Resturant Owner Defends "Muslims Get Out" Sign, Says there was not enough room for "Extremists" - Polidicks

- whoops i didn't read the article properly -

[QUOTE=Maadz;51108165]look, while racism is prominent against muslims right now, even here in the forums, i highly doubt it will EVER get as bad as the holocaust[/QUOTE] It took at least 15 years of antisemitism after World War I for the Nazi party to come to power. If we don't take steps to prevent things like this, it could happen again. Anti-Muslim hatred and violence is slowly becoming legitimized. A whole new Holocaust is unlikely, but systematic oppression is unfortunately not.

[QUOTE=GordonZombie;51108175]This sounds like a case of this guy going "gas the kikes does not objectively mean kill the jews" and now he's trying to get out of it. His argument is flimsy at best if he really wanted he could've put "Extremists Get Out" and foregone the term "Muslims" if that was his true intent.[/QUOTE] that guy was a riot, even his refugee camp posts were gold I agree, though, people are stupid, but I don't believe that someone would think "muslims get out" would be interpreted as "muslim extremists get out"

He is obviously a fool and his business acumen stinks.

[QUOTE=Maadz;51108165]look, while racism is prominent against muslims right now, even here in the forums, i highly doubt it will EVER get as bad as the holocaust[/QUOTE] I don't think Germans at the time thought anything as bad as the holocaust would happen either. That being said, I don't think it's likely either given just how difficult it would be to cover up to the extent the Nazis did.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51108078]"hey man hes just free speaking his mind, quit being such a bigot" "the state is the real discriminator for taking away his right to discriminate" [b]"2nd amendment"[/b] "political correctness gone mad" "race war" etcetc[/QUOTE] First Amendment. Second Amendment deals with the right to bear arms.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51108069]I'm surprised he wasn't arrested for this - dude's a coward for promoting hate and violence before turning around and claiming he's been misrepresented.[/QUOTE] Dood put up a sign that said "muslims get out", not "kill all niggers and non whites". The guy is a royal piece of shit but its hardly inciting violence.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51109807]Dood put up a sign that said "muslims get out", not "kill all niggers and non whites". The guy is a royal piece of shit but its hardly inciting violence.[/QUOTE] it's still a really blatant hate crime that should carry a penalty for it.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51109818]it's still a really blatant hate crime that should carry a penalty for it.[/QUOTE] Restricting speech is a slippery slope bud. Our freedom of speech covers people like this so they can be bigots, and people like me to call him a bigot. I dont like what he has to say but he still deserves the right to say it.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51109877]Restricting speech is a slippery slope bud. Our freedom of speech covers people like this so they can be bigots, and people like me to call him a bigot. I dont like what he has to say but he still deserves the right to say it.[/QUOTE] no there's a distinct difference between being a bigot and calling people bigots lol, there's no slippery slope here

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51109894]No its not, restricting speech has well defined boundaries, and this isnt "speech" as in personal opinions, it is a fucking restaurant sign Do you think I can put up a billboard saying "fucking niggerfaggot go back to africa" and get away with it?[/QUOTE] Do you think a sign on a privately owned and operated business is not free speech? You could put up a billboard that says that, assuming you can find a company to put it up for you, and wouldnt suffer legal consequences for it. But just like the guy with restaurant sign, youll face consequences of a differemt sort. This guy will probably go out of business because of his bigotry and if you put a sign like that up, youd probably get run out of town. [editline]26th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Headhumpy;51109925]no there's a distinct difference between being a bigot and calling people bigots lol, there's no slippery slope here[/QUOTE] The slippery slope is a government controlling what we can and cant say. Do you honestly think thats a good thing? Maybe this is a exclusively American mindset, but I trust my governmwnt about as much as I trust Flint Michigan tap water.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51108089] The holocaust didn't start with some guys say in a room saying "lets gas em" (some like the kaiser said that) it started out with dehumanization and normalization of discrimination. Then when food got short jews were the ones starved and then the killing became policy.[/QUOTE] Technically the holocaust started with jews in high places, like for example in the communist party, making Germany a terrible place to live. It sure didn't start with "let's gas them" but it didn't start with "boy I sure don't care for those jews for no reason other than I'm white thus racist" either. That doesn't justify the holocaust, but don't pretend the hatred for jews just sprung out of nowhere. And please don't give me the shitty "it's because muh jesus" excuse either, Nietzsche lamented the death of god long before the work camps were even considered. The dislike of muslims doesn't come from nothing either, it's not just the extremists, moderate Islam isn't compatible with our western values either. Sure this wouldn't excuse mass killings of muslims, but maybe one can cut one restaurant-owner who will just lose money by doing this, some slack.

