcing their data.[/QUOTE]

They're graphs in a professor's archive for a cold war history course, HIS 327 at ramapo college. You'd have to ask him.

[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;38792880][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img]
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1197956&p=36771004&viewfull=1#post36771004[/url]
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1197956&p=36779194&viewfull=1#post36779194[/url]
[img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img][img]http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/files/2007/02/0223siren.gif[/img]

[B]
CONSCRIPT and MARBALO are BIASED AS FUCK ![/B][/QUOTE]

Yea I'm biased, coming from a nationalist balt who admires the his nation's collaboration with fascist butchers. You're a dishonest slanderer and a shitposter.

I almost feel for you, that post of yours is embarassing.