• Trump picks opponent of higher minimum wage for Labor Dept
    248 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51500764]If you aren't supposed to live on a minimum wage then why bother having a minimum wage to begin with? Might as well get rid of it and have the free market decide the price of human capital.[/QUOTE] You're delusional. Go to college and get a real job or join the military. Don't want to do all that work? :( Okay then, go work construction. You don't need college for that.
Just out of curiosity, how do you measure productivity? Lots of claims about record levels of productivity but how exactly can you measure that outside of manufacturing?
[QUOTE=Monkah;51500546]I personally think the best solution is to simply expand the job market as much as possible. As unlikely and impossible as it might seem, I think that if we stop focusing on the minimum wage and instead focus on opening jobs, the value of the worker might eventually rise to the point that the supply of workers is lower than the corporate demand-- or at least [I]somewhat[/I], so that the value of the working man is higher than it currently is today.[/QUOTE] If you mean job creation through government work programs, then that actually is a good way for us to fix this situation. The thing is, most of the people in government pushing for "job creation" currently want to do so by lowering corporate taxes or other supply side measures. The reason this won't work is because companies won't risk expanding if there isn't demand to justify it, and there most definitely isn't. Economists are actually pretty worried because they like to maintain a healthy level of inflation, but consumer goods are massively deflated while healthcare is massively inflated. The next best thing we can do is increase demand by increasing wages. [QUOTE]I believe that the higher we raise the minimum wage, the weaker the dollar will be, as I explained in my post up above. Though, if you disagree with that, I'd love to hear why.[/QUOTE] Because it's an oversimplified view of inflation. Like I said above, consumer goods are already massively deflated. Beyond that, demand-pull inflation only becomes an issue when demand outpaces supply, which isn't going to happen anytime soon. [editline]p[/editline] like, with income inequality and corporate profits this high, you can't convince me that the only way they could afford to pay their workers more is to pass it onto the consumers. Every single statistic we have regarding the economy is telling us that people aren't getting paid enough.
[QUOTE=Derek_SM;51500705]Minimum wage being $15 nationally is extremely dumb. You aren't supposed to make a living off minimum wage, it's for teenagers who want some extra cash in their pockets.[/QUOTE] or its what some people do to get by as they search for better jobs? and they deserve to be able to at least survive off of that income? minimum wage in my state is really bad, you NEED 2 jobs if you want to get by which leaves less time to actively pursue better careers, even for those with degrees
[QUOTE=Derek_SM;51500806]You're delusional. Go to college and get a real job or join the military. Don't want to do all that work? :( Okay then, go work construction. You don't need college for that.[/QUOTE] I personally make well over minimum wage, I was just asking what exactly the purpose of it is if not to survive. [editline]8th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=ilikecorn;51500817] Go to college, get a real job: Real jobs require a minimum of 4-5 years of experience to get Join the military: They've drawn down, you're not getting in unless you get some really shitty job Go construction: Not everyone is built to do construction. Hmm.. what's wrong with this picture?[/QUOTE] It's bizarre to me that he would say that going to college and joining the military is "too much work" and then suggests construction, which is harder work than many military jobs and most jobs you would be going to school for. His examples in general are pretty terrible, like how is someone going to afford school if they can't afford food, or the fact that about 1% of the American population qualifies to even join any branch at any given time.
the hardest part of construction is learning how to operate machinery. the rest is common sense or trial and error.
