• Trump picks opponent of higher minimum wage for Labor Dept
    248 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Monkah;51500470]$30/hr minimum wage is clearly what we need. And a Universal Basic Income. And higher taxes-- but not for me, no, just for the people that make more than me. Hell, let's just all gang up on the nasty rich people and steal all of their stuff. It's not like they've earned it or anything.[/QUOTE] This but unironically
[QUOTE=TestECull;51501999]People far smarter than you or I, people who have nobel prizes in economics, disagree. We're not going to get more inflation because minimum wage. I don't even have to provide a source for this, [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1544637&p=51500525&viewfull=1#post51500525"]someone else already found one and posted it.[/URL] Everyone should be able to make ends meet. Having to work two, three jobs to do so simply because minimum wage is so low is unacceptable. Minimum wage and living wage should be quite close to one another, not on opposite ends of the labor market. At absolute minimum the federal min wage should be pegged to inflation, should be raised up such that its buying power is equal to where it was in the 1960s.[/QUOTE] That's not a source. It's at best, an argument from authority. It doesn't cite even an single actual study or analysis. Here's a look at actual studies and their conclusion on the effect of minimum wage increases and jobs. They, at best, show zero change, and generally show a negative change in jobs with higher minimum wages, especially for low skill workers. Here's the article summary: "How do we summarize this evidence? Many studies over the years find that higher minimum wages reduce employment of teens and low-skilled workers more generally. Recent exceptions that find no employment effects typically use a particular version of estimation methods with close geographic controls that may obscure job losses. Recent research using a wider variety of methods to address the problem of comparison states tends to confirm earlier findings of job loss. Coupled with critiques of the methods that generate little evidence of job loss, the overall body of recent evidence suggests that the most credible conclusion is a higher minimum wage results in some job loss for the least-skilled workers—with possibly larger adverse effects than earlier research suggested." ([url]http://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2015/december/effects-of-minimum-wage-on-employment/[/url])
[QUOTE=sgman91;51502225]([url]http://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2015/december/effects-of-minimum-wage-on-employment/[/url])[/QUOTE] With all due respect, the summation of the letter states: [QUOTE]This is a small drop in aggregate employment that should be weighed against increased earnings for still-employed workers because of higher minimum wages.[/QUOTE] So, although losses can be considered substantial, the increase in general well being across the nation is also an expected outcome. In addition, their calculations do not appear to set the new wage at all, in regards to the loses. In most infantile mathematics, we can assume such a basic calculation: The loss of 200,000 jobs for 7.25 an hour consists goes against the remaining 2.8 Million People of 3.0 Million total. [URL="http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/archive/characteristics-of-minimum-wage-workers-2014.pdf"]Source.[/URL] So, let's assume that the new wage is 2 dollars more, a reasonable amount that is present amongst more caring states (for example, Vermont). Thus, for the loss of 2 Million dollars worth of wages for the unemployed, the 5.6 Million increase for the retained work force, gives us a total of 4.6 Million increase in spending power PER HOUR for such a populace. This allows for great deal of thing - a livelier economy, greater consumption, and for a number of states - opportunity to increase their tax rate and allow to become independent from great deal of government program to assist the states, increasing the state's ability to deal with infrastructures, assistance programs, schools. Yes, it's a cute little calculation that does not count the fearfulness of employers and is reliant on given numbers as well as their demand for greater margins of profit, which could be undercut. But the point is that an economy is likely to improve from greater deal in interactions within it, rather than being stalled by the participants trying to save every dollar. And while I don't think anyone will disagree that loss of jobs is unlikely, the general statement is obvious: one's salary as a full-time employee should always allow you to live a life on your own. [editline]9th December 2016[/editline] At the end, government cannot enforce employers to provide a livable wage, but they are able to enforce specific numbers. Numerous times market has shown to be unable to specify proper wages for low- and unskilled workers, it is our jobs as citizens of our country to enforce livable standards - any company that thus requires a local workforce has to deal with this. This is one of the many reasons why the country has to rely on non-industrial means of economic propulsion - it is a state of a post-industrial society. Returning to being a primarily industrial economy is a regression.
