Hillary Clinton slams Russia for attempting to rebuild the Soviet Union - Polidicks

I don't know nearly anything about this sort of stuff. What would be the pros and cons if the soviet union was reformed? I've always been intensely curious but never really tried to partake in a discussion about it. And my schools did shit all to teach about it.

[QUOTE=Nicolas;38800646]People who ruled USSR now rule Russian Federation. Russian Federation is just re-designed USSR.[/QUOTE] There is a large gap between Gorbachev era politicians and present day Russian politicians. If you're referring to every Russian over the age of 20 being a former Soviet then I guess you're right on the basis of stating the obvious.

Conscript, here's a copypasta of my entire bibliography for my paper this semester if you want to know where else I've read these "weird" ideas from. [U]Secondary Sources[/U] Kramer, Mark. “The Demise of the Soviet Bloc”. The Journal of Modern History 83, no 4. (December 2011): 788-854 Nogee, Joseph L. and Robert H. Donaldson. Soviet Foreign Policy Since World War II. 3rd ed. New York: Pergamon Press, 1988. Strayer, Robert. Why Did the Soviet Union Collapse? Understanding Historical Change. Armonk: M. E. Sharp Inc., 1998. Reuveny, Rafael and Aseem Prakash. “The Afghanistan War and the Break Down of the Soviet Union”. Review of International Studies 25, no. 4 (October 1999): 693-708. Zubok, Vladislav M. A Failed Empire: The Soviet Union in the Cold War from Stalin to Gorbachev. Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 2009. [U]Primary Sources[/U] Melville, Andrei and Gail W. Lapidus, ed. The Glasnost Papers: Voices On Reform From Moscow. Boulder: Westview Press Inc., 1990. Tarasulo, Isaac J., ed. Perils of Perestroika: Viewpoints from the Soviet Press, 1989-1991. Wilmington: Scholarly Resources Inc., 1992. Soviet Embassy, Information Department. “Gorbachev-Shultz Meeting” News and Views from the USSR. (April 25, 1988). United States. “Treaty Between The United States of America And The Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics On The Elimination Of Their Intermediate-Ranged And Short- Ranged Missiles”. December 8, 1987. Soviet Embassy, Information Department. “Gorbachev-Shultz Meeting” News and Views from the USSR. (April 25, 1988). Vinocur, John. “Soviet Bloc Armies Begin War Games.” The New York Times, September 9th, 1980, sec. A. “U.S. Sent Brezhnev Message Reagan Cautioned Against Soviet Intervention,” The Spartanburg Herald, April 6th, 1981. “Documents of the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan,” e-dossier no. 4, Cold War International History Project, November 2001.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;38812351]Conscript, here's a copypasta of my entire bibliography for my paper this semester if you want to know where else I've read these "weird" ideas from. [U]Secondary Sources[/U] Kramer, Mark. “The Demise of the Soviet Bloc”. The Journal of Modern History 83, no 4. (December 2011): 788-854 Nogee, Joseph L. and Robert H. Donaldson. Soviet Foreign Policy Since World War II. 3rd ed. New York: Pergamon Press, 1988. Strayer, Robert. Why Did the Soviet Union Collapse? Understanding Historical Change. Armonk: M. E. Sharp Inc., 1998. Reuveny, Rafael and Aseem Prakash. “The Afghanistan War and the Break Down of the Soviet Union”. Review of International Studies 25, no. 4 (October 1999): 693-708. Zubok, Vladislav M. A Failed Empire: The Soviet Union in the Cold War from Stalin to Gorbachev. Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 2009. [U]Primary Sources[/U] Melville, Andrei and Gail W. Lapidus, ed. The Glasnost Papers: Voices On Reform From Moscow. Boulder: Westview Press Inc., 1990. Tarasulo, Isaac J., ed. Perils of Perestroika: Viewpoints from the Soviet Press, 1989-1991. Wilmington: Scholarly Resources Inc., 1992. Soviet Embassy, Information Department. “Gorbachev-Shultz Meeting” News and Views from the USSR. (April 25, 1988). United States. “Treaty Between The United States of America And The Union Of op Socialist Republics On The Elimination Of Their Intermediate-Ranged And Short- Ranged Missiles”. December 8, 1987. Soviet Embassy, Information Department. “Gorbachev-Shultz Meeting” News and Views from the USSR. (April 25, 1988). Vinocur, John. “Soviet Bloc Armies Begin War Games.” The New York Times, September 9th, 1980, sec. A. “U.S. Sent Brezhnev Message Reagan Cautioned Against Soviet Intervention,” The Spartanburg Herald, April 6th, 1981. “Documents of the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan,” e-dossier no. 4, Cold War International History Project, November 2001.[/QUOTE] A lot of your primary sources are dated to prior to collapse, doesn't really matter though since they just detail things like newspaper accounts. Regardless, I still want some citings for claims of defense spending increases from 80-85 and the entire polish solidarity account you described. Additionally, if you could, what is zubok's position on holodomor, molotov-ribbentrop pact, and the soviets in WW2? Also, how do you plan on describing gorby's relationship to the USSR?