[QUOTE=Derek_SM;51500806]You're delusional. Go to college and get a real job or join the military. Don't want to do all that work? :( Okay then, go work construction. You don't need college for that.[/QUOTE] i wish going to college just guaranteed a high paying job right out the gate
[QUOTE=Chonch;51500641]I think we should slash taxes across the board, especially on businesses. Perhaps with the extra revenue the private sector might be more keen on a higher minimum wage. Giving everyone more take-home pay certainly isn't going to hurt. I'm no government economist though.[/QUOTE] Their taxes were already slashed and they have several loop-holes/conditions that give them a lower effective rate than their workers. That and any time it's been brought up to the right that companies could pay their employees more since they're making record profits, their response is along the lines of "they're under no obligation to share their increased profit margins with their work force". So yeah, gonna have to call bull-honkey on that.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;51500817]No, it's fucking not. That's not what it was created for, and you can go back to FDR's commentary on it. It was designed (back in the day) to give you an ACTUAL LIVING WAGE, so that you didn't have to work 8 jobs to keep the lights on at home. Nowhere in FDR's speeches to congress do you hear "we need to implement a minimum wage.. so that teens can have some cash in their pockets" [editline]8th December 2016[/editline] Go to college, get a real job: Real jobs require a minimum of 4-5 years of experience to get Join the military: They've drawn down, you're not getting in unless you get some really shitty job Go construction: Not everyone is built to do construction. Hmm.. what's wrong with this picture?[/QUOTE] It was also a different time with the Great Depression ending, and the start of the United States being the powerhouse of the world. In the beginning it may have been possible but since we (the United States) have been decreasing in productivity (whether you want to admit that or not compared to post WW2 and the years after it) it is now impossible. Want to know what will happen with your proposed $15 minimum wage? Business owners that had the incentive to hire people for job such as construction will have to increase their workers wages. Small business owners will be especially hit. Oh, and layoffs. Not to mention that full time workers will now be reduced to part time to help offset the costs of the business (that means no more healthcare. Sorry!) Eventually the economy will adjust and all that will happen is instead of a gallon of milk costing ~$2.20, it will rise to $5-$6. Congratulations! Also what is this talk of the military being "drawn down, you're not getting in unless you get some really shitty job?" I am going in in a few months, and it was really easy. Shitty job? Oh yeah I guess working intelligence is a shit job.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51500760]That's not a good thing. Working one or two days a week for 2 dollars an hour so you can call yourself "employed" is insanity. That's even worse than employment figures leaving out people who stop seeking work.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]That's even worse than employment figures leaving out people who stop seeking work.[/QUOTE] How dare you. I can see you're passionate about this. Seriously, if I want to work a little shitty job on top of my average salary, what's the problem? And for others, would you rather be cooped up by yourself NEETing your days away off an unemployment check (where I am that's like $3/hr), or would you take a tiny bit more and have something to do with your day? Arbeit macht frei, man. [QUOTE=Zero-Point;51500856]Their taxes were already slashed and they have several loo-holes/conditions that give them a lower effective rate than their workers. That and any time it's been brought up to the right that companies could pay their employees more since they're making record profits, their response is along the lines of "they're under no obligation to share their increased profit margins with their work force". So yeah, gonna have to call bull-honkey on that.[/QUOTE] The right isn't in control of corporations. What do prominent CEOs think of this? Hell, maybe when the pendulum swings back to the left they can try some radical wealth redistribution system within the corporate structure. Cap the CEO's pay or something. I'm just spit-balling here.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51500830]I personally make well over minimum wage, I was just asking what exactly the purpose of it is if not to survive. [editline]8th December 2016[/editline] It's bizarre to me that he would say that going to college and joining the military is "too much work" and then suggests construction, which is harder work than many military jobs and most jobs you would be going to school for. His examples in general are pretty terrible, like how is someone going to afford school if they can't afford food, or the fact that about 1% of the American population qualifies to even join any branch at any given time.[/QUOTE] Are you kidding me? Write a damn essay: Boom, here have a scholarship.
The system is inherently rigged to enrich a very small amount of people. The top 0.1% own as much as the bottom 90%. Almost all new wealth generated goes to the top 1%. 40 million Americans live in poverty. Half of the country makes less than $30,000 a year. The United States is the richest country on the planet. Something is deeply, DEEPLY wrong here and it's amazing how many people are completely OK with it, or worse, can say with a straight face that the system works fine and those people earned their position through legitimate hard work. Please cut the working class a break, they've been shit on long enough.