Yeah I do disagree with fines for swearing on TV actually

man I sure hope I never have to live in a society where I am allowed to go around in the streets yelling "fuck niggers" and get no repercussions for it

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51110133]man I sure hope I never have to live in a society where I am allowed to go around in the streets yelling "fuck niggers" and get no repercussions for it[/QUOTE] There are repercussions - at best you end up an outcast, at worst you wind up in the hospital It's not the government's place to tell anyone how to think or talk until they're directly obstructing another individual's rights [editline]26th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Trebgarta;51110124]What about gore or nudity? Maybe this is shifting goalposts for you, but I personally am for some regulation, but not against swearing particularly.[/QUOTE] What about it? It'd show up where appropriate if not regulated by outdated prudish laws; you think there'd be shocking scenes of dismemberment in the middle of Caillou just because there's no laws about it? Doubtful honestly.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51110124] What about gore or nudity? Maybe this is shifting goalposts for you, but I personally am for some regulation, but not against swearing particularly.[/QUOTE] We already have both of those fairly prevalent on television shows, especially those which broadcast movies like the Sci-fi channel. German and American views on what constitutes free speech are completely different. Around here, pretty much the only things not protected under free speech are threats, harassment, or inciting violence.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51110124]Are you saying the dislike is justified and grounded? Like, because "muslims kill people" or "muslims brought down dem towers" or "commie party leader happened to be a jew" are valid reasons? [/QUOTE] It was about all of the commie party leaders and several other high positions, but that's beside the point. No [I]I[/I] do not think it is justified, [I]I[/I] just think maybe the owner shouldn't be demonized for this particular instance. And it's not just those typical reasons you gave Trebgarta, again, Islam goes against some pretty basic values that have become ingrained in western civilization over many hundreds of years. The dislike of this religion/culture/political system in one is justified, that doesn't mean that what the owner did was justified. Nor was the detainment of the jews justified. All it means is that the dislike didn't suddenly overcome people because they are inherently evil. What the restaurant owner did was dumb, but emotions are running high in the USA.

