A speaker for Women's March was a raping, kidnapping murderer- is also getting a movie about her. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Octavius;51933716] She's not going back on trial though? What? [/QUOTE] I misread a previous post. My bad.

[QUOTE=TheJoey;51933742]but i don't, and please don't imply that i do. you tend to use these fallacies a lot. i don't really know what it's called, but whenever someone says something you disagree with you've twice in this page said something along the lines of "you believe in x? what, then you think they should y?" y being a whole lot more exaggerated than x ever implied. do you think that this makes your point any more valid? or do you truly believe that just because i don't want anything to do with a convicted murderer and rapist, and do not wish to support any sort of "movement" or "march" organized by a convicted murderer and rapist, that i also think every criminal should be executed? because clearly, no, i don't think that. learn new ways to debate or argue. please.[/QUOTE] I do think it makes my point more valid. You want to treat someone like trash because of their past actions, even if they are completely reformed and a good person now. If they're never able to move up from that point, why even live? What's the point if society would always consider them trash? That's what I'm trying to get at. I'm not trying to say you do think they should be killed. I'm defending a human being who has reformed and recognized they're wrongs. I think people like that have some worth in society and shouldn't be treated like somebody who is unreformed. (Also, not a convicted rapist.) I'm not saying her actions were right, and neither is she. I'm just saying she isn't currently being a horrible human like that and has changed, so maybe we shouldn't act like she hasn't. Your attitude towards reformed ex-cons is making you look pretty bad imo. [QUOTE=Xonax;51933768]You do know that severe Criminals aren't really well known for having a lot of respect after they committed a Crime right? I don't think we will ever fully accept Criminals like her back into Society. She killed a person, took a life away, hurt a family, hurt friends. Her actions will always be a part of her, she may be Rehabilitated, but expecting people to respect her as much as someone who didn't kill someone, is expecting a bit much. And it's awful but, she did commit a horrible crime. She is lucky to still be acknowledged by people.[/QUOTE] I do think you should consider her actions, but to dismiss and try tossing her out as worthless because of a past action that she has shown regret for? I think that's doing a bit much. We shouldn't just forget the crimes of an ex-con, but we shouldn't also let that be the sole basis for judging them as a present human. I think it's problematic that former criminals are always treated as criminals. They should be able to integrate in society and have some worth in life/contribute to the world, not be treated as outcasts.

[QUOTE=Octavius;51933756]I do think it makes my point more valid. You want to treat someone like trash because of their past actions, even if they are completely reformed and a good person now. If they're never able to move up from that point, why even live? What's the point? That's what I'm trying to get at. I'm not trying to say you do think they should be killed.[/QUOTE] You do know that severe Criminals aren't really well known for having a lot of respect after they committed a Crime right? I don't think we will ever fully accept Criminals like her back into Society. She killed a person, took a life away, hurt a family, hurt friends. Her actions will always be a part of her, she may be Rehabilitated, but expecting people to respect her as much as someone who didn't kill someone, is expecting a bit much. And it's awful but, she did commit a horrible crime. She is lucky to still be acknowledged by people.

[QUOTE=Octavius;51933756]I do think it makes my point more valid. You want to treat someone like trash because of their past actions, even if they are completely reformed and a good person now. If they're never able to move up from that point, why even live? What's the point if society would always consider them trash? That's what I'm trying to get at. [/QUOTE] is not wanting to do anything with anyone with a history of serious crime really treating someone like trash? is my personal preference for an interaction with someone really that extreme to you? i dont think she'd mind. i'm sure she has thicker skin than that.

[QUOTE=Octavius;51933756] I do think you should consider her actions, but to dismiss and try tossing her out as worthless because of a past action that she has shown regret for? I think that's doing a bit much. We shouldn't just forget the crimes of an ex-con, but we shouldn't also let that be the sole basis for judging them as a present human.[/QUOTE] I am not saying she is worthless or to treat her like garbage. I am saying you can't fully respect someone who killed a person. If it was an accident, sure I personally would be more lenient. But she killed him with the intent of torturing and killing him for money. That is despicable and I can't respect her as much as I respect a stranger down the street. She didn't just kill a Man, she hurt his Family by doing that, his friends, people who knew him. You can't really easily forgive someone like that. Not matter how rehabilitated they are.