[QUOTE=Derek_SM;51500886]Are you kidding me? Write a damn essay: Boom, here have a scholarship.[/QUOTE] Student financial aid is truly an incredible profit racket, possibly the easiest money you will ever find. Seriously, go to a place like Alabama A&M and you can actually score a [I]minority scholarship for being white[/I].
I better get my concept art skills up and running soon or im not going to be able to afford an apartment if this schmuck wants to keep the minimum wage as low as it is.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51500641]Some kind of financial literacy mandate for public education wouldn't be too bad an idea either. It's crazy that we have kids graduating high school without having ever put a penny in a savings account.[/QUOTE] You know, this shows a complete and utter disconnect from people who have it any differently than you do. Most people I knew growing up never had any money at all, let alone enough to even consider saving it up. The only time I ever had any money at all personally before graduating high school was my senior year and that's only because my ex-stepfather forced me to get a job that year or he'd kick me out. And even then he was taking most of my money anyways, between that and having to buy my own food for lunch breaks at work and paying for my own lunches at school (because form his point of view my having a job meant I could take care of myself now) I barely had any money at all left over each paycheck to begin with.
[QUOTE=Derek_SM;51500886]Are you kidding me? Write a damn essay: Boom, here have a scholarship.[/QUOTE] your ignorance and arrogance is frankly, a bit astounding.
We need to raise the minimum wage, period. Maybe not by extreme amounts but we need to start gradually making up for failing to adjust over time. $7.25 an hour isn't getting any more buying power. I hate that people are trying to [I]widen[/I] the wage gap. It's not sustainable. When you pay everyone dirt and work them to death they have neither the time nor the money to buy your shit.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51500738]R I just want to fight the illegal immigrants who are doing this already. Hey, why is a fifty-seven year old man working as a cashier anyway? [editline]8th December 2016[/editline] Since when does wanting to work more than one job make you part of the [I]bourgeois[/I]? Did I cross over into opposite-land in my sleep? What happened to working your ass off? Where has the industrious American working man gone to?[/QUOTE] Because that fifty-seven year old man did not have the opportunity to go to college, and is unable to find any decent job that does not require a college degree. That fifty-seven year old comes from a generation when a high school diploma was all you needed to get by and could land a nice factory job. That fifty-seven year old could also have some form of injury that prevent hims from working in professions like construction, or had health issues that stopped him from getting in the military. Not every middle aged individual is going to have some great job, not everyone is that fucking lucky in this world. For fuck sakes the very job of a cashier is one of the most in demand in New Jersey along with accountants, secretaries, and other human services. My father is turning 60 next year, he did not get to go college as a youth, why? Because he, even as a straight white male, was not eligible for any form of federal financial aid in his youth. Despite coming from some poor, working class family that barely scraped by he went into the military during the Carter years [I]because that was the only option open to him.[/I] After his ex-wife fucked him over and forced him to leave the military she bled him dry of all his money and almost caused him to starve to death because of how much child support was taking from him. In the end the only reason he makes a living wage is because he is a part of a union that provides a health plan and fights a Congress that is continuously trying to bleed the USPS dry so they have a excuse to privatize the postal sector. Just because you're old doesn't mean you went to college, or had the opportunity to land a good job. People who have worked hard their whole life can still get fucked over in the end. Being a cashier is not some high school/college student job, this stereotype only exists because its the only job in abundance in our country. It's a fabricated myth by conservatives. My mother worked two jobs and only barely made more than the minimum wage, one of those two is unionized and I don't even think they offer a health plan. She's a dependent under my father. Fuck off with this 'where oh where did the working man go?' they didn't go anywhere, they just kept getting shafted. I doubt you're even going to read all of this and just spout off some conservative stereotype again about work ethics or something equally asinine.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;51500916]You know, this shows a complete and utter disconnect from people who have it any differently than you do. Most people I knew growing up never had any money at all, let alone enough to even consider saving it up. The only time I ever had any money at all personally before graduating high school was my senior year and that's only because my ex-stepfather forced me to get a job that year or he'd kick me out. And even then he was taking most of my money anyways, between that and having to buy my own food for lunch breaks at work and paying for my own lunches at school (because form his point of view my having a job meant I could take care of myself now) I barely had any money at all left over each paycheck to begin with.[/QUOTE] I sympathize for you, having your money taken away. But the guy has a point and you just proved it. Going off your post you didn't want to work. You had to work so your ex-stepfather was right in that regard. Complaining about money problems when you don't put forth the effort to even get a job is really sad, and no I'm not arguing that for how you had no money left over, I mean how you were forced to get a job your senior year.
