Trump administration rolls back protections for people in default on student loans
111 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52030709]Chonch isn't totally off-base, but his perspective is coming across as a bit naive, at best. If investment strategies and entrepreneurial endeavors are to be the only viable means of upward mobility, as Chonch seems to be suggesting, then we are in incredibly dire straits as a country.
Furthermore, as you say, risk is not something to just be blindly accepted, but to be mitigated through every reasonable means. I am a real estate investor, and I would [B]never[/B] get involved with a deal that I was uncertain about. If I cannot quantify and calculate every probable risk, and structure my deal as to minimize the odds of loss and maximize my chances to profit within a very specific range, then I simply won't get involved in the deal.
If somebody were to sit down and front of me and ask me to invest on nothing more than some hackneyed line about being bold enough to accept great risk, as Chonch is, I'd laugh and tell him to bring me some numbers next time.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;52030711]this is such meaningless appeal to emotion. the formation of the country was risky, yes, and so was pretty much everything else in 16th century life. what exactly is the argument here? how does that factor into policy making in 2017? should we make things riskier for the sake of tradition? it's just plain absurd no matter how you look at it[/QUOTE]
Let me clarify as best as I can: risk should not be the sole consideration in appraising a new venture, in any field. This in response to...
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52030652]Yes? They're risky as shit, dude.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52030716]Because the majority of companies don't care dude
Maybe it's massively different in the states(but I don't believe so) but that's how it is here in many ways.
I have heard tell of all sorts of horror stories about this very subject.
There is no method of validating your work experience for the military. [B]You can have worked in IT(my friend worked in military IT) and the companies you apply to may very well not view that as applicable job experience[/B].[/QUOTE]
This is entirely situational and depends on the work you do, as is the case with anything you put on your resume. I can put that I interned as an accounting assistant with a local nonprofit, which I did, and while a small to midsized company may say "hey, that's cool", larger companies may not see it as enough.
Again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm advising that speaking in absolutes just makes you wrong, because it depends on what you did, how long you did it, what references you got, etc. [B]just like any experience.[/B]
[QUOTE=Chonch;52030720]Risk should not be the sole consideration in appraising a new venture, in any field.[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone is suggesting it should be. Just stating that there are limits to how much risk someone is willing to take, and it differs from person to person.
[QUOTE=Chonch;52030720]Let me clarify as best as I can: risk should not be the sole consideration in appraising a new venture, in any field. This in response to...[/QUOTE]
The sole? Maybe not. Yet, risk should absolutely be the [B]first[/B], and arguably [I]most important[/I], consideration. There's a huge difference between ignoring risk and charging ahead, as you seem to be arguing, and proceeding with caution in spite of certain risks after taking every reasonable measure to mitigate them.
An investor who doesn't quantify risk and carefully factor it into his investment deals isn't going to be an investor for long.
[QUOTE=Chonch;52030683]I work in finance--trust me when I say I understand fully the concepts of risk. Not everyone needs to do the things I described, that's why they are [U] options[/U]. Not everyone gets student loans either, nor does everyone have terrible debt from borrowing irresponsibly or just plain defaulting either. You're following these ideas to absolute conclusions and that's just not correct.
Then again, you've also entirely lost me on where you're going with this.[/QUOTE]
You working in finance explains your lack of human empathy and uncaring for your fellow man. Not everyone can do that, not everyone wants to be in finance, not everyone wants to run the risk of getting shot and bleeding out in some shit hole halfway across the globe. It's ignorant to hurt someone because they want a better education. While not everyone has the chance or will to do anything you said. It's the older generation that put us in this hole. Back in the 60s for instance the Uc systems were free in California. The government used to pay to get it's people educated, but now they literally don't care and funnel that money into war. You're literally taught in high school to prepare for college and that if you only have a high school degree you'll be making 1/3 of what people with degrees get. The older generation is to blame for it simply because their elimination of well paying, unskilled labor is the thing to blame for it all. This just hurts the liberal demographic if anything else.