Minimum wage creates problems and shouldn't be necessary. Unfortunately without an extensive welfare system you need work to survive, so you have no grounds to negotiate for better conditions.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51501572]Your liberal superiority signaling is more annoying than anything else I've seen on this forum.[/QUOTE] I fucking LOVE it when people stifle discussion about real issues in favour of shit like this. Seeing as we're being shallow I might screenshot every such post and make a huge compilation poster, stick it on my wall so I can sit and laugh when daddy Trump doesn't bring the jobs home. Like do you guys honestly believe it's all fine cos trumps gonna stick it to them virtue signalling sjws, dealing with the real issues right? Grow up. [editline]9th December 2016[/editline] Or is it just a big ironic joke? I seriously can't tell.
[QUOTE=Monkah;51500470]Shh. You're breaking the circlejerk. $30/hr minimum wage is clearly what we need. And a Universal Basic Income. And higher taxes-- but not for me, no, just for the people that make more than me. Hell, let's just all gang up on the nasty rich people and steal all of their stuff. It's not like they've earned it or anything.[/QUOTE] Funny you say that especially since class mobility is at an all-time low and many 1%ers were born into it, so unless you count being the child of a child of a successful entrepreneur as "earning" all their wealth, then these 1%ers don't deserve their wealth any more than many of the working class do theirs.
[QUOTE=Last or First;51501994]Because if you make a special agreement with your employer to accept less than minimum wage, then your employer is going to expect [I]everyone else[/I] to make a "special agreement" [I]as well[/I]. I mean, you even mention that employers are willing to make waiters work for less than minimum wage by using tips as a technicality, but you don't think they'd be willing to turn away any new hires that don't make "special agreements"?[/quote] "Hey I want to find someone who can do your job for less." "No you're not hired unless you sign this special contract because I say so." I'm sure that'd go over just swell with the regulators. [QUOTE=Last or First;51501994]Sure, unemployment would decrease, but so would homelessness. Because as people in this thread have been saying, and as republicans and posters like Derek have been trying to justify, [I]minimum wage is not a living wage.[/I] Even though it's supposed to be.[/quote] Sounds good to me! Lord knows we have too many homeless folks. I'm not suggesting people try to live off sub-minimum if they obviously can't, but if it's their only option, isn't that preferable to rotting in the street? [QUOTE=Last or First;51501994]Higher employment rates are only good if people are able to live off of it. [/Quote] What are your feelings on FDR's work programs? [QUOTE=Last or First;51501994] You know there are studies showing that if you work for more than 40 hours, you [I]lose[/I] efficiency, right? And I don't mean "efficiency per hour", I mean "overall efficiency". Someone who works for 40 hours actually gets more done than someone who works for 50 hours.[/QUOTE] I'm not too concerned with efficiency in a low wage weekender position. If I can still pull through my full time position and get a paycheck I'm more than okay. Where is this study? [editline]9th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Teddybeer;51502677]The jump is so high because companies did fuck all, they had the choice to raise it slowly overtime but they didn't. If they cared about keeping those jobs they would have done something. And those jobs will always exist because it's the gutter where people apply when they can't somewhere else.[/QUOTE] Isn't the minimum wage a federal mandate? I'd say the government did fuck all.
To be fair, this is something conservatives seem to do no matter where you are- it's terrible but it isn't exclusive to trump. When the Tories got into power a few years back they made a point of doing a whole bunch of stuff like this: Notorious fox hunters who like to get drunk and watch dogs tear another animal to pieces for animal welfare minister. Strong opponents of gay marriage before it was legalised put in charge of Equality and diversity, that kind of thing. If you whole deal is keeping things the way they were in the 'good old days' you are obviously going to be looking to appoint as many people who will undermine any progressive initiatives as possible.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51501572]Your liberal superiority signaling is more annoying than anything else I've seen on this forum.[/QUOTE] "no stop, don't you see you're [I][B]superiority signaling!?[/B][/I]"
[QUOTE=fulgrim;51502981]To be fair, this is something conservatives seem to do no matter where you are- it's terrible but it isn't exclusive to trump. When the Tories got into power a few years back they made a point of doing a whole bunch of stuff like this: Notorious fox hunters who like to get drunk and watch dogs tear another animal to pieces for animal welfare minister. Strong opponents of gay marriage before it was legalised put in charge of Equality and diversity, that kind of thing. If you whole deal is keeping things the way they were in the 'good old days' you are obviously going to be looking to appoint as many people who will undermine any progressive initiatives as possible.[/QUOTE] Not all conservatives are bad. I think our conservatives are alright, though I am much more left leaning than them. It's really the British Conservatives and American Republicans that are terrible - mostly down to your media and your voting systems, in my opinion.