[QUOTE=Octavius;51933738]Great, but that's not what her talk was about. Sorry she didn't choose to cover your preferred topic and instead talks about her experience as a person who was abused and how it shaped her life and played in a role in her eventually doing horrible shit like that. IMO that's an even more compelling topic since it covers the horrible effects that abuse may result in eventually.[/QUOTE] okay maybe you don't want to acknowledge this but the fact she did those things and is giving talks about how horrible those things are for one gender while having actually perpetrated her actions on the other gender is actually a problem for some people and acting like they're crazy for seeing that as an issue as you are is a clear problem

[QUOTE=TheJoey;51933781]is not wanting to do anything with anyone with a history of serious crime really treating someone like trash? is my personal preference for an interaction with someone really that extreme to you? i dont think she'd mind. i'm sure she has thicker skin than that.[/QUOTE] I think it is a problematic attitude to have. It's one that dominates our current society and plays a role in ex-cons being ostracized from society and not re-integrating, and then committing crimes yet again. So I do think that your attitude is bad and should be opposed. I'm not saying you should be best buds with the person, but to "avoid them at all costs" is treating them like the plague and not a human being. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51933786]okay maybe you don't want to acknowledge this but the fact she did those things and is giving talks about how horrible those things are for one gender while having actually perpetrated her actions on the other gender is actually a problem for some people and acting like they're crazy for seeing that as an issue as you are is a clear problem[/QUOTE] My bad, forgot people don't change ever over or recognize what they did was wrong.

[QUOTE=Octavius;51933794]I think it is a problematic attitude to have. It's one that dominates our current society and plays a role in ex-cons being ostracized from society and not re-integrating, and then committing crimes yet again. So I do think that your attitude is bad and should be opposed. I'm not saying you should be best buds with the person, but to "avoid them at all costs" is treating them like the plague and not a human being. My bad, forgot people don't change ever over or recognize what they did was wrong.[/QUOTE] Sure they do But there's also people that never do that, and just act like that because they have an understanding of self preservation. I'm 100% for rehabilitation. I think it's the way forward. I'm sorry I can't just forget entirely that a woman tortured a man, and is now in a place to lead the discussion on that topic and she's deciding instead to not do so. Serious question If a man tortured a woman, cut off her clitoris, killed her, all of that horrible shit, and 20 years later was saying "I'm sorry", how seriously would you take that man? Something tells me less seriously than this woman

[QUOTE=Octavius;51933794]I think it is a problematic attitude to have. It's one that dominates our current society and plays a role in ex-cons being ostracized from society and not re-integrating, and then committing crimes yet again. So I do think that your attitude is bad and should be opposed. I'm not saying you should be best buds with the person, but to "avoid them at all costs" is treating them like the plague and not a human being. My bad, forgot people don't change ever over or recognize what they did was wrong.[/QUOTE] Lets say, Hypothetically, Osama Bin Laden was captured, arrested, and rehabilitated. Would you be able to give him as much respect as everyone else? The same guy, who killed hundreds of people? Not for money, not for fame, but for his views? You would be able to forgive him? _EDIT_ What about Gertrude Baniszewski? She tortured and killed her. Let kids rape her. Beat her, burnt her, forced her to eat her feces, and so much much more. Worse than the lady in the OP. Could you forgive her if she was Rehabilitated?

Octavius I don't think you even get the key complaint people like myself have, and I think you're actively trying to convince yourself both that we don't have a point, and that we're just hateful against ex-cons.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51933801] If a man tortured a woman, cut off her clitoris, killed her, all of that horrible shit, and 20 years later was saying "I'm sorry", how seriously would you take that man? Something tells me less seriously than this woman[/QUOTE] I would take him less seriously. But that's because saying "I'm sorry" is a lot less of a demonstration of reformation and contribution to society than this woman has shown. Also, personally, I do think it's fair of her to address abuse as a topic, since that's what formed her as a person and played a large role in her life. It's a vital topic to her history. [QUOTE=Xonax;51933802]Lets say, Hypothetically, Osama Bin Laden was captured, arrested, and rehabilitated. Would you be able to give him as much respect as everyone else? The same guy, who killed hundreds of people? Not for money, not for fame, but for his views? You would be able to forgive him?[/QUOTE] If he became a public figure and started contributing positively to society and working to make it better, I couldn't say I'd forgive him, but I'd respect him more than before (It'd be barely any, but a micron more than the 0 I had before). But that's a different situation. Bin Laden had a repeated history of his actions over a sustained period, plus his role and the severity are different, and that plays a role. Hypothetical situations like this really aren't useful though. If you could find a real event of somebody being rehabilitated and then contributing to society and then ask me about that, then we could talk. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51933804]Octavius I don't think you even get the key complaint people like myself have, and I think you're actively trying to convince yourself both that we don't have a point, and that we're just hateful against ex-cons.[/QUOTE] A lot of complains simply seem to be a manifestation of that though. The complaint of hypocrisy also doesn't hold much weight, for the same reason of people being able to change and recognize what they've done wrong. It's not hypocritical to do something wrong, realize it is wrong, then start to work against people doing things that are wrong. If she was advocating for men to be abused and women to not be, that'd be hypocrisy and horrible. But she isn't doing that