[QUOTE=nekon;51110090]Technically the holocaust started with jews in high places, like for example in the communist party, making Germany a terrible place to live. It sure didn't start with "let's gas them" but it didn't start with "boy I sure don't care for those jews for no reason other than I'm white thus racist" either. That doesn't justify the holocaust, but don't pretend the hatred for jews just sprung out of nowhere. And please don't give me the shitty "it's because muh jesus" excuse either, Nietzsche lamented the death of god long before the work camps were even considered.[/quote] Anti semitism had been growing p big for years there. During the Russian Revolution loads of jews fled to Europe, Brits hated the jews coming over and sought a "partial solution". Jews have been hated for centuries, it was systematic scapegoating. Kings would disallow the jews from working in anything other than tax collecting so people hated them, then they would periodically crack down on them for popularity/taking their stuff. The crusades killed 1000s of jews. Antisemitism was nothing new but if you pair antisemitism with say a famine then the jews/hated group will be among the first to starve. It would have started with "they're greedy" (which is an attitude held by people here VERY commonly, if someone is stingey people will often say they're a jew) then it woulda progressed into you can't trust them then into "they're parasites" then into "they're subhuman" then into "let them starve first we're more important" then into "if they're locked up in camps and dying from starvation anyway, might as well speed up the process" Antisemitism runs pretty deep in europe but the nazis certainly helped stir it up. Jews were a convenient scapegoat once the nazis had run out of communist big wigs. [quote]The dislike of muslims doesn't come from nothing either, it's not just the extremists, moderate Islam isn't compatible with our western values either.[/quote] Thats a pretty sweeping statement. I know several moderate muslims who fit perfectly into the UK, (aside from not drinking in pub) most of the muslims I know are this sort of moderate. It is the religious fundamentalist who isn't 100% compatible and even then you must be careful, I know a Wahhabi and hes the nicest guy, to him hes just a practicing muslim who wants other people to be happy. I dare say most of the muslims I know are more compatible with modern "british values" than some conservative Christians. Remember the ukip asswipe who blamed the floods on gay marriage and gods punishment. I also put "british values" in speech marks because 40 years ago it would have been a british value to be systematically misogynistic and a homophobe. Provided they interpret the text allegorically and do away with the anti gay/woman hate stuff they'll be ite. [quote]Sure this wouldn't excuse mass killings of muslims, but maybe one can cut one restaurant-owner who will just lose money by doing this, some slack.[/QUOTE] Give him an inch and he'll take a mile. It'll be like segregation part 2 only this time it'll be "I'm not racist its just hes got brown skin and that makes me think hes a muslim". I feel my typing in this has been pretty messy, I hope you can read it. Bed time.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51110102]Thats fucked up. Vigilante justice. If I write that on a billboard I should be fined. And have a criminal record saying I hate niggers. If I say that personally then of course I wont be prosecuted because it is not a slippery slope. Mass media such as billboards need to be regulated. You have federal regulation of TV in America. If they swear in daytime they are fined. Do you disagree with that too? Yes it is your inner paranoid America-drois talking. Look at the rest of the civilized world before you make baseless assumptions[/QUOTE] Im not saying vigilante justice is a solution to such issues. In the case of this guys business, people will stop eating there as a form of protest and cause him to go out of business. In the case of your billboard theory, it would probably end up on the news and you would probably become a social outcast and completely unhirable because youre that guy who put up a racist billboard. I dont know if youve seen the shit the US govt has done in recent years, but I think its absolutely reasonable to not trust the US govt.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51110124]Are you saying the dislike is justified and grounded? Like, because "muslims kill people" or "muslims brought down dem towers" or "commie party leader happened to be a jew" are valid reasons? Of course people rationalize it one way or another when they do it, but do [I]you[/I] think dislike of the average member of those communities is justified? Reasons dont matter as long as they arent valid, sound, reasonable reasons, do you think they are? Do you think I am in the right disliking the average Muslim because of terrorists? [editline]26th September 2016[/editline] What about gore or nudity? Maybe this is shifting goalposts for you, but I personally am for some regulation, but not against swearing particularly.[/QUOTE] If people dont want to see gore, nudity, or profanity on TV, then they wont watch those shows and theyll get cut off. This kind of thing self regulates. TV is a business, no one can really afford to run a TV show just to piss people off.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51110221]I feel my typing in this has been pretty messy, I hope you can read it. Bed time.[/QUOTE] Probably just in your head, could read it fine. I myself am pretty sleepy but sure, hatred or dislike of jews hasn't always been completely justified but there's always a partial truth too. But it see what you mean about the "give an inch take a mile" and agree to an extent, but I doubt (hope?) this is one case where it won't go that far. The sociopolitical effects of the "national socialist explosion" are still being felt today and show no signs of slowing down, another event similar to the holocaust or even the segregation in the USA seems unlikely in the near future. Sleep well mDeceiver79 [QUOTE=Trebgarta;51110253]The restaurant owner is a massive bigot deserving every hate he gets. The line of which he deserves and is too much is blurry, sorry, you dont get to determine it. Okay so you think dislike of Muslims is justified, even though Islam/Muslims "in one" doesnt exist and is a shittier category invented by ignorant westerners to direct their anger and hatred after terrorist attacks to a focal point, cool, what about dislike of Jews? Is that justified? Do you know what blood libel is?[/QUOTE] Who gets to determine the line? A mob of bloodthirsty socjus warriors? You? No it's for each and every man to determine where this line is drawn for this person and then act accordingly. I merely aired my opinion. It can be justified to an extent, and again that's the dislike of jews. I will not be one to police thoughts. Of course turning this thinking into actions that hurt people is detestable in our modern civilization. [editline]gtkrwn[/editline] Yes I am very aware of what blood [I]libel[/I] is.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51110303]Counting on the current people's response instead of a working legal system for these things, I just dont understand it. When you say "fuck niggers" it makes you unhirable, but when you say "fuck muslims" it is OK, in some occasions. Public has no obligation to be just, to combat all discrimination equally. If a person hates the Jews, and enough public hates the Jews too, person wont be an outcast, and growth of antisemitism would proceed, even though a justice system response would undercut it, you wont have that because you cant trust the damn feds. Saying "it wouldnt happen anyway" is no grounds for lawmaking, what if it does happen? Then you have no laws to deem the network responsible for showing gore and violence to children. [editline]26th September 2016[/editline] Kids dont know that better. TV is mass media available at all times to all people, it is not a simple business like a kosher shop around the corner. It doesn't "self-regulate", that is why even the country whose holiest value is "freedom" regulates it to the extremes.[/QUOTE] Youre a blind fool if you think the government restricting speech is going to make racism, bigotry, or any other social issue disappear. If anything its going to increase it. You made an example of antisemitism, and a growing mass hate being unchecked. In the early 1900s all the way up to the 60s, the US had a very fervent hate for blacks. Its for the most part gone and its not because the feds implimented a law making it illegal to say "nigger". Social progress solved that issue on its own. And who said that bigotry against Muslims is OK? Its clearly not because this news article exists and this guy has fucking protesters outside his restaurant. Dont be fooled by the loud voices and talking heads in US media, the bigotry againsy Islam and immigrants in general is a hugely overplayed issue. On the subject of TV, if you dont want your kid to watch a TV show, dont let them watch it. There is a multitude of ways to implimemt that. I like how you immediately went to"think of the children!" Though. Your whole argument here is that things dont regulate themselves when, they clearly have. The only interventiom the US govt has done against racism is the restoration of basic human rights for blacks and implimentation of hate crime laws. You certainly dont see the bigotry and hate you saw 50 years ago despite complete lack of any sort of speech restrictions or censorship. My issue with censorship is that it not only goes against the founding principles of my country, but it also lays the foundation for oppression. Misguided or malicious, censorship is never a good thing.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51113886] Youre a blind fool if you think the government restricting speech is going to make racism, bigotry, or any other social issue disappear. If anything its going to increase it. You made an example of antisemitism, and a growing mass hate being unchecked. In the early 1900s all the way up to the 60s, the US had a very fervent hate for blacks. Its for the most part gone and its not because the feds implimented a law making it illegal to say "nigger". Social progress solved that issue on its own. My issue with censorship is that it not only goes against the founding principles of my country, but it also lays the foundation for oppression. Misguided or malicious, censorship is never a good thing.[/QUOTE] Just because you no longer stamp "negro" on birth certificates doesn't mean the US has solved its racism problem. You speak in favor of absolute free speech, stating that society is solving that racism problem on its own, and anything else would be oppression, when the US is still known around the globe for its massive racism problem? I mean, for fuck's sake, you got Trump. You do see the irony here, right? edit: Also this whole "going away" argument is ridiculous. Nobody is saying that it will make racism go away. But making racism illegal might be a good thing, since it will at least give people a legal way to defend themselves. [QUOTE]"There are repercussions - at best you end up an outcast, at worst you wind up in the hospital"[/QUOTE] Great idea! Hey, if you someone calls you a nigger just break their jaw. Because vigilantism and violence always work out so well.

