Trump Makes Deal with Carrier Air Conditioning to keep 1,000 Jobs in the US - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Paramud;51448600]The only way you're gonna make $24 an hour in a factory as a "working man" is if the minimum wage is $23 an hour. The only people who make that kind of money in factories are managers and supervisors, the kind of people who obviously would directly benefit from cutting a deal with Trump in exchange for keeping on some of the people they'd otherwise kick out in an instant.[/QUOTE] Right, I'm sure that all the rest of the 1000 workers who get to stay voted Clinton because only the bosses (who are lavishly wealthy on $24/hr) benefit from not losing their jobs. Get real. $24/hr is absolutely the wage of a "working man." One who is putting his daughter through college and would've needed to get another job in order to do so had the factory closed.

[QUOTE=OvB;51448604]I've never worked in a factory but I feel like saying someone who makes $24 an hour isn't a working man is a bit outrageous. Does someone have to be busting their ass for nothing to be considered working? You might be right saying he's not [I]working class.[/I] But work is work. [editline]29th November 2016[/editline] He's a 24 year veteran so he's likely salaried line manager.[/QUOTE] Line manager is a lot different from a team lead. Team leads are people who generally manage the people beneath them while working along side from. My point is that someone who makes three times the minimum wage (in Indianapolis, the location in the article) in an industry that rarely pays above minimum wage is absolutely not the average joe. Maybe I should've said working [i]class[/i], but at that point it's just semantics. And really it doesn't matter because taking one person and saying "this guy's opinion represents the entirety of all factory employees" is bullshit anyways. [editline]29th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=King Tiger;51448625]Right, I'm sure that all the rest of the 1000 workers who get to stay voted Clinton[/quote] Here's comes the Clinton argument, right out of left field

[QUOTE=Paramud;51448631]And really it doesn't matter because taking one person and saying "this guy's opinion represents the entirety of all factory employees" is bullshit anyways.[/QUOTE] This is so dumb. You said that "easing regulations" (which is literally all the information we have about the changes that are going to be made) would harm the working man. Now, regardless of my quote from the specific guy, your post is still ridiculous. [B]The jobs wouldn't even exist if they left for Mexico![/B] If the working man felt so threatened by these easements (again, we have literally zero information what that even means) then wouldn't they just quit? They were going to lose their jobs anyway. [editline]29th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Paramud;51448631]Here's comes the Clinton argument, right out of left field[/QUOTE] I assumed that [quote]Well shit man, if Robin likes him it's all good.[/quote] Was referring to the election.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51448613]You're way out of whack here. $24 is a solid, blue collar wage. Minimum wage isn't meant to match a blue collar living wage. Its [I]minimum[/I]. Shit tier.[/QUOTE] I absolutely agree, blue collar wages shouldn't be minimum wage. Factory workers should be paid more. They aren't, but yeah, they should be.

There has to be a catch here. Moving 1000 jobs from the US to Mexico would save a lot on production, so Trump would have had to promise Carrier something equally as inciting as the production savings they could have had. I also think it's weird that Carrier announced this on their Twitter.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51448692]There has to be a catch here. Moving 1000 jobs from the US to Mexico would save a lot on production, so Trump would have had to promise Carrier something equally as inciting as the production savings they could have had. I also think it's weird that Carrier announced this on their Twitter.[/QUOTE] It was claimed in the article that Carrier was bleeding money due to bad PR from Trump constantly bringing them up during the election. It was one of their motivators to keep half the jobs here because they wouldn't even be saving that much anymore. [editline]29th November 2016[/editline] Trying to fix bad PR explains the tweet.