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51933701]If you commit a crime, get rehabilitated and later end up in a situation where you have to discuss that crime, you better fucking be honest and disclose the fact you were involved in committing that crime and got reprehended for it. Because rehabilitation doesn't wipe your slate clean. People expect a level of honesty that compels such disclosures.[/QUOTE] It's on [URL="http://www.donnahylton.com/donna-hylton"]her website[/URL] so I don't think she's hiding anything also hey a video of her talking [video=youtube;rPdJh-R31OE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPdJh-R31OE[/video]

[QUOTE=Octavius;51933828]I would take him less seriously. But that's because saying "I'm sorry" is a lot less of a demonstration of reformation and contribution to society than this woman has shown. Also, personally, I do think it's fair of her to address abuse as a topic, since that's what formed her as a person and played a large role in her life. It's a vital topic to her history. If he became a public figure and started contributing positively to society and working to make it better, I couldn't say I'd forgive him, but I'd respect him more than before (It'd be barely any, but a micron more than the 0 I had before). But that's a different situation. Bin Laden had a repeated history of his actions over a sustained period, plus his role and the severity are different, and that plays a role.[/QUOTE] When speaking about abuse, should she not disclose she's an abuser? I'm just trying to understand how this works in your mind honestly, so the guy does all the same acts of rehabilitation she does, do you "Forgive him" as unanimously, completely, and utterly as you have forgiven her? Sure, she can talk about abuse. So can an abusive husband, but no one wants to listen to them, even if they were beat as kids too giving them an explanation for their actions [editline]8th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Octavius;51933828] A lot of complains simply seem to be a manifestation of that though. The complaint of hypocrisy also doesn't hold much weight, for the same reason of people being able to change and recognize what they've done wrong. It's not hypocritical to do something wrong, realize it is wrong, then start to work against people doing things that are wrong. If she was advocating for men to be abused and women to not be, that'd be hypocrisy and horrible. But she isn't doing that[/QUOTE] No she's just talking about female abuse only in a world where male problems are growing in size, but shrinking in our social consciousness

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51933849]When speaking about abuse, should she not disclose she's an abuser? I'm just trying to understand how this works in your mind honestly, so the guy does all the same acts of rehabilitation she does, do you "Forgive him" as unanimously, completely, and utterly as you have forgiven her? Sure, she can talk about abuse. So can an abusive husband, but no one wants to listen to them, even if they were beat as kids too giving them an explanation for their actions [editline]8th March 2017[/editline] No she's just talking about female abuse only in a world where male problems are growing in size, but shrinking in our social consciousness[/QUOTE] If somebody had the exactly same life as her but was a different gender or even race, or both, I'd treat them exactly the same, because they'd have done the exact same things. If there's an abusive husband out there who reformed and went on to talk about how abuse is wrong and worked against it, I think that he'd have value and should be heard. Their history of abuse and the actions they took later in life give them a good position to speak on the effects of abuse and where it can lead. She's talking about her personal experiences and I don't fault her for that. And as for male problems growing in size, I'd like to hear you expand on that.