[QUOTE=uber.;51115426]Great idea! Hey, if you someone calls you a nigger just break their jaw. Because vigilantism and violence always work out so well.[/QUOTE] Especially if calling someone a nigger is legal while breaking someones jaw isn't :v: that'll end well

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51110133]man I sure hope I never have to live in a society where I am allowed to go around in the streets yelling "fuck niggers" and get no repercussions for it[/QUOTE] I sure hope I never have to live in a society where the government will fine me or throw me in jail for expressing controversial or socially unacceptable opinions. Frankly, I'm surprised that so many people agree with you and actually [I]like[/I] the idea of their government dictating what they can and cannot say. We're not talking about hate speech that incites violence (which is illegal in the US btw), we're talking about purely socially unacceptable statements. This [I]is[/I] on a slippery slope because once the government takes on the role of policing 'distasteful' speech, there are no hard limits on how that power can be employed. I'm not even talking tinfoil hat hypotheticals, you can find ample examples from Europe in the 20th century where speech that was considered damaging to the social order (ie critical of the government) was punished using similar justifications. [QUOTE=uber.;51115426]But making racism illegal might be a good thing, since it will at least give people a legal way to defend themselves.[/QUOTE] Racism in hiring practices is illegal. Racism in public businesses choosing who to serve is illegal. Racism in allocation of public funds and projects is illegal. Racism in managing polls, taking on tenants, and all legal matters is illegal. Racism is [I]already illegal[/I] in every way that matters. It's only legal in the harmless expression of personal opinion- and even then, if that opinion crosses the line into inciting violence or hatred, it's illegal. What is throwing people in jail for expressing an opinion that they legally cannot enforce supposed to accomplish?