i'm genuinely curious as to what makes people like Chonch and Derek so delusional and detatched from the real world and real people's problems that makes them unable to empathize with people in different situations or even look up facts to realize that raising the minimum wage would not cause economic decay or rioting in the streets. y'all push for college education which is apparently a one way ticket out the door of poverty, yet don't listen to the economists whos jobs literally revolve around studying the effects of these kinds of issues, citing nothing but anecdotes and the want to waste your time for $3 i'm sorry, Chonch, i'm glad that you are so untouched by the world and have so much free time that you'd be willing to waste your life for a few hundred bucks a month but i truly don't see how you're dense enough to not realize that if you were allowed to negotiate for lower wages, companies would abuse the absolute shit out of it and that would negatively affect a vast majority of the population that is already being abused significantly. $15 minimum wage is not meant to put more money in the pockets of teenagers, it's meant to reduce the abuse of a working class people who so far can work 40-50 hours a week and still not be able to feed themselves or their families on a consistent basis i'm a full time student making well over minimum wage hourly on top of a hefty commission making much more than most people in my age group, yet i'm not deluded enough to believe that other human beings don't deserve to make a decent living and be allowed to live healthy, happy lives without overworking themselves for greedy fucks who don't care about them in the slightest. why is that such a hard concept to grasp? why is human empathy a difficult topic for people like you?
People should have freedom [I]from[/I] poverty, not the freedom to "choose" a less-than-minimum-wage job - I don't get how that can be viewed as a freedom at all, to be honest. We're definitely coming to a point in society that we could implement expansive safety nets for people, so they can explore new horizons and enrich humanity instead of being forced to work to survive.
My fiancé has a college degree for veterinary science, works three jobs, and still can't afford to live on her own with her son. Only when I'm working 48-50 hour work weeks do we make just enough to cover our $800 rent and utilities. That's in addition to having to pay for things like car insurance and a phone bill and groceries. I had to drop out of a college I spent two years working my ass off to get into so I could work a full time job and I'll probably never be able to go back. Now I have a student loan debt for no reason because I wanted to finally move out of my parents at 25 and help support my fiancé. Also, lol if you think you can just negotiate a work schedule with an employer like you're ordering lunch or something. I've been trying to do that for the last year, and unless I just quit and go work part time (and lose my house, car, and p.much everything resembling having a life) it's not going to happen. Also, my fiancé comes from a family of vets. You're delusional if you think the military takes care of its own. We've also done our best and played it smart and yet it's so goddamn hard and time consuming to make any kind of forward movement. And you know we get to hear how lazy we are all the time too, from the right and from old people. They're all out of touch. Relics from a bygone age.
[QUOTE=Monkah;51500470]Shh. You're breaking the circlejerk. $30/hr minimum wage is clearly what we need. And a Universal Basic Income. And higher taxes-- but not for me, no, just for the people that make more than me. Hell, let's just all gang up on the nasty rich people and steal all of their stuff. It's not like they've earned it or anything. In other words, he's mentally sane. Anyone that thinks a $15/hr minimum wage should be applied nationwide is either incredibly ignorant about the cost of living outside of urban areas or is just plain crazy, IMO.[/QUOTE] $15 is what an entry level HVAC technician makes, I don't get how so many people believe that a McDonalds worker with no education, should make the exact same as a trained HVAC technician or a mechanic. Working at McDonalds is meant to be an entry level position to just get by on, I am all for adjusting minimum wage for inflation but honestly a McDonalds drive through worker that just pushes buttons on a machine that also does all the math for them shouldn't make $15 an hour.