I just want to be a teacher...is that too much to ask?
[QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;52030772]You working in finance explains your lack of human empathy and uncaring for your fellow man. Not everyone can do that, not everyone wants to be in finance, not everyone wants to run the risk of getting shot and bleeding out in some shit hole halfway across the globe. It's ignorant to hurt someone because they want a better education. While not everyone has the chance or will to do anything you said. It's the older generation that put us in this hole. Back in the 60s for instance the Uc systems were free in California. The government used to pay to get it's people educated, but now they literally don't care and funnel that money into war. You're literally taught in high school to prepare for college and that if you only have a high school degree you'll be making 1/3 of what people with degrees get. The older [B]generation is to blame for it simply because their elimination of well paying, unskilled labor is the thing to blame for it all[/B]. This just hurts the liberal demographic if anything else.[/QUOTE]
wot
i mean technically since they created the technology they are responsible for rising efficiency and automation but whew.
[QUOTE=Chonch;52030683]I work in finance--trust me when I say I understand fully the concepts of risk. Not everyone needs to do the things I described, that's why they are [U] options[/U]. Not everyone gets student loans either, nor does everyone have terrible debt from borrowing irresponsibly or just plain defaulting either. You're following these ideas to absolute conclusions and that's just not correct.
Then again, you've also entirely lost me on where you're going with this.[/QUOTE]
you understand the concept of risk as it applies to your industry not to daily lives or larger society.
[QUOTE=Chonch;52030659]And? This country was built by folks taking risks. College is a risk. Loans are a risk. If you're adverse to risk, you're not going to get far in life.[/QUOTE]
And this here is the fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals.
Conservatives go "I had a hard life, so my children should too"
Liberals go "I had a hard life, so I'll make damn sure my kids have it just a little easier"
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52030790]And this here is the fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals.
Conservatives go "I had a hard life, so my children should too"
Liberals go "I had a hard life, so I'll make damn sure my kids have it just a little easier"[/QUOTE]
okay this is getting a bit ridiculous
[QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;52030772]You working in finance explains your lack of human empathy and uncaring for your fellow man. Not everyone can do that, not everyone wants to be in finance, not everyone wants to run the risk of getting shot and bleeding out in some shit hole halfway across the globe. It's ignorant to hurt someone because they want a better education. While not everyone has the chance or will to do anything you said. It's the older generation that put us in this hole. Back in the 60s for instance the Uc systems were free in California. The government used to pay to get it's people educated, but now they literally don't care and funnel that money into war. You're literally taught in high school to prepare for college and that if you only have a high school degree you'll be making 1/3 of what people with degrees get. The older generation is to blame for it simply because their elimination of well paying, unskilled labor is the thing to blame for it all. This just hurts the liberal demographic if anything else.[/QUOTE]
lol @ being in finance = no empathy, movie stereotypes arent reality
Joining the military is a valid option for poor people if they want to earn a lot of money and get free college. The chances of actually getting into combat are very small, most of the military is involved in logistics.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52030775]I just want to be a teacher...is that too much to ask?[/QUOTE]
On the contrary, it's not enough risk. Do you think that Benjamin Franklin cared about risk when he invented lightning and and turned England into America? Wanting to be a teacher is thinking like a coward: you need to come up with a way for people not to need teachers anymore! Start mixing together household cleaners, and injecting them into your eyeteeth, until you feel yourself developing superhuman intelligence.
[QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;52030772]You working in finance explains your lack of human empathy and uncaring for your fellow man. [/QUOTE]
Finance is the guy down the street who manages the school pension fund, the office that holds your grandma's retirement savings, your health insurance company. Peddling this nonsense gets you nowhere. Don't post like this.