- snip, misread
[QUOTE=Derek_SM;51500937]I sympathize for you, having your money taken away. But the guy has a point and you just proved it. Going off your post you didn't want to work. You had to work so your ex-stepfather was right in that regard. Complaining about money problems when you don't put forth the effort to even get a job is really sad, and no I'm not arguing that for how you had no money left over, I mean how you were forced to get a job your senior year.[/QUOTE] You really need to re-read this and maybe even, as outlandish as this sounds, re-evaluate your own biases?
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51500931]Because that fifty-seven year old man did not have the opportunity to go to college, and is unable to find any decent job that does not require a college degree. That fifty-seven year old comes from a generation when a high school diploma was all you needed to get by and could land a nice factory job. That fifty-seven year old could also have some form of injury that prevent hims from working in professions like construction, or had health issues that stopped him from getting in the military. Not every middle aged individual is going to have some great job, not everyone is that fucking lucky in this world. For fuck sakes the very job of a cashier is one of the most in demand in New Jersey along with accountants, secretaries, and other human services. My father is turning 60 next year, he did not get to go college as a youth, why? Because he, even as a straight white male, was not eligible for any form of federal financial aid in his youth. Despite coming from some poor, working class family that barely scraped by he went into the military during the Carter years [I]because that was the only option open to him.[/I] After his ex-wife fucked him over and forced him to leave the military she bled him dry of all his money and almost caused him to starve to death because of how much child support was taking from him. In the end the only reason he makes a living wage is because he is a part of a union that provides a health plan and fights a Congress that is continuously trying to bleed the USPS dry so they have a excuse to privatize the postal sector. Just because you're old doesn't mean you went to college, or had the opportunity to land a good job. People who have worked hard their whole life can still get fucked over in the end. Being a cashier is not some high school/college student job, this stereotype only exists because its the only job in abundance in our country. It's a fabricated myth by conservatives. My mother worked two jobs and only barely made more than the minimum wage, one of those two is unionized and I don't even think they offer a health plan. She's a dependent under my father. Fuck off with this 'where oh where did the working man go?' they didn't go anywhere, they just kept getting shafted. I doubt you're even going to read all of this and just spout off some conservative stereotype again about work ethics or something equally asinine.[/QUOTE] Hell, at my local walmart like 2 thirds of the employees are at least in their 40s, many of them look to be in their 60s and some look even older. I'm sure they're just high school kids and the stress is making them look older than they are though :vs:
[QUOTE=Chonch;51500908]Student financial aid is truly an incredible profit racket, possibly the easiest money you will ever find. Seriously, go to a place like Alabama A&M and you can actually score a [I]minority scholarship for being white[/I].[/QUOTE] School still isn't free, no matter how much financial aid you get. I don't mean money, but in opportunity costs. If you're working 2 jobs to barely survive on your own, you won't be able to go to school. There's not enough hours in the day.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51500923]your ignorance and arrogance is frankly, a bit astounding.[/QUOTE] Considering they don't seem to understand the general purpose and benefits of a minimum wage, I'm going to assume education isn't their strong point and right leaning talk radio is the only "lecture" they've ever listened to. Minimum wage is god damn vital in the modern world, where corporations are trying their hardest to ensure that the poorest stay poor and have no way to fight it. Letting companies set their wages arbitrarily will introduce a race to the bottom, where people will be fighting over jobs that pay so little they'll likely need to take several other jobs to support themselves. And it isn't going to lower costs, paying your employees isn't the only reason goods have increasing value. Actually buying resources, renting buildings, paying utilities, etc. is a majority of the expense for a lot of places.