[QUOTE=TK 421;51503718]$15 is what an entry level HVAC technician makes, I don't get how so many people believe that a McDonalds worker with no education, should make the exact same as a trained HVAC technician or a mechanic. Working at McDonalds is meant to be an entry level position to just get by on, I am all for adjusting minimum wage for inflation but honestly a McDonalds drive through worker that just pushes buttons on a machine that also does all the math for them shouldn't make $15 an hour.[/QUOTE] Has it ever occurred to you that everyone in the country that isn't in the top 1% is grossly underpaid? Not trying to be an asshole, genuinely asking.
[QUOTE=Popularvote;51500302]"This just in, Trump selects Danny Devito as head of presidential committee on pretty people."[/QUOTE] this is fucking uncalled for
[QUOTE=Chonch;51500738]Hey, why is a fifty-seven year old man working as a cashier anyway[/QUOTE] what an awful fucking thing to say
I have a question, can't you impeach Trump? He's obviously a horrible person to lead the country.
[QUOTE=EskillV2;51503958]I have a question, can't you impeach Trump? He's obviously a horrible person to lead the country.[/QUOTE] It's entirely possible to move for impeachment when he actually gets inaugurated, but even if successful, he has multiple unsavory characters to succeed him starting with Pence.
[QUOTE=TK 421;51503718]$15 is what an entry level HVAC technician makes, I don't get how so many people believe that a McDonalds worker with no education, should make the exact same as a trained HVAC technician or a mechanic. Working at McDonalds is meant to be an entry level position to just get by on, I am all for adjusting minimum wage for inflation but honestly a McDonalds drive through worker that just pushes buttons on a machine that also does all the math for them shouldn't make $15 an hour.[/QUOTE] I mean, aside from putting down people working at McD's, maybe the problem isn't in them possibly earning too much - maybe the problem is that you, as a trained HVAC technician earn too little?
[QUOTE=TK 421;51503718]$15 is what an entry level HVAC technician makes, I don't get how so many people believe that a McDonalds worker with no education, should make the exact same as a trained HVAC technician or a mechanic. Working at McDonalds is meant to be an entry level position to just get by on, I am all for adjusting minimum wage for inflation but honestly a McDonalds drive through worker that just pushes buttons on a machine that also does all the math for them shouldn't make $15 an hour.[/QUOTE] Did you ever think that maybe HVAC is also underpaid? Also I WISH entry level HVAC was $15 an hour. My last employer started me out at $10/hr. and I was only making $12 an hour after almost 5 years of working for them. "But $12 an hour is pretty good!" Around here, yeah, it [I]was[/I] pretty good, back when I worked in a whey processing plant in 2006 when minimum wage was $5.25 compared to the $7.35 it is now, and back when the average worker's spending power was a little better than it is now. Also note that I had to attend a trade school and get certifications just to get the HVAC job. Now that job is gone and most HVAC employers are on what's basically a hiring freeze because winter is their slow time. [QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51503792]If McDonalds is meant to be an entry level position "just to get by," then it fails at that. It needs to pay more to be lived off of. It doesn't matter what an HVAC technician makes. It doesn't matter what anyone else makes in comparison. There are people that are born, sit on their ass, and make millions. That's not an excuse to destroy the middle class. And if you think all fast food workers "just push a button" as their job, woo boy you need some perspective. I worked fast food and you couldn't pay be $15 an hour to do it again.[/QUOTE] This. I've worked 2 fast food jobs and they were easily the most stressful jobs I've ever had out of being: A factory worker A car salesman A glass installer A "sample puller" (took milk samples from tanker trucks for a local cheese plant, whole $8 an hour that was while min. wage was $7.35) A tanker maintenance man (just a fancy way of saying "I washed milk tankers/scrubbed rust out of them") An HVAC installer In my experience, fast food is best described as "how much can we get away with expecting people to function like robots".
