• Trump picks opponent of higher minimum wage for Labor Dept
    248 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Monkah;51500504]that's not really how I see it, personally [B]1. [/B]15 dollar minimum wage = more money needed to pay workers [B]2. [/B]more money needed to pay workers = higher revenue required and/or lower expenses [B]3. [/B]higher revenue required = prices of goods go up [B]4. [/B]prices of goods go up = value of dollar decreases [B]5. [/B]value of dollar decreases = calls to raise minimum wage. return to step 1.[/QUOTE] Should people be allowed to be paid well below a living wage?
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51500525][URL="https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster"]Here's some interesting quotes about the minimum wage:[/URL] Very significant part bolded.[/QUOTE] See, $8 or a little over is something I can agree on. $15 federally just seemed crazy to me. $12 minimum which Clinton has promised is not as absurd to me, but I believe it to be thought provoking.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51500519]To be honest I totally get where this guy is coming from. There is no reason for a fast food worker under management level to be earning $15/hr, and this ridiculous "fight for fifteen" is only hastening the automation of the industry. The American labor market is monstrously expensive; if we want unemployment to stay low we need to be focusing on proper training and fiscal responsibility rather than inflating the minimum wage. I've been trying to get a weekend gig to supplement my income for a while now, but nobody will hire me because it wouldn't be worth the time. Why can't I or anyone else bargain for less than the minimum?[/QUOTE] I personally think the best solution is to simply expand the job market as much as possible. As unlikely and impossible as it might seem, I think that if we stop focusing on the minimum wage and instead focus on opening jobs, the value of the worker might eventually rise to the point that the supply of workers is lower than the corporate demand-- or at least [I]somewhat[/I], so that the value of the working man is higher than it currently is today. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51500532]Should people be allowed to be paid well below a living wage?[/QUOTE] I believe that the higher we raise the minimum wage, the weaker the dollar will be, as I explained in my post up above. Though, if you disagree with that, I'd love to hear why. However, assuming we're in agreement on that, it can only be assumed that the minimum 'living wage' would increase as well, no? If the value of the dollar decreases, prices increase. If prices increase, the cost to feed, clothe, and shelter oneself increases with it. I don't believe that raising the minimum wage will lead to any long-term positive effects.
[QUOTE=PsycheClops;51500540]See, $8 or a little over is something I can agree on. $15 federally just seemed crazy to me.[/QUOTE] So you'd support a raise of .75 cents nationally but not a raise of say, 2.00?
[QUOTE=PsycheClops;51500540]See, $8 or a little over is something I can agree on. $15 federally just seemed crazy to me.[/QUOTE] It seems to work for quite a number of countries. Certainly the minimum wage in the states is not anywhere near close the living wage, which is a significant problem.
[QUOTE=Monkah;51500546]I personally think the best solution is to simply expand the job market as much as possible. As unlikely and impossible as it might seem, I think that if we stop focusing on the minimum wage and instead focus on opening jobs, the value of the worker might eventually rise to the point that the supply of workers is lower than the corporate demand-- or at least [I]somewhat[/I], so that the value of the working man is higher than it currently is today.[/QUOTE] so you're basically relying on the goodwill of corporations to pay living wages in a situation where there is more jobs than ever? I mean, I don't want to be rude, but this is just a fantasy dude. 1) There will not be an "expanding" job market in the US thanks in no small part to Automation like we have never seen before. Specialized roles will exist in plentiful amounts, but generalized jobs that don't require specialized knowledge? I doubt it personally. 2) If we just "scrap" the minimum wage, or keep it where it is now(I don't think it meets the definition of a living wage, anywhere in the US), do you really think that wages would go up? How would they? What incentives are driving that? Are those incentives that drive higher wages greater incentives than those that drive down wages? 3) How does increasing the total number of workers, and jobs, increase the value of the worker?