I'm withholding judgement on 'market intervention' until I know exactly what happened. From the outset, this is fucking incredible. You people are ripping on Trump for fulfilling one of his campaign promises [I] before even taking office[/I] without a shred of evidence for your claims.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;51448647]This is so dumb. You said that "easing regulations" (which is literally all the information we have about the changes that are going to be made) would harm the working man.[/QUOTE] I'll admit that I know just as much about the regulations being eased as you do. I'm making an assumption that these regulations are largely made of those involving workplace safety and human resources guidelines because, as someone who has only worked in factories, those are the two areas that I'm most concerned about. In my experience, factories are in a huge need of stricter regulations in those areas. [quote][B]The jobs wouldn't even exist if they left for Mexico![/B] If the working man felt so threatened by these easements (again, we have literally zero information what that even means) then wouldn't they just quit? They were going to lose their jobs anyway[/quote] I'm assuming by the way that you post that you've never actually worked in a factory. Factory work is rarely a preferred line of work. It's hard, unforgiving, and usually dangerous. The people who work these jobs are typically doing so because they either can't find work elsewhere, or because they're desperate for the money. Virtually [b]everyone[/b] I've ever worked with would've quit if they had alternatives. They simply felt that they didn't. I can confidently say that no, the average factory employee will not quit over poor workplace standards. They're usually desperate enough to stay in the job until it becomes a serious risk to their immediate health.

24/hr is the same rate a journeyman plumber, electrician, hvac tech, and carpenters all earn union or otherwise. I'm guessing they aren't blue collar working jobs now because some schmuck in a factory makes that? Good fucking lord maybe in the 80s 24/hr was a shit load of money but today you need to be able to make 15/hr just to get by. 24/hr is nothing special by todays standards. Paramud, what do you do for a living to get by? To consider 24/hr above working man tier I can only imagine you work some dead end job just barely making above minimum wage. I really hope I'm wrong on that. Skilled blue collar careers pay well into the 20s and even 30s because of the years of training and experience required to get there. This is only shown by that guy earning 24/hr.

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51448757]Paramud, what do you do for a living to get by?[/QUOTE] I work in factories. Granted, none of them were unionized because almost anytime someone even mentioned the word the brass would hold a meeting where they essentially threatened to clean house and bring in a fresh batch of uneducated youngsters that didn't know better.

"Free market" is a dumb misleading term anyways. It misses out on the question of freedom for whom, since a business being able to do one thing can cause them to dominate others using their imbalance of power. E.g. child labor isn't conducive to freedom, but banning child labor falls under violating the "Free market."

[QUOTE=Paramud;51448754]I'm assuming by the way that you post that you've never actually worked in a factory. Factory work is rarely a preferred line of work. It's hard, unforgiving, and usually dangerous. The people who work these jobs are typically doing so because they either can't find work elsewhere, or because they're desperate for the money. Virtually [b]everyone[/b] I've ever worked with would've quit if they had alternatives. They simply felt that they didn't. I can confidently say that no, the average factory employee will not quit over poor workplace standards. They're usually desperate enough to stay in the job until it becomes a serious risk to their immediate health.[/QUOTE] I never have worked in a factory. I always assumed that we had progressed since the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire but, by your description, not much has changed and $24/hr is tycoon money. I was also working off the assumption that having a job was better than not having one. [B]This whole conversation is working off the massive unfounded assumption that safety regulations are going to be slashed.[/B]

[QUOTE=Paramud;51448778]I work in factories. Granted, none of them were unionized because almost anytime someone even mentioned the word the brass would hold a meeting where they essentially threatened to clean house and bring in a fresh batch of uneducated youngsters that didn't know better.[/QUOTE] The lack of unions is your problem here. I've worked a factory job before, not for long and only as a short summer gig after I left a somewhat decent paying job for my age to pursue college. Everyone was overworked, most if not all of the workers were african immigrants probably not earning more then the minimum wage. It was a newspaper factory so it was on its way out with the industry. Minimum wage is suppose to be a living wage but 24/hr is still well within 'working man' tier.

So here's where all of Facepunch's Trump voters went. Nary a peep to be heard in the unending barrage of catastrophic cabinet appointments, policy announcements, open warfare against the scientific fact of climate change, etc, but in a thread about a small time factory being salvaged (with marked potential consequences for workers' rights, mind you), we're treated to a slew of shitposts about [I]Trump Winning Too Hard[/I]? Trump has already been an unmitigated disaster for this country, and he hasn't even taken office yet. You'll have to forgive my lack of exuberance for this hollow victory. Deregulating dying industries is doing us no favors. Striking down health, safety, and environmental regulations will have serious long term drawbacks. He's trying to cling to the days of an industrialized America, but those days passed sixty years ago and they aren't coming back.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;51448739]It was claimed in the article that Carrier was bleeding money due to bad PR from Trump constantly bringing them up during the election. It was one of their motivators to keep half the jobs here because they wouldn't even be saving that much anymore. [editline]29th November 2016[/editline] Trying to fix bad PR explains the tweet.[/QUOTE] So, what, Trump called Carrier up and said he was going to keep shit talking them until they gave in and kept half their jobs in the US? Was Trump's bullying really that effective to their bottom line to cause them to abandon a plan to shift production to cheaper grounds?