[QUOTE=Dysentery;51503512]i'm genuinely curious as to what makes people like Chonch and Derek so delusional and detatched from the real world and real people's problems that makes them unable to empathize with people in different situations or even look up facts to realize that raising the minimum wage would not cause economic decay or rioting in the streets. y'all push for college education which is apparently a one way ticket out the door of poverty, yet don't listen to the economists whos jobs literally revolve around studying the effects of these kinds of issues, citing nothing but anecdotes and the want to waste your time for $3[/quote] Man, I dont even think you read my posts. I have zero issue with the minimum wage, I actually think it'a a little low. I just want the freedom to be able to work around and below it if I need to. If I'm getting paid what I want for my time, what's being wasted? [QUOTE=Dysentery;51503512] i'm sorry, Chonch, i'm glad that you are so untouched by the world and have so much free time that you'd be willing to waste your life for a few hundred bucks a month but i truly don't see how you're dense enough to not realize that if you were allowed to negotiate for lower wages, companies would abuse the absolute shit out of it and that would negatively affect a vast majority of the population that is already being abused significantly.[/quote] You talk about economists, but I can't think of anyone who supports this idea right here. Give me time to get to my laptop and I can give you lectures from Milton Friedman that argue for the exact opposite. Not that it matters, because you can spin an economist to support whatever position you want. I don't need a doctoral candidate peering over my shoulder to figure out that companies are sending jobs overseas for lower taxes and labor costs, that's just a fact. Whether we can compete by loosening tax and minimum wage laws is not a question I can definitively answer. I just want my right to bargain for the conditions I want. [QUOTE=Dysentery;51503512] Why is human empathy a difficult topic for people like you?[/QUOTE] Of course you aren't going to understand someone else's rationale if you distort them like this. You make a boogeyman out of anyone who holds an different position. I'm not saying I hate poor people, that I don't think folks need a living wage--this is all coming from you. Perhaps you could understand others' opinions better if you chose to really think about them instead of putting on such a farce.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51502976]"Hey I want to find someone who can do your job for less." "No you're not hired unless you sign this special contract because I say so." I'm sure that'd go over just swell with the regulators.[/quote] Again, they're already doing that for waiters. And there's also a pressure in certain job fields of "we can't make you do overtime if you don't want to", but those that don't take overtime get laid off or aren't hired. And they wouldn't be so straightforward about it. They'd just [I]mention[/I] making a special deal to work for less, and if you say you aren't interested, you'll just so happen to not be called back for a job. They'd pass if off as "If you're interviewing two people with equal skills, but one wants less money for the same work, it's just business sense to hire that person, right?" Or something along those lines. [QUOTE=Chonch;51502976]Sounds good to me! Lord knows we have too many homeless folks. I'm not suggesting people try to live off sub-minimum if they obviously can't, but if it's their only option, isn't that preferable to rotting in the street?[/quote] Ah fuck, I just now realized I misworded that. I was trying to say "employment would increase, but so would homelessness." I probably should have reread that before posting it. Sorry about that. Let's try this again: you would be trading the unemployment rate for the homelessness rate. More people would be employed if you let them work for less than minimum wage, but since those jobs would be paying even less than something that already doesn't give enough money for someone to live, homelessness would increase. And again, there would be pressure for other people to work for less. The only way homelessness wouldn't increase is if people started working even more hours than they already are. Which turns into that "work is freedom" bullshit, treating people as if they were robots or cattle. And it's inefficient as well. [QUOTE=Chonch;51502976]What are your feelings on FDR's work programs?[/quote] We're not in that situation right now? That was a situation of people not having jobs or being paid nothing. Your solution would offer to pay those that have jobs [I]even less[/I]. [QUOTE=Chonch;51502976]I'm not too concerned with efficiency in a low wage weekender position. If I can still pull through my full time position and get a paycheck I'm more than okay. Where is this study?[/quote] Here's [url=http://web.archive.org/web/20090824001133/http://www.curt.org/pdf/156.pdf]one[/url]. Sure, it's for factory work, but there's nothing suggesting it doesn't apply to other fields of work. Oh and here's [url=http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/169/5/596.full]another one[/url] as well.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51505977]Man, I dont even think you read my posts. I have zero issue with the minimum wage, I actually think it'a a little low. I just want the freedom to be able to work around and below it if I need to. If I'm getting paid what I want for my time, what's being wasted?