[QUOTE=Sableye;52030783]you understand the concept of risk as it applies to your industry not to daily lives or larger society.[/QUOTE]
It's one and the same, but at risk of going too far off topic I'd ask you to explain it to me in your understanding.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52030790]And this here is the fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals.
Conservatives go "I had a hard life, so my children should too"
Liberals go "I had a hard life, so I'll make damn sure my kids have it just a little easier"[/QUOTE]
I am not a vessel for your partisan qualms, please don't scapegoat me so.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52030790]And this here is the fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals.
Conservatives go "I had a hard life, so my children should too"
Liberals go "I had a hard life, so I'll make damn sure my kids have it just a little easier"[/QUOTE]
you got it man, conservatives = unfeeling uncaring robots who dont care about anything
how is it like living in such a black and white version of reality?
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52030795]okay this is getting a bit ridiculous[/QUOTE]
What the ACTUAL FUCK else is someone supposed to take from that post?
"This country was built by folks taking risks. College is a risk. Loans are a risk. If you're adverse to risk, you're not going to get far in life."
Why should it be a risk? Here in Estland we've got free education, and god damn it works.
[editline]30th March 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Svinnik;52030825]you got it man, conservatives = unfeeling uncaring robots who dont care about anything
how is it like living in such a black and white version of reality?[/QUOTE]
Pretty nice, especially since I'm right in this case.
I never said "uncaring or unfeeling" and that's on you for putting words in my mouth.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52030827]What the ACTUAL FUCK else is someone supposed to take from that post?
"This country was built by folks taking risks. College is a risk. Loans are a risk. If you're adverse to risk, you're not going to get far in life."
Why should it be a risk? Here in Estland we've got free education, and god damn it works.
[/QUOTE]
I'm not defending his viewpoint, I think it's silly.
But saying that about conservatives is just wacky. They generally oppose government action and redistributive policies, but a massive part of the american dream cherished by them is quite literally is that you work hard so that you can give your kids what you couldn't have.
[QUOTE=Chonch;52030809]
I am not a vessel for your partisan qualms, please don't scapegoat me so.[/QUOTE]
I'm just reflecting your [B]literal own words[/B] back at you.
You said, literally, "This country was built by folks taking risks. If you're adverse to risk, you're not going to get far in life."
Which means "the previous generations took risks, so you should too if you want to not be a burger flipper at Mickey Dee's"
While I would say "The previous generations took risks, so how can we give them a kickstart in life without giving them a statistically increased chance of suicide and depression because of redonkulously inflated student debt, and also free healthcare"
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52030835]I'm not defending his viewpoint, I think it's silly.
But saying that about conservatives is just wacky. They generally oppose government action and redistributive policies, but a massive part of the american dream cherished by them is quite literally is that you work hard so that you can give your kids what you couldn't have.[/QUOTE]
Which is why the current administration seems hell bent on making life as hard for kids as possible? Do remember what thread we're in.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52030840]I'm just reflecting your [B]literal own words[/B] back at you.
You said, literally, "This country was built by folks taking risks. If you're adverse to risk, you're not going to get far in life."
Which means "the previous generations took risks, so you should too if you want to not be a burger flipper at Mickey Dee's"
While I would say "The previous generations took risks, so how can we give them a kickstart in life without giving them a statistically increased chance of suicide and depression because of redonkulously inflated student debt, and also free healthcare"[/QUOTE]
If that was what I had meant, I would have posted that instead. You are reading too far into this.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52030843]Which is why the current administration seems hell bent on making life as hard for kids as possible? Do remember what thread we're in.[/QUOTE]
The key word is "you give."
They want the impetus to fall on the parents to put aside money, dedicate time to raising, etc. to give their kid strong opportunity.
For example one might say that what Trump did here is a good thing because in the long run it should have the effect of bringing college costs down as loans become less desirable (shifting demand.)
And again, just playing devils advocate. It's good to know what the actual viewpoint of your opposition is right?