[QUOTE=Megafan;38794074]So why praise the 'bravery' of conscripts for killing Soviet soldiers if they didn't want to be there? What could the point be?[/QUOTE] We don't prase them, we remember them for the fact that they were pushed into a war they weren't suppost to be in, in the first place. Then the other side cries "fascist" and say we "praise" them because we care about dead people.

[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;38814741]We don't prase them, we remember them for the fact that they were pushed into a war they weren't suppost to be in, in the first place. Then the other side cries "fascist" and say we "praise" them because we care about dead people.[/QUOTE] Is this not the same country that bans Russians from acquiring citizenship on the basis that they're Russian and treats them like 2nd class human beings. I'd say there is some bias here. Plus, those conscripts who 'didn't want to be there' are the ones who ratted out the Jews in Latvia.

[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;38814741]We don't prase them, we remember them for the fact that they were pushed into a war they weren't suppost to be in, in the first place. Then the other side cries "fascist" and say we "praise" them because we care about dead people.[/QUOTE] You are a fascist, and if germany didn't leave you to the soviets, the baltics would be in the axis. Seems to have mattered little anyway as you celebrate your part in the crusade against the USSR. Stop pretending you just support dead troops because they're dead. Do you really expect people to believe that after admitting you're a nationalist? [editline]13th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=laserguided;38814819]Is this not the same country that bans Russians from acquiring citizenship on the basis that they're Russian and treats them like 2nd class human beings.[/QUOTE] Worse, they do it knowing after the collapse of the USSR russia had to hand out citizenship to nationless people who couldn't get citizenship in the new states founded. The baltics are the worst example of chauvinism and a nationalist cesspool.

[QUOTE=Conscript;38814695]A lot of your primary sources are dated to prior to collapse, doesn't really matter though since they just detail things like newspaper accounts. [/quote] Well they wouldn't be [I]primary sources[/I] if they were dated [I]after[/I] the collapse. [QUOTE=Conscript;38814695]Regardless, I still want some citings for claims of defense spending increases from 80-85 and the entire polish solidarity account you described. [/quote] Holy shit I just gave you my whole bibliography. THAT IS a citation. You want me to mail you the damn books or something? [QUOTE=Conscript;38814695]Additionally, if you could, what is zubok's position on holodomor, molotov-ribbentrop pact, and the soviets in WW2?[/quote] I didn't read those chapters. I only read the chapters on the late 1970s+ I only had 3 months to do this paper and had a lot of other books and material to cover, along side other class assignments. Since my paper was on the collapse, WW II chapters had no use for me. [QUOTE=Conscript;38814695]Also, how do you plan on describing gorby's relationship to the USSR?[/QUOTE] What exactly do you mean? Whether he was significant or not, whether he was the cause of the collapse or not?

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;38814982]Well they wouldn't be [I]primary sources[/I] if they were dated [I]after[/I] the collapse. [/quote] That's just false mate. [Quote]Holy shit I just gave you my whole bibliography. THAT IS a citation. You want me to mail you the damn books or something?[/quote] I want a reference from the text to the particular source, not the orphaned list of them. [Quote]I only had 3 months to do this paper and had a lot of other books and material to cover, along side other class assignments. Since my paper was on the collapse, WW II chapters had no use for me.[/quote] A shame then. [Quote]What exactly do you mean? Whether he was significant or not, whether he was the cause of the collapse or not?[/QUOTE] I just want to know what you're going to write about him.

[QUOTE=Conscript;38815002]That's just false mate.[/quote] Please, do explain. [QUOTE=Conscript;38815002]I want a reference from the text to the particular source, not the orphaned list of them.[/quote] When I get back from work...which will probably be tomorrow afternoon. Leaving in 2 minutes. [QUOTE=Conscript;38815002]I just want to know what you're going to write about him.[/QUOTE] To sum it up, I said that he was an important cause to the demise but not the sole one. Though, what I wrote in my paper and what I believe personally aren't completely identical. My professor required us to create a thesis unique from other ones. So I did and backed it up. We're not graded (nor are scholars judged by) for being "right or wrong" so much as if we faithfully backed up our argument with sources and critical thinking into the topic.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;38815046]Please, do explain.[/quote] Here's an example: [url]http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/GTY-Penal_System.pdf[/url] [Quote]When I get back from work...which will probably be tomorrow afternoon. Leaving in 2 minutes.[/quote] Alrighty. [Quote]To sum it up, I said that he was an important cause to the demise but not the sole one. Though, what I wrote in my paper and what I believe personally aren't completely identical. My professor required us to create a thesis unique from other ones. So I did and backed it up. We're not graded (nor are scholars judged by) for being "right or wrong" so much as if we faithfully backed up our argument with sources and critical thinking into the topic.[/QUOTE] Sorry, but this is an awful system that favors propagandists more than those seeking the truth. Why even bother slapping 'peer reviewed' on a title when the reader will end up having to do the same job if he's interested in the truth. This is why cold war history is tained by greedy authors and publishers selling hysteria.