[QUOTE=Paramud;51448778]I work in factories. Granted, none of them were unionized because almost anytime someone even mentioned the word the brass would hold a meeting where they essentially threatened to clean house and bring in a fresh batch of uneducated youngsters that didn't know better.[/QUOTE] Most of the ones around me in Ohio rustbelt still paid in the 20's for positions like that.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;51448807]I never have worked in a factory. I always assumed that we had progressed since the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire but, by your description, not much has changed and $24/hr is tycoon money. I was also working off the assumption that having a job was better than not having one. [B]This whole conversation is working off the massive unfounded assumption that safety regulations are going to be slashed.[/B][/QUOTE] I mean, I agree that it'd be better to just quit than deal with shitty workplaces, but I've been lucky enough to live with my parents so my rent has been extremely cheap. If I'd been paying the average rate for renting a place around here, I'd absolutely need a second job. I wouldn't have been able to get a car, I wouldn't have been able to afford my health stuff, and I'd pretty much have little to no money for anything outside of basic living requirements. And, again this is just from my experience in this area, most people working towards the bottom in a factory seem to be in that position. No one I've ever worked with could even consider paying for their kid's college tuition unless they were day dreaming about winning the lottery.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51448830]So, what, Trump called Carrier up and said he was going to keep shit talking them until they gave in and kept half their jobs in the US? Was Trump's bullying really that effective to their bottom line to cause them to abandon a plan to shift production to cheaper grounds?[/QUOTE] Don't ask me. Read the article. [quote]While Carrier will forfeit some $65 million a year in savings the move was supposed to generate, that’s a small price to pay to avoid the public relations damage from moving the jobs as well as a possible threat to United Technologies’ far-larger military contracting business.[/quote]

Found this from [URL="http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/29/trump-to-reveal-deal-to-keep-nearly-1000-carrier-corp-jobs-in-indiana-sources.html"]CNBC[/URL] [QUOTE]Under a deal negotiated by Vice President-elect Mike Pence and UTX CEO Greg Hayes, the company will now keep most of those jobs in Indiana, sources close to the matter told CNBC. While terms of the deal are not yet clear, the sources indicated there were new incentives on offer from the state of Indiana, where Pence is governor, that helped clear a path for the agreement. [/QUOTE] So yeah, Pence used his connections as Indiana governor to essentially incentivize Carrier to stay in the state. More interestingly; [QUOTE]While UTX was seeking the savings that would come from moving some production to Mexico, people familiar with the situation indicated that the savings were not worth incurring the wrath of the incoming administration, including the potential threat to the significant business that UTX currently conducts with the U.S. government, largely in the form of orders for jet engines and other defense-related equipment.[/QUOTE] I mean, credit where credit is due, Trump kept 1000 jobs in America that probably would have left had anyone else been president, but mostly because no one else chose the governor of the state the plant is located in as VP and this particular company could be strongarmed into keeping jobs at home due to their dealings in defense. [editline]30th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=King Tiger;51448844]Don't ask me. Read the article.[/QUOTE] I can't read the article, I'm out of free NYT articles I guess. CNBC was illuminating.