[/QUOTE] your time isn't being wasted, but the idea of you getting "paid what you want" for your time opens the door for other people to be negatively affected, all because you don't realize that you can get more than one job that all pay more than minimum wage. it's not that difficult of a concept to realize that you don't need to affect other people's livelihoods in order to bring a small amount of personal gain to yours but yes, great, if the minimum wage is low then let's not deregulate it and make it lower, yeah? [QUOTE=Chonch;51505977]You talk about economists, but I can't think of anyone who supports this idea right here. Give me time to get to my laptop and I can give you lectures from Milton Friedman that argue for the exact opposite. Not that it matters, because you can spin an economist to support whatever position you want. I don't need a doctoral candidate peering over my shoulder to figure out that companies are sending jobs overseas for lower taxes and labor costs, that's just a fact. Whether we can compete by loosening tax and minimum wage laws is not a question I can definitively answer. I just want my right to bargain for the conditions I want.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.epi.org/minimum-wage-statement/"]uhhhh[/URL] and once again - letting corporations fuck over the working class people with reduced regulations just to replace those jobs with automation in order to increase profit margins is not a good answer to this question [QUOTE=Chonch;51505977]Of course you aren't going to understand someone else's rationale if you distort them like this. You make a boogeyman out of anyone who holds an different position. I'm not saying I hate poor people, that I don't think folks need a living wage--this is all coming from you. Perhaps you could understand others' opinions better if you chose to really think about them instead of putting on such a farce.[/QUOTE] i'm not making a boogey man out of anyone, i'm genuinely curious as to why you're unable to see the bigger picture here. your posts scream "i seriously can't tell that deregulating corporations and allowing people to work for less than minimum wage will fuck over the vast majority of working people all because it slightly benefits me" you seriously asked why a 57 year old man would be working as a cashier, as if the idea of people not sucking the tit of the american dream and having six figure incomes isn't a concept that you can grasp. like, from your posts it's obvious to tell that you don't have any sort of economic struggle, which is great, but it's deluded you to the point where you genuinely think and believe that ANYONE will be able to escape poverty simply by going to college, despite largely growing evidence that a college education does not guarantee you a job anymore, or by joining the military, which is a hilariously stupid thing to recommend. not everybody wants to join the military and our government's care of veterans is laughable. people should have the freedom to take the job that they want and still be able to live out of poverty income inequality and poverty is a huge issue in this country, for more reasons than just not being the "industrious working American man"
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51503792]If McDonalds is meant to be an entry level position "just to get by," then it fails at that. It needs to pay more to be lived off of. It doesn't matter what an HVAC technician makes. It doesn't matter what anyone else makes in comparison. There are people that are born, sit on their ass, and make millions. That's not an excuse to destroy the middle class. And if you think all fast food workers "just push a button" as their job, woo boy you need some perspective. I worked fast food and you couldn't pay be $15 an hour to do it again.[/QUOTE] When it comes to fast food, it's not that it's easy or low stress work, it's that it's low value work. People are paid according to what the results of their work is, a fast food worker at McDonald's has a pretty marginal impact on the profits of the company so they get a marginal salary. And the people who make millions by simply existing are a pretty small minority, even of rich people. Something like 80% of American millionares are self-made, and even the people who started out in a wealthy family had to work very hard to grow and maintain their money. If that weren't the case, you would see lottery winners making up a significant percentage of the upper class.
Chonch, real story, true story here. I have a 45 year old coworker. 7 years ago, he was a very well off plumber, in Canada, a place with substantially more protections for this kind of thing. He hurt his body badly doing his job as a plumber, and did the typical manly thing of sucking it up for a few days. It turns out, he broke and shattered his hip, and had still been walking around on it to the surprise of pretty much everyone. He was hospitalized for literally months to fix the issues. He lost his job, his house, his car, do the costs of maintaining everything for several years without working while receiving a minimal amount of money for the injury claim. He is now in the same job I am, getting paid the same shitty wage I am, doing the same shitty job. It's a job that has qualifications and training required just to hold it, but it's still an entry level job that pays well below the cost of living. It is also an incredibly mentally demanding and taxing job for what it is. People end up in shitty positions and it's not really just as simple as "It's their fault".