[QUOTE=Conscript;38814864]Stop pretending you just support dead troops because they're dead[/QUOTE] do you really think the average soldier was political? I can perfectly understand people revering those who fought for their country.

[QUOTE=trotskygrad;38815195]do you really think the average soldier was political? I can perfectly understand people revering those who fought for their country.[/QUOTE] Patriotism is political. The very fact you think 'fighting for your country' is, presumedly, an apolitical duty is evidence that it's very, very political. Maybe he should remember the deaths of the latvian riflemen, except he would say they weren't 'fighting for their country'. It's political.

[QUOTE=Conscript;38814695]A lot of your primary sources are dated to prior to collapse, doesn't really matter though since they just detail things like newspaper accounts. Regardless, I still want some citings for claims of defense spending increases from 80-85 and the entire polish solidarity account you described. Additionally, if you could, what is zubok's position on holodomor, molotov-ribbentrop pact, and the soviets in WW2? Also, how do you plan on describing gorby's relationship to the USSR?[/QUOTE] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts"]Stop doing this.[/URL]

[QUOTE=Conscript;38815418]Patriotism is political.[/QUOTE] "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;38815447][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts"]This is you.[/URL][/QUOTE] It sure would be if the debate was still going. Instead he offered me his bibliography, I offered my comments. I am not moving the goalposts, this is another field. [editline]13th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=trotskygrad;38815452]"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain[/QUOTE] Patriotism is just a hub of national chauvinism and silly ideas of supporting 'your team' in the 'game' of imperialist rivalry. See WW1.

[QUOTE=Conscript;38815472] Patriotism is just a hub of national chauvinism and silly ideas of supporting 'your team' in the 'game' of imperialist rivalry. See WW1.[/QUOTE] mmk I don't want to get into a semantics debate here but it's accepted that the military is supposed to be apolitical, especially on the lower echelons. Hence why people support the soldiers who are fighting in wars. A lot of people in the US support the troops in Iraq despite not supporting the concept behind the war.

[QUOTE=Conscript;38814864]You are a fascist, and if germany didn't leave you to the soviets, the baltics would be in the axis. Seems to have mattered little anyway as you celebrate your part in the crusade against the USSR. Stop pretending you just support dead troops because they're dead. Do you really expect people to believe that after admitting you're a nationalist? [editline]13th December 2012[/editline] Worse, they do it knowing after the collapse of the USSR russia had to hand out citizenship to nationless people who couldn't get citizenship in the new states founded. The baltics are the worst example of chauvinism and a nationalist cesspool.[/QUOTE] I love how you just get your knickers in a bunch and start calling me names to make your point valid. How about you, you little grease peddling infantile pillock, stop being such a dick, admit your defeat and stop beating a dead horse.You've lost, the USSR doesn't exist and it's not gonna exist again.You're the kind of person that the my people would call a "sarkanais". Our nation respects the Russian communities, we have Russian schools that are based to HELP the minority, our schools treat every minority the same - with respect, yet somehow you want to accuse of fucking them over ? You know who gets fucked over ? Assholes who cant' integrate in our society, learn our language and just start to bastardize our nation because they got called names for being a cunt to us. How about YOU, get your facts right, stop listening to biased points of view and get back to the real world where shit isn't made up by a bunch of power hungry fat arses thinking they own the planet.

[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;38815564]I love how you just get your knickers in a bunch and start calling me names to make your point valid. How about you, you little grease peddling infantile pillock, stop being such a dick, admit your defeat and stop beating a dead horse.You've lost, the USSR doesn't exist and it's not gonna exist again.You're the kind of person that the my people would call a "sarkanais". [B]Our nation respects the Russian communities[/B], we have Russian schools that are based to HELP the minority, our schools treat every minority the same - with respect, yet somehow you want to accuse of fucking them over ? You know who gets fucked over ? Assholes who cant' integrate in our society, learn our language and just start to bastardize our nation because they got called names for being a cunt to us. How about YOU, get your facts right, stop listening to biased points of view and get back to the real world where shit isn't made up by a bunch of power hungry fat arses thinking they own the planet.[/QUOTE] Then why did they reject a referendum to make the Russians in Latvia citizens? 312,000 people in Latvia are non-citizens, thus not allowed to work or be a civil servant.