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51448816]The lack of unions is your problem here. I've worked a factory job before, not for long and only as a short summer gig after I left a somewhat decent paying job for my age to pursue college. Everyone was overworked, most if not all of the workers were african immigrants probably not earning more then the minimum wage. It was a newspaper factory so it was on its way out with the industry. Minimum wage is suppose to be a living wage but 24/hr is still well within 'working man' tier.[/QUOTE] That sounds about right. In SoCal most of the people working these jobs are first or second generation Mexican immigrants. A lot of my coworkers were openly afraid that if they lost their job, they wouldn't be able to find another due to the language barrier. Really, the rivalry between factories and unions needs to be put to an end, because really that's what fucks over employees 90% of the time and it's damn near impossible to form a union if you don't know exactly what you're doing.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51448820]So here's where all of Facepunch's Trump voters went. Nary a peep to be heard in the unending barrage of catastrophic cabinet appointments, policy announcements, open warfare against the scientific fact of climate change, etc, but in a thread about a small time factory being salvaged (with marked potential consequences for workers' rights, mind you), we're treated to a slew of shitposts about [I]Trump Winning Too Hard[/I]? Trump has already been an unmitigated disaster for this country, and he hasn't even taken office yet. You'll have to forgive my lack of exuberance for this hollow victory. Deregulating dying industries is doing us no favors. Striking down health, safety, and environmental regulations will have serious long term drawbacks. He's trying to cling to the days of an industrialized America, but those days passed sixty years ago and they aren't coming back.[/QUOTE] Do I have to post in every thread about Trump to make a point worth your consideration? Forgive me if I misread, but I haven't seen any mention of deregulation in relation to this deal. For all I know, the guy could've just thrown a wad of money into CAC's collective face to make his"deal." I feel you may be jumping to conclusions.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51448820]So here's where all of Facepunch's Trump voters went. Nary a peep to be heard in the unending barrage of catastrophic cabinet appointments, policy announcements, open warfare against the scientific fact of climate change, etc, but in a thread about a small time factory being salvaged (with marked potential consequences for workers' rights, mind you), we're treated to a slew of shitposts about [I]Trump Winning Too Hard[/I]? [B]Trump has already been an unmitigated disaster for this country, and he hasn't even taken office yet.[/B] You'll have to forgive my lack of exuberance for this hollow victory. Deregulating dying industries is doing us no favors. Striking down health, safety, and environmental regulations will have serious long term drawbacks. He's trying to cling to the days of an industrialized America, but those days passed sixty years ago and they aren't coming back.[/QUOTE] How? The only thing he has done is list some potential cabinet picks who haven't done anything yet.

[QUOTE=Chonch;51448913]Do I have to post in every thread about Trump to make a point worth your consideration? Forgive me if I misread, but I haven't seen any mention of deregulation in relation to this deal. For all I know, the guy could've just thrown a wad of money into CAC's collective face to make his"deal." I feel you may be jumping to conclusions.[/QUOTE] try reading the article

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51448957]How? The only thing he has done is list some potential cabinet picks who haven't done anything yet.[/QUOTE] He's throwing out all of NASA's climate research and his default position is that climate change does not exist. Climate change is the single greatest threat to the United States, and he's completely ignoring it.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51448957]How? The only thing he has done is list some potential cabinet picks who haven't done anything yet.[/QUOTE] DISASTER We have to abandon struggling industries communities, it's the only way forward. Also I still have no idea why Trump won!

[QUOTE=King Tiger;51448976]DISASTER We have to abandon struggling industries communities, it's the only way forward. Also I still have no idea why Trump won![/QUOTE] [QUOTE=geel9;51448970]He's throwing out all of NASA's climate research and his default position is that climate change does not exist. Climate change is the single greatest threat to the United States, and he's completely ignoring it.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=geel9;51448970]He's throwing out all of NASA's climate research and his default position is that climate change does not exist. Climate change is the single greatest threat to the United States, and he's completely ignoring it.[/QUOTE] How can you say "Trump has already been an unmitigated disaster for this country" when you haven't seen the result of his policies. We don't actually know what his climate change policies will be or what their effects will be yet.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51449018]How can you say "Trump has already been an unmitigated disaster for this country" when you haven't seen the result of his policies. We don't actually know what his climate change policies will be or what their effects will be yet.[/QUOTE] If someone point's a gun at me, I have a reasonable suspicion that I'm about to get shot. If the President-elect has a history of climate ignorance, I have a reasonable suspicion that the reality of it is going to be ignored.

Geel9 has a point with the second part though. Regardless of whatever he's replacing the NASA stuff with, he defaults on climate change [I]not existing[/I]. You don't need to wait for policies to come out of that, that shit right there is downright stupid.

[QUOTE=OvB;51449031]If someone point's a gun at me, I have a reasonable suspicion that I'm about to get shot. If the President-elect has a history of climate ignorance, I have a reasonable suspicion that the reality of it is going to be ignored.[/QUOTE] You say that, yet in the next breath you criticize Trump for flip flopping a million times and you claim that nobody actually knows what his true policies are. Pick one.