[QUOTE=Octavius;51933870]If somebody had the exactly same life as her but was a different gender or even race, or both, I'd treat them exactly the same, because they'd have done the exact same things. If there's an abusive husband out there who reformed and went on to talk about how abuse is wrong and worked against it, I think that he'd have value and should be heard. They're history of abuse and the actions they took later in life give them a good position to speak on the effects of abuse and where it can lead. She's talking about her personal experiences and I don't fault her for that. And as for male problems growing in size, I'd like to hear you expand on that.[/QUOTE] Good for you, but the fact remains that the community at large would not do that, and would prefer the woman over the man in that situation. Women are forgiven much easier than men. Good for you, but I don't believe that it ultimately matters because the majority would still feel the man can't be forgiven. Seriously, go run it by some feminist friends of yours and see if they'd forgive an abusive husband or man as unilaterally as you are this woman. I'm not faulting her for talking about her experiences. I'm faulting her for lying by omission. Sure, this information is available, but her talks wouldn't lead you to believe that. I think, even if you're forgiving her, her former actions count and matter and have value and should be disclosed. Male suicide rates are rising and have been for sometime. Few people are actually showing any concern about that.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;51933845]It's on [URL="http://www.donnahylton.com/donna-hylton"]her website[/URL] so I don't think she's hiding anything also hey a video of her talking [video=youtube;rPdJh-R31OE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPdJh-R31OE[/video][/QUOTE] It wasn't her that is hiding. The Fact is that there was three suspect women speaking for the march, The one that's back on trial is Rasmea Yousef Odeh, accused of lying to the immigration authorities about her background, [B]which sounds minor, except for the fact she was a Palistinian Terrorist who bombed a supermarket 20 years ago, which killed 2 students and injured 9 other.[/B]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51933888]Good for you, but the fact remains that the community at large would not do that, and would prefer the woman over the man in that situation. Women are forgiven much easier than men. Good for you, but I don't believe that it ultimately matters because the majority would still feel the man can't be forgiven. Seriously, go run it by some feminist friends of yours and see if they'd forgive an abusive husband or man as unilaterally as you are this woman. I'm not faulting her for talking about her experiences. I'm faulting her for lying by omission. Sure, this information is available, but her talks wouldn't lead you to believe that. I think, even if you're forgiving her, her former actions count and matter and have value and should be disclosed. Male suicide rates are rising and have been for sometime. Few people are actually showing any concern about that.[/QUOTE] Okay? The majority of people here obviously aren't receptive of this woman being rehabilitated and integrating into society, and that's what I'm opposing. I'd be in the same situation if it was a man, and I'd expect to encounter similar resistance. Society has a problem of re-integration in general, and I think that as a whole needs to be addressed, but that doesn't take away from this specific case at this specific moment. Anyways, I don't think it's fair to say she was "lying by omission." As I and another poster has shown, this information is displayed right in her bio on her website and is easily found online. She isn't hiding it and has it out front. If it wasn't acknowledged openly like that, then I'd for sure agree with you on that. Her past actions matter and should be recognized, I think that too. I just believe that isn't all we should care about when judging somebody's current value, and should look at the trend of her life rather than a single point. And as to male suicide rates, I've seen the topic of rising suicide rates around, especially as it relates to 45-60 year olds. As for it rising for males, I believe that applies to both genders, but the real problem is that the suicide rate among males is just higher in general, which is also something I've seen addressed. I do think we need to take action to move against this more and society needs to tackle that problem, but that's a it's own complicated discussion and certainly doesn't necessitate that a person stop working on addressing abuse.

[QUOTE=Octavius;51933951]Okay? The majority of people here obviously aren't receptive of this woman being rehabilitated and integrating into society, and that's what I'm opposing. I'd be in the same situation if it was a man, and I'd expect to encounter similar resistance. Society has a problem of re-integration in general, and I think that as a whole needs to be addressed, but that doesn't take away from this specific case at this specific moment. Anyways, I don't think it's fair to say she was "lying by omission." As I and another poster has shown, this information is displayed right in her bio on her website and is easily found online. She isn't hiding it and has it out front. If it wasn't acknowledged openly like that, then I'd for sure agree with you on that. Her past actions matter and should be recognized, I think that too. I just believe that isn't all we should care about when judging somebody's current value, and should look at the trend of her life rather than a single point. And as to male suicide rates, I've seen the topic of rising suicide rates around, especially as it relates to 45-60 year olds. As for it rising for males, I believe that applies to both genders, but the real problem is that the suicide rate among males is just higher in general, which is also something I've seen addressed. I do think we need to take action to move against this more and society needs to tackle that problem, but that's a it's own complicated discussion and certainly doesn't necessitate that a person stop working on addressing abuse.[/QUOTE] Nothing mandates we stop working on one problem to work on another, and I wasn't requesting or demanding one. I do think it's fair because she's giving talks specifically on abuse. She's an abuser. She is openly acknowledging these things, everywhere but from her own speeches. I feel like that's valuable, no she doesn't have to act like she's at an AA meeting everytime she opens her mouth as you fallaciously implied earlier. Not even remotely. But she's speaking about abuse, and there will be people listening who don't know who she is, and won't take the time to learn. She should be acknowledging that.