[QUOTE=laserguided;38815614]Then why did they reject a referendum to make the Russians in Latvia citizens?[/QUOTE] Because suddenly everyone gets to be a Russian because he is in Latvian territory ? Does that mean every single undocumented immigrant in every nation gets to be a citizen because there are a lot of them and they are there ? Learn the language, integrate, apply for citizenship.It's that simple. [QUOTE=laserguided;38815614]312,000 people in Latvia are non-citizens, thus not allowed to work or be a civil servant.[/QUOTE] How is this our problem ?

[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;38815564]I love how you just get your knickers in a bunch and start calling me names to make your point valid. How about you, you little grease peddling infantile pillock, stop being such a dick, admit your defeat and stop beating a dead horse.You've lost, the USSR doesn't exist and it's not gonna exist again.You're the kind of person that the my people would call a "sarkanais". Our nation respects the Russian communities, we have Russian schools that are based to HELP the minority, our schools treat every minority the same - with respect, yet somehow you want to accuse of fucking them over ? You know who gets fucked over ? Assholes who cant' integrate in our society, learn our language and just start to bastardize our nation because they got called names for being a cunt to us. How about YOU, get your facts right, stop listening to biased points of view and get back to the real world where shit isn't made up by a bunch of power hungry fat arses thinking they own the planet.[/QUOTE] Lol all I called you was a fascist, which you are. Stop shitting yourself, I wasn't overreacting but now you are. [editline]13th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Itsjustguy;38815639]Because suddenly everyone gets to be a Russian because he is in Latvian territory ? Does that mean every single undocumented immigrant in every nation gets to be a citizen because there are a lot of them and they are there ? Learn the language, integrate, apply for citizenship.It's that simple. How is this our problem ?[/QUOTE] This is why nationalists should die and their parties outlawed.

[QUOTE=Conscript;38815698]Lol all I called you was a fascist, which you are. Stop shitting yourself, I wasn't overreacting but now you are. [editline]13th December 2012[/editline] This is why [B]nationalists should die and their parties outlawed[/B].[/QUOTE] You just went full retard. God, you're just like those rednecks that call Obama a communist, fascist and nazi the same time.

[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;38815639]Because suddenly everyone gets to be a Russian because he is in Latvian territory ? Does that mean every single undocumented immigrant in every nation gets to be a citizen because there are a lot of them and they are there ? Learn the language, integrate, apply for citizenship.It's that simple. How is this our problem ?[/QUOTE] Because they live in Latvia. Maybe from my point of view I see all people as equal, but you nor Latvia do not? "Naturalization" is garbage, citizenship test should simply state "Do you consider yourself a Latvian citizen? yes or no.".

[QUOTE=laserguided;38815720]"Naturalization" is garbage, citizenship test should simply state "Do you consider yourself a Latvian citizen? yes or no.".[/QUOTE] hahahhahahaha really? you can't be serious.

[QUOTE=laserguided;38815720]Because they live in Latvia. Maybe from my point of view I see all people as equal, but you nor Latvia do not? "Naturalization" is garbage, citizenship test should simply state "Do you consider yourself a Latvian citizen? [B]yes or no[/B].".[/QUOTE] And this is why you probably will never work in a political office. I can imagine "Hello, sir, do you think you're a American citizen ?" "Que?" "American?" "Si !" "Here is your passport as a proud American !"

[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;38815750]And this is why you probably will never work in a political office. I can imagine "Hello, sir, do you think you're a American citizen ?" "Que?" "American?" "Si !" "Here is your passport as a proud American !"[/QUOTE] That sounds like a sound and quick process. [editline]13th December 2012[/editline] No threat to national security whatsoever.

[QUOTE=laserguided;38815765]That sounds like a sound and quick process.[/QUOTE] Oh, i get it, you're a troll. That is the only explanation.

[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;38815717]You just went full retard. God, you're just like those rednecks that call Obama a communist, fascist and nazi the same time.[/QUOTE] That doesn't even make sense. Welcome to ignore nationalist scum

[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;38815783]Oh, i get it, you're a troll. That is the only explanation.[/QUOTE] It was a joke.

[QUOTE=Conscript;38815792]That doesn't even make sense. Welcome to ignore nationalist scum[/QUOTE] Conscript: putting nationalist, imperialist, capitalist scum on ignore, one at a time! [quote][I]Stand up, damned of the Earth Stand up, prisoners of starvation Reason thunders in its volcano This is the eruption of the end. Of the past let us make a clean slate Enslaved masses, stand up, stand up. The world is about to change its foundation We are nothing, let us be all. |: This is the final struggle Let us group together, and tomorrow The Internationale Will be the human race. :| ...[/I] [/quote]