If the minimum wage actually correlated with worker productivity, it would be well north of 20 dollars. The fact that it seems so radical to move it to 15 dollars (an amount still too low for a single person to live on, let alone support others) shows how far to the right wing the US has managed to move.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51500519]Why can't I or anyone else bargain for less than the minimum?[/QUOTE] This is exactly why so many companies don't bother to go a penny above min wage. From a business standpoint as long as there's plenty of labor willing to work hard for $7.50/hr there's no need to give any more.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51500549]So you'd support a raise of .75 cents nationally but not a raise of say, 2.00?[/QUOTE] Sorry, I must reiterate that "or a little over" part ranges in the dollars
Like, Monkah or Conch, can either of you guys explain how productivity in the US is at all time highs, worker compensation is at some pretty historic lows, buying power is down, and you guys think that the answer to this is to do what exactly? People are more productive for substantially less money since the years of Reagan, how is that a good thing for anyone but the top of the heap?
[QUOTE=daschnek;51500574]If the minimum wage actually correlated with worker productivity, it would be well north of 20 dollars.[/QUOTE] Maybe productivity would shoot up if people were paid properly? If you know that you're not getting paid enough, and if you [B]know[/B] that you're "disposable", and if you know that there's little room for you to move up in the hierarchy, then why even bother?
[QUOTE=T553412;51500590]Maybe productivity would shoot up if people were paid properly? If you know that you're not getting paid enough, and if you [B]know[/B] that you're "disposable", and if you know that there's little room for you to move up in the hierarchy, then why even bother?[/QUOTE] that's the thing though The US work force is already astoundingly productive for all the slurs the right likes to use to call everyone in the country lazy
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51500593]that's the thing though The US work force is already astoundingly productive for all the slurs the right likes to use to call everyone in the country lazy[/QUOTE] Not productive enough for [I]some[/I] folks, apparently
[QUOTE=nox;51500575]This is exactly why so many companies don't bother to go a penny above min wage. From a business standpoint as long as someone's willing to work hard for $7.50/hr there's no need to give any more. why spend the extra money to attract workers when there's always more people lining up to work for even less?[/QUOTE] I don't care about the other guy in this case. I want to work a few hours on the weekends doing a shitty job for extra money, but you can't legally pay anyone less than minimum wage. I think if we allowed people to work for less if they wanted to, unemployment would drastically decrease. People will do anything for a job.
[QUOTE=T553412;51500595]Not productive enough for [I]some[/I] folks, apparently[/QUOTE] that's because we live in an era of do more with less, which never works out.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51500599]I don't care about the other guy in this case. I want to work a few hours on the weekends doing a shitty job for extra money, but you can't legally pay anyone less than minimum wage. I think if we allowed people to work for less if they wanted to, unemployment would drastically decrease. People will do anything for a job.[/QUOTE] and if abuse comes of this, we just say "Yeah that's all well and good"?
[QUOTE=Chonch;51500599]I don't care about the other guy in this case. I want to work a few hours on the weekends doing a shitty job for extra money, but you can't legally pay anyone less than minimum wage. I think if we allowed people to work for less if they wanted to, unemployment would drastically decrease. People will do anything for a job.[/QUOTE] So screw the people who want to work for a livable wage because people like you will accept less I guess. I'd rather not have to compete over which job applicant can offer closest to free labor.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51500570]so you're basically relying on the goodwill of corporations to pay living wages in a situation where there is more jobs than ever? I mean, I don't want to be rude, but this is just a fantasy dude. 1) There will not be an "expanding" job market in the US thanks in no small part to Automation like we have never seen before. Specialized roles will exist in plentiful amounts, but generalized jobs that don't require specialized knowledge? I doubt it personally. 2) If we just "scrap" the minimum wage, or keep it where it is now(I don't think it meets the definition of a living wage, anywhere in the US), do you really think that wages would go up? How would they? What incentives are driving that? Are those incentives that drive higher wages greater incentives than those that drive down wages? 3) How does increasing the total number of workers, and jobs, increase the value of the worker?[/QUOTE] [B]1.[/B] I can agree with you here. It's not looking likely, and I'd say that indicates further economic turmoil as the number of jobs open continue to decrease. [B]2.[/B] My beliefs in not increasing the minimum wage have more to do with improving the US economy than it does directly helping the workers. That being said, I think that a better US economy benefits most, if not all Americans. See my edit to my second post. [B]3. [/B]Supply and demand. Currently, we have a very high supply of people ready to work, and very few jobs hiring. As a basic economics 101 class will teach anyone, if a product is in lower supply and higher demand, people are generally willing to pay more for it. Its value increases. In an exaggerated and extreme example, if for some reason every programmer on Earth dies other than maybe twenty or so, those twenty people are going to be making multi-million dollar paychecks. There are less people capable of doing the job, and thus their value increases. In another (and yet less extreme) example, say a new technology (roughly equivalent to, say, the internet) is made public and companies everywhere are looking to hire developers and enter this new, easily profitable market. The demand for programmers will skyrocket, and thus once again you can expect companies to be willing to pay more for the average worker.