Personally, I see education as having benefits extending well beyond individual achievement. Education is a foundational building block for a better society in general. A more educated populace reaches higher, achieves more, creates more wealth, and commits less crime. Fighting to make education less accessible is fighting to make society less capable as far as I'm concerned.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52030691]Sorry
You're wrong.
They are not marketable skills.
People who come out of the military are seen as having no skills by corporations and companies at large and they have no work experience. You have no method of validating your work experience. Yes, that's somewhat shameful, but there's a sense to it.
I wish you would not peddle a lie as a truth.[/QUOTE]
Haha dude there are so many markets that look specifically for vets. Private security, LEO on the local and federal level, any sort of defense contractor if you're the technical type, etc.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52030790]And this here is the fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals.
Conservatives go "I had a hard life, so my children should too"
Liberals go "I had a hard life, so I'll make damn sure my kids have it just a little easier"[/QUOTE]
Where exactly are you getting this narrative from? Did you survey conservative and liberal parents?
[QUOTE=Chonch;52030809]Finance is the guy down the street who manages the school pension fund, the office that holds your grandma's retirement savings, your health insurance company. Peddling this nonsense gets you nowhere. Don't post like this.
It's one and the same, but at risk of going too far off topic I'd ask you to explain it to me in your understanding.
I am not a vessel for your partisan qualms, please don't scapegoat me so.[/QUOTE]
I genuinely wish you'd stop posting. You only ever play devil's advocate for the sake of doing so and to cause a stir.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;52030436]It will motive students to work harder! Those pesky liberals need to learn how to pull themselves up by their bootstraps! /s[/QUOTE]
Only liberals go to college. Smart republicans have trust funds.
[QUOTE=Chonch;52030861]If that was what I had meant, I would have posted that instead. You are reading too far into this.[/QUOTE]
You're really not helping matters when you state that someone's looking to far into it but don't bother trying to clarify things at all. If what EcksDee interpreted it as is wrong then maybe you should try rewording it so it doesn't come across incorrectly since clearly there's a breakdown in communication?
-snip, dumb-
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52030843]Which is why the current administration seems hell bent on making life as hard for kids as possible? Do remember what thread we're in.[/QUOTE]
the current administration =/= all conservatives
i don't usually mind these generalizations i see on facepunch because they tend to be aimed towards the republican establishment in america, specifically. but your post is pretty much attacking all everyday conservatives which is quite disgusting
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;52031001]the current administration =/= all conservatives
i don't usually mind these generalizations i see on facepunch because they tend to be aimed towards the republican establishment in america, specifically. but your post is pretty much attacking all everyday conservatives which is quite disgusting[/QUOTE]
Fine whatever, I'll amend my statement, the current conservative establishment instead of conservatives. Retcon woo.
Still think the essence of the statement stands to some extent though.
[editline]30th March 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Chonch;52030861]If that was what I had meant, I would have posted that instead. You are reading too far into this.[/QUOTE]
Well then you legit need to do some clarification cause legit, we can look at it beat by beat.
"This country was built by folks taking risks. If you're adverse to risk, you're not going to get far in life."
What EXACTLY am I supposed to get by that, because "If you're adverse to" means "If you don't do" or "If you are against"
So from that phrase I know that you mean "If you're not gonna take risks, you're not gonna X"
So what do you mean by "Get far in life". Does getting far in life mean being stuck in a dead end job with 50k in debt? Cause if that's what you mean then tbh you're damn right since that's generally what it seems to lead to since you have a shrinking middle class and increasing income inequality.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52030648]Oh boy, four years to serve the ethically perfect United States of America, what an honor.
You get to travel so much, you don't even have to spend time with your family! I hope you don't have children, because they won't have a father for months out of the year.
Sorry, but you sound like a recruiter right now.[/QUOTE]
As someone who doesn't have much family and is still early twenties it's fucking great to travel. If I didn't join I would lived and died in one state working shit end retail. Best part is getting out and going to college after with little to no debt.
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