[QUOTE=Sableye;51933703]she also was a victim of those same things as a little girl...[/QUOTE] Boo fucking hoo. Once a sick bitch, always a sick bitch. Want to know who else was a victim of child abuse? This motherfucker: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Chikatilo[/url]

[QUOTE=Sableye;51933703]she also was a victim of those same things as a little girl...[/QUOTE] It's tragic that she suffered so much as a child, but she made this choice as an adult. Victim or not at this point you should know what is right and what is wrong. She made the wrong choice and she shouldn't be allowed to simply just shrug off the horrible things she has done. If she wants to be part of a movement she must be completely transparent and acknowledge that what she did was wrong. Even then I still wouldn't allow her to speak. No matter how much you wish to repent you can't wash away the stains of rape, torture, and murder. No one has the right to walk away from something as despicable and disgusting as that.

Holy fucking shit. This is really fucking horrific.

[QUOTE=Thlis;51933113] Heres the kind of content she posts. [media]https://twitter.com/lsarsour/status/534073703588700160[/media] [/QUOTE] also full of pseudophilosophical stuff like this [t]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6b3Nr_VUAAcdwR.jpg:large[/t]

[QUOTE=Lebofly;51933634]Yeah by the sounds of it your scenario was accidental?[/QUOTE] Do you think this woman is proud of what she did?

[QUOTE=Octavius;51933828] If he became a public figure and started contributing positively to society and working to make it better, I couldn't say I'd forgive him, but I'd respect him more than before (It'd be barely any, but a micron more than the 0 I had before). But that's a different situation. Bin Laden had a repeated history of his actions over a sustained period, plus his role and the severity are different, and that plays a role. Hypothetical situations like this really aren't useful though. If you could find a real event of somebody being rehabilitated and then contributing to society and then ask me about that, then we could talk. [/QUOTE] What about Gertrude Baniszewski? She tortured and killed a Child she was paid to look after. Let kids rape her. Beat her, burnt her, forced her to eat her feces, and so much much more. Worse than the lady in the OP. Could you forgive her if she was Rehabilitated?

Can't believe someone is unironically defending her

[QUOTE=Xonax;51934284]What about Gertrude Baniszewski? She tortured and killed a Child she was paid to look after. Let kids rape her. Beat her, burnt her, forced her to eat her feces, and so much much more. Worse than the lady in the OP. Could you forgive her if she was Rehabilitated?[/QUOTE] No, she made the decision on her own, the moment you give orders or even commit the crime, you gave up your place in society for something far lower. If you were the parent or a loved one of those victims, would you forgive them? [QUOTE=Trebgarta;51934431]Yes. Ignoring the fact that the woman in the OP had a secondary role in the murder, as described by the prosecutors. Whats the point of rehabilitation if you are going to treat criminals as subhumans? Just kill all violent criminals then.[/QUOTE] Why should we give them the benefit of the doubt? They committed a crime against innocence, you cannot show mercy to them.

[QUOTE=justinl132;51934449]Why should we give them the benefit of the doubt? They committed a crime against innocence, you cannot show mercy to them.[/QUOTE] That'd be fine if we lived in Judge Dredd.

[QUOTE=JeSuisIkea;51934517]That'd be fine if we lived in Judge Dredd.[/QUOTE] Does Detroit ring a bell?

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51934431]Yes. Ignoring the fact that the woman in the OP had a secondary role in the murder, as described by the prosecutors. Whats the point of rehabilitation if you are going to treat criminals as subhumans? Just kill all violent criminals then.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying all criminals don't deserve forgiveness. Only severe ones like murderers, rapists, so on. You have to earn it, and so far the lady in the op has yet to do that. You gotta prove you are rehabilitated. "But she spoke at the March" That's a good start. Sure. But it's barely a dent IMO. [QUOTE=justinl132;51934449]No, she made the decision on her own, the moment you give orders or even commit the crime, you gave up your place in society for something far lower. If you were the parent or a loved one of those victims, would you forgive them? Why should we give them the benefit of the doubt? They committed a crime against innocence, you cannot show mercy to them.[/QUOTE] Just to clear up, I don't like criminals (severe ones, murderers, rapists, so on) might have me confused with octavius/someone else. Eitherway. no. Wouldn't be able to forgive them.

This situation is not black and white at all. Fucked up circumstances led Hylton to do fucked up things. Without those circumstances she has no reason to do those things. Of course you can't know off the bat who's going to repeat their crimes and who's not, but she's been in the process of being evaluated for decades. Also you can't simply compare her to other criminals beacause obviously each case if different. She for one didn't do the crime for funsies, but got caught up in a gang type of deal. Is she a good speaker choice? I don't know, but I don't think any of us really know what kind of a person she is now.