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51500587]Like, Monkah or Conch, can either of you guys explain how productivity in the US is at all time highs, worker compensation is at some pretty historic lows, buying power is down, and you guys think that the answer to this is to do what exactly?[/QUOTE] I think we should slash taxes across the board, especially on businesses. Perhaps with the extra revenue the private sector might be more keen on a higher minimum wage. Giving everyone more take-home pay certainly isn't going to hurt. I'm no government economist though. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51500601]and if abuse comes of this, we just say "Yeah that's all well and good"?[/QUOTE] I mean, if you both the employer and the employee consent to a set lower wage, where's the abuse going to come from? [QUOTE=nox;51500623]So screw the people who want to work for a livable wage because people like you will accept less I guess.[/QUOTE] Yeah, exactly. If I can stand to do the same work for half the pay and still get by, these hypothetical folks should probably rethink their career choice. [editline]s[/editline] I'm not really a fan of this kind of intervention, but putting a cap on the CEO pay multiplier might stem the practice of sending extra profits to the top. Some kind of financial literacy mandate for public education wouldn't be too bad an idea either. It's crazy that we have kids graduating high school without having ever put a penny in a savings account.
[QUOTE=Sitkero;51500244]Wasn't raising the minimum wage also one of his campaign promises?[/QUOTE] No actually. He's been quoted as saying "our wages are too high".
[QUOTE=Monkah;51500470]And a Universal Basic Income.[/QUOTE] You say that as if Basic Income doesn't work in every country that has it.
[QUOTE=Monkah;51500470]Shh. You're breaking the circlejerk. $30/hr minimum wage is clearly what we need. And a Universal Basic Income. And higher taxes-- but not for me, no, just for the people that make more than me. Hell, let's just all gang up on the nasty rich people and steal all of their stuff. It's not like they've earned it or anything.[/QUOTE] - Claiming people who disagree with you are part of a circle jerk. - Over-Exaggerating what people want in order to push your point. - Strawmanning by inserting an undeclared hatred towards the rich. Could you have a more stereotypical sensationalist headline post?
[QUOTE=Chonch;51500599]I don't care about the other guy in this case. I want to work a few hours on the weekends doing a shitty job for extra money, but you can't legally pay anyone less than minimum wage. I think if we allowed people to work for less if they wanted to, unemployment would drastically decrease. People will do anything for a job.[/QUOTE] You can't actually be serious. Not only is that not true, your own conceit is ridiculous. I had a much longer post written up before I realized the enormity of the insanity you're trucking in. You want the minimum wage to be removed, so that you can what, use your Sundays to rake people's lawn for 2$ an hour in addition to whatever you already do? You know, you can do that already. Just walk through the neighborhood and ask people for 2$ and if they have a rake. Boom. Congrats. I just solved your legal conundrum and made you more profitable for your enterprise. Jesus fucking Christ. Sometimes I have a hard time giving credit to phrases like, [I]bourgeois mindset[/I] but that absolutely nails it.
Minimum wage being $15 nationally is extremely dumb. You aren't supposed to make a living off minimum wage, it's for teenagers who want some extra cash in their pockets.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51500641]I think we should slash taxes across the board, especially on businesses. Perhaps with the extra revenue the private sector might be more keen on a higher minimum wage. Giving everyone more take-home pay certainly isn't going to hurt. I'm no government economist though. I mean, if you both the employer and the employee consent to a set lower wage, where's the abuse going to come from? Yeah, exactly. If I can stand to do the same work for half the pay and still get by, these hypothetical folks should probably rethink their career choice. [/QUOTE] Did you hear that Mr. 57 year old cashier with rheumatoid arthritis? You're going to be taking up a second (or perhaps third) job, because you now have to work for far less than minimum wage to compete with a labor force who will accept less and less pay for the same work that you do. But hey, at least you've got work right? [QUOTE=Derek_SM;51500705]Minimum wage being $15 nationally is extremely dumb. You aren't supposed to make a living off minimum wage, it's for teenagers who want some extra cash in their pockets.[/QUOTE] What you're thinking of is referred to as poverty wage.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51500593]that's the thing though The US work force is already astoundingly productive for all the slurs the right likes to use to call everyone in the country lazy[/QUOTE] remember when jeb bush said people just aren't working enough hours when the average worker is doing 40 hours a week, with some doing well over that. my mother had to leave her second job because of health issues that started developing and would've killed herself from how hard she works. fuck people who think this country isn't productive.
[QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;51500674]You can't actually be serious. Not only is that not true, your own conceit is ridiculous. I had a much longer post written up before I realized the enormity of the insanity you're trucking in. You want the minimum wage to be removed, so that you can what, use your Sundays to rake people's lawn for 2$ an hour in addition to whatever you already do? You know, you can do that already. Just walk through the neighborhood and ask people for 2$ and if they have a rake. Boom. Congrats. I just solved your legal conundrum and made you more profitable for your enterprise. Jesus fucking Christ. Sometimes I have a hard time giving credit to phrases like, [I]bourgeois mindset[/I] but that absolutely nails it.[/QUOTE] Raking lawns? I'm not twelve, man. I don't think the minimum wage should be abolished, not at all. I just want to be able to work around it if I'm not pulling regular part-time hours. Lets say I want to go mop the floor at Burger King on the weekend or do some night-stocking at the local grocers in the early AM for like ~$5 an hour. That could be maybe a hundred or so extra bucks at the end of the month. Imagine what could be done with a little bit of compound interest! I just want to squeeze as much money as possible out of my time while I'm still a young man. If that means I have to take less than $9.50 with benefits I'll happily do it. I guess I'm not up to spec on whether it's legal or not to pay people under minimum wage. I get that waitresses and the like do that with tips, but I understand their employer still has to make up the difference if they don't break $7.25. Can you help me understand this better? [QUOTE=nox;51500715]Did you hear that Mr. 57 year old cashier with rheumatoid arthritis? You're going to be taking up a second (or perhaps third) job, because you now have to work for far less than minimum wage to compete with a labor force who will accept less and less pay for the same work that you do. Hooray for lowered expectations![/QUOTE] I just want to fight the illegal immigrants who are doing this already. Hey, why is a fifty-seven year old man working as a cashier anyway? [editline]8th December 2016[/editline] Since when does wanting to work more than one job make you part of the [I]bourgeois[/I]? Did I cross over into opposite-land in my sleep? What happened to working your ass off? Where has the industrious American working man gone to?
[QUOTE=Chonch;51500599]I don't care about the other guy in this case. I want to work a few hours on the weekends doing a shitty job for extra money, but you can't legally pay anyone less than minimum wage. I think if we allowed people to work for less if they wanted to, unemployment would drastically decrease. People will do anything for a job.[/QUOTE] That's not a good thing. Working one or two days a week for 2 dollars an hour so you can call yourself "employed" is insanity. That's even worse than employment figures leaving out people who stop seeking work.
[QUOTE=Judas;51500390]to be [i]completely[/i] fair, he doesn't oppose raising the minimum wage, he opposes the 15$ nationwide minimum wage, and instead thinks minimum wage should be adjusted for inflation on a state level[/QUOTE] Which is what Trump called for. The problem is that it would allow states to drop their minimum wage to below federal levels which is already ludicrously unlivable. [editline]8th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Derek_SM;51500705]Minimum wage being $15 nationally is extremely dumb. You aren't supposed to make a living off minimum wage, it's for teenagers who want some extra cash in their pockets.[/QUOTE] If you aren't supposed to live on a minimum wage then why bother having a minimum wage to begin with? Might as well get rid of it and have the free market decide the price of human capital.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51500764]Which is what Trump called for. The problem is that it would allow states to drop their minimum wage to below federal levels which is already ludicrously unlivable.[/QUOTE] At least in my state and I believe any other state the labor laws work, the state cannot give less protection to the worker than the federal law. So the federal wage can be 10$, and the state cannot lower it to 7, but if the federal wage is 5$ the state can set it to 7$. So there will never be a case to where a law can be enforced that gives less protection to the worker if there is a law on a different level that raises it
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