[QUOTE=Derek_SM;51500937]I sympathize for you, having your money taken away. But the guy has a point and you just proved it. Going off your post you didn't want to work. You had to work so your ex-stepfather was right in that regard. Complaining about money problems when you don't put forth the effort to even get a job is really sad, and no I'm not arguing that for how you had no money left over, I mean how you were forced to get a job your senior year.[/QUOTE] Y'know characterizing everyone who disagrees with you as a lazy bum millenial who doesn't want to work is the furthest thing from productive
Just going to slap this here. [QUOTE][url]https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster[/url][/QUOTE]
Conch, is your idea of the american dream, the american ideal to work multiple jobs while putting yourself through school? Is the ideal american worker working so many hours a week they lose perspective? How many hours a week does the ideal worker work in your mind Conch?
[QUOTE=Alice3173;51500916]You know, this shows a complete and utter disconnect from people who have it any differently than you do. Most people I knew growing up never had any money at all, let alone enough to even consider saving it up. The only time I ever had any money at all personally before graduating high school was my senior year and that's only because my ex-stepfather forced me to get a job that year or he'd kick me out. And even then he was taking most of my money anyways, between that and having to buy my own food for lunch breaks at work and paying for my own lunches at school (because form his point of view my having a job meant I could take care of myself now) I barely had any money at all left over each paycheck to begin with.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry to hear that. If you don't mind me asking, did you go to a private or boarding school somewhere? I grew up in a meth-addled town in the Midwest and IIRC the Feds paid your <$3 lunches if you couldn't come up with the money, which usually was about a third of my class. Surely there's someone around your town who would pay you to do their yardwork/clean gutters/dig their mother's grave etc.
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;51500957]Just going to slap this here.[/QUOTE] I literally posted this on the first page and nobody even addressed its points.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;51500926]I'm not suggesting a 15$ wage. In the slightest. At all. I'm correcting you. Minimum wage was never "just so teens can make some cash", it wasn't ever designed that way. Ever. Even with your "oh it was a different time", that's the same god damned excuse they make about everything. Guns? Oh different time. Speech? Oh that was a different time. Libel laws? Oh different time. If we want to keep on with the "oh that was a different time" rhetoric, we can just throw out every law that isn't ~10 years old, because, after all, they're from a different time. And the military really really really isn't for everyone. What about those who can't get in? What about those who need a waiver that will never come? What about those who get put into a job that doesn't give them any applicable skills? (looking at things like aviation ordinance, forward fire support, infantry, etc etc) What good does going into the military do then? Yea you'll make some cash, and you'll have some insurance.. but what about after 10 years or so, when you're ready to get out? You'll have no applicable skills, and no way to market yourself other than "oh i'm a vet" (fun fact, unless the company has a federal contract.. they don't give a flying fuck if your a vet or not). Yes you can crossrate/cross specialize into a job that would have applicable skills, but the fact of the matter is, that's completely up to your CoC, and unless you're amazing they're not approving that shit. This is the kind of shit that no one thinks about when they're going to bootcamp/tech school. It's not something people think about till they've been out in the "real military" for a year or two and say "fuck what am I supposed to do after this is over" You'll see when you get in.. they're doing everything they can to reduce numbers, from offering incentives to get out, to simply HRT'ing people out. I already ran that rat race, I already know how that shit goes.[/QUOTE] Those laws don't change with economics though. As for the military, if you've been disqualified then you go to college. Can't afford? Do what I said above, write some essays lol. As for people that can get in, if you choose your MOS to be infantry or anything without outside applicable skills you did that to yourself. The Navy and the Army both have your MOS in your CONTRACT, so you know exactly what you're getting BEFORE you sign. The Army has over 200 jobs, and a large percentage of them have life applicable skills you can use once you get out.
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