[QUOTE=Talishmar;51502440]Minimum wage creates problems and shouldn't be necessary. Unfortunately without an extensive welfare system you need work to survive, so you have no grounds to negotiate for better conditions.[/QUOTE] With a basic income(or more aptly minimum income) you could arguably remove the minimum wage and then let the market decide the wages for non-skilled and skilled labor jobs. The challenge to this, however: where will we get the tax money for this? With a basic/minimum income and no minimum wage, the individual income tax is no longer the largest source of revenue for the federal government. Someone who was taxed at 15% before this switch may find themselves making half or even less afterwards and possibly finding themselves in the 0% bracket and so on for the higher tax brackets. Would we reform the tax code and tax businesses and large corporations more than individuals? It's seem likely, people need money to purchase goods so these corporations and business stay in power. With a minimum income we very well might see a large boost in employment, particularly by small businesses. If people do not feel stressed or pressured into working multiple jobs just to get by they may even be more productive. I'm not an economist though, so my opinion or theory on this is worth less than dog shit but its something worth debating. [editline]10th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Zero-Point;51505502]Did you ever think that maybe HVAC is also underpaid? Also I WISH entry level HVAC was $15 an hour. My last employer started me out at $10/hr. and I was only making $12 an hour after almost 5 years of working for them. "But $12 an hour is pretty good!" Around here, yeah, it [I]was[/I] pretty good, back when I worked in a whey processing plant in 2006 when minimum wage was $5.25 compared to the $7.35 it is now, and back when the average worker's spending power was a little better than it is now. Also note that I had to attend a trade school and get certifications just to get the HVAC job. Now that job is gone and most HVAC employers are on what's basically a hiring freeze because winter is their slow time. This. I've worked 2 fast food jobs and they were easily the most stressful jobs I've ever had out of being: A factory worker A car salesman A glass installer A "sample puller" (took milk samples from tanker trucks for a local cheese plant, whole $8 an hour that was while min. wage was $7.35) A tanker maintenance man (just a fancy way of saying "I washed milk tankers/scrubbed rust out of them") An HVAC installer In my experience, fast food is best described as "how much can we get away with expecting people to function like robots".[/QUOTE] Shit I started at $12/hr for a plumber after I got out of trade school, after my 3 month trial I got boosted up to $13. Your last employer sounds like a dick. A huge problem is that there is a huge lack of technical and trade schools in our country. They're considered schools for delinquents even back in my fathers youth, only my district offered building trades programs to post-secondary HS graduates- every other county district only caters to High School students and these brats most of the time are there to be out of the high school districts hair or just get the credits. I actually rooted for Marco Rubio just a little when he brought up vocational training in the early GOP debates because it was a legitimate issue that could solve the lack of workforce participation and unemployment. In fact you can't even get a job in these trades because contractors want someone with 5 years experience when there is no institution to learn from other than going into a union. It's like the 5 year experience meme came to life.
[QUOTE=TK 421;51503718]$15 is what an entry level HVAC technician makes, I don't get how so many people believe that a McDonalds worker with no education, should make the exact same as a trained HVAC technician or a mechanic. Working at McDonalds is meant to be an entry level position to just get by on, I am all for adjusting minimum wage for inflation but honestly a McDonalds drive through worker that just pushes buttons on a machine that also does all the math for them shouldn't make $15 an hour.[/QUOTE] minimum wage is supposed to be a living wage, the current 7$/hour at 40 hours and a luxurious 6 days a week would still put you far below the poverty line. Whatever you want to say about it, people ARE working at mcdonalds as well as several other jobs right now just to survive because thats what they HAVE to do, and it is just not true that fast food workers are all highschool dropouts or highschool students who don't 'deserve' better its not good for the government or society, but perfect for the stock market to have people's wages supplemented by the tangled mess of a social welfare system we have
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51506697]Shit I started at $12/hr for a plumber after I got out of trade school, after my 3 month trial I got boosted up to $13. Your last employer sounds like a dick. [/QUOTE] Oh boy, if only you knew the half of it.
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;51500342]This is the president you picked people [B][I][U]YOU DID THIS[/U][/I][/B][/QUOTE] maybe the democrats should've gone out and voted then lmao
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