[QUOTE=catbarf;51115798]I sure hope I never have to live in a society where the government will fine me or throw me in jail for expressing controversial or socially unacceptable opinions.[/QUOTE] "muslims get out" displayed in public is a bit too much to let slide though would it have been acceptable if it said "jews get out?", "blacks get out?"

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51115815]"muslims get out" displayed in public is a bit too much to let slide though would it have been acceptable if it said "jews get out?", "blacks get out?"[/QUOTE] It would not be 'acceptable'. That doesn't mean it's the government's role to label it as such, find the person responsible, and throw them in jail for violating a legally binding moral code. Free speech and government-imposed public censorship are mutually incompatible concepts.

[QUOTE=catbarf;51115842]It would not be 'acceptable'. That doesn't mean it's the government's role to label it as such, find the person responsible, and throw them in jail for violating a legally binding moral code. Free speech and government-imposed public censorship are mutually incompatible concepts.[/QUOTE] So what should happen? His community should shame him for being a verified bag of dicks? That's only gonna make him entrench his position and those who agree with him will rally round him like some sort of shit hero.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51115851]Isnt restaurant's front sign saying "Muslims get out" be kinda close to the bakery not serving gays? [/QUOTE] If they still serve Muslims as they are legally required to, then it's not the same at all. In that case, all they have is a regressive, unpopular sign, and nobody is negatively impacted besides the damage that mean words can inflict. [QUOTE=Trebgarta;51115851]You should see the colossal difference between the vague and mild "expressing opinions" and a fucking billboard/road sign[/QUOTE] Yes. One is a mild example of speech that is easily tolerated even by people that don't really respect the principle of free speech, and the other is a litmus test where some who claim to support free speech reveal their true colors in saying 'no, I don't actually support free speech when it's visible and in public and expressing things I disagree with'. You cannot claim to support free speech if you add the caveat 'in private, where nobody can hear it or be offended'. You don't have free speech if you can only express your thoughts quietly and in private for fear of the police arresting you over them. [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51115879]That's only gonna make him entrench his position and those who agree with him will rally round him like some sort of shit hero.[/QUOTE] Do you think throwing him in jail will produce a different result?

[QUOTE=catbarf;51115890]If they still serve Muslims as they are legally required to, then it's not the same at all. In that case, all they have is a regressive, unpopular sign, and nobody is negatively impacted besides the damage that mean words can inflict. Yes. One is a mild example of speech that is easily tolerated even by people that don't really respect the principle of free speech, and the other is a litmus test where some who claim to support free speech reveal their true colors in saying 'no, I don't actually support free speech when it's visible and in public and expressing things I disagree with'. You cannot claim to support free speech if you add the caveat 'in private, where nobody can hear it or be offended'. You don't have free speech if you can only express your thoughts quietly and in private for fear of the police arresting you over them. [/quote] I think as a Brit I don't share the same attitude toward free speech as you. [quote] Do you think throwing him in jail will produce a different result?[/QUOTE] Probably not but hopefully it'll dissuade people from being dicks so openly thus minimising the impact of those backwards views. It's in societies interest to make people feel included and welcome (ill write a paragraph about this at the end, because thats how I do things: obnoxious, vague and preachy) if that means stopping people from being assholes then so be it. In the long term the way to stop these things from happening is by exposing groups to other groups, that is less likely to happen if a shop says "no moslems or blackies" [sp]Preach mode: You need groups to feel welcome to help integration. If they don't feel welcome then they will seek and alternate identity which further widens the divide and makes them easy pray for baddies. Eg the bullied kid at school might get in with a gang of assholes because they welcome him, just so happens that gang of assholes are all about their ethnic purity and 25degree rotated buddhist peace symbols or the muslim kid who gets bullied for having brown skin or a different accent or gets called terrorist he spends his life not fitting in till some claw hand weirdo says "hey kid, you fit in with my gang, lemme tell you about bomb making you can serve god"[/sp]