Royal Marine says he only shot an injured Afghan insurgent because he thought they were already dead - Polidicks

it seems like when a normal person murders another person they are a monster that deserves life in prison. when you put a fucking uniform on that person a lot of people immediately feel sorry for him. this guy is a murderer and the way he describes his kill as simply a "lack of self-control" is absolutely disgusting.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42701934]The soldier said he was wrong so all the people trying to apologize for him are standing on no ground at all.[/QUOTE] I don't understand what point you're trying to make. I know that I'm personally not "apologizing for him," I am rationally explaining the psychological issues that cause such behavior and why he is both responsible for his actions yet not to the extent that a normal person like you or I are. Take for example if you go out and murder a random person, you are fully accountable for your actions, this soldier on the other hand, he was placed in a position of being constantly under the threat of extreme physical harm by the person, or similar people, that he killed. At some point our minds deteriorate, we see all similar people as threats, because our mind has associated the threat with that object. The same happens to people that have phobias, often times they have a reason to associate the fear of X with a series of events that caused severe emotional trauma.

[QUOTE=teh pirate;42701402]The safety of our soldiers comes first in my mind. Requiring them to approach and treat injured combatants who are regularly strapped or who are known to do the grenade thing needlessly endangers them.[/QUOTE] sending soldiers to afghanistan in the first place needlessly endangers them.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42701995]it seems like when a normal person murders another person they are a monster that deserves life in prison. when you put a fucking uniform on that person a lot of people immediately feel sorry for him. this guy is a murderer and the way he describes his kill as simply a "lack of self-control" is absolutely disgusting.[/QUOTE] Do you actually believe that all murderers are "monsters"? [editline]30th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=draugur;42702006]I don't understand what point you're trying to make. I know that I'm personally not "apologizing for him," I am rationally explaining the psychological issues that cause such behavior and why he is both responsible for his actions yet not to the extent that a normal person like you or I are. Take for example if you go out and murder a random person, you are fully accountable for your actions, this soldier on the other hand, he was placed in a position of being constantly under the threat of extreme physical harm by the person, or similar people, that he killed. At some point our minds deteriorate, we see all similar people as threats, because our mind has associated the threat with that object. The same happens to people that have phobias, often times they have a reason to associate the fear of X with a series of events that caused severe emotional trauma.[/QUOTE] I'm not talking about any possible psychological issues. I'm talking about people who say "They have to shoot twice because the insurgent might blow them up!"

It has always seemed strange to me that you are allowed to shoot someone in the face with bullets, but if you shoot a laser into their eyes to cause blindness you get in trouble. I'd rather be blind than dead.

[QUOTE=Aide;42701611]The geneva convention that our enemy is not bound to.[/QUOTE] oh ok why didn't you say so guys you can just start shooting everyone why not rape and pillage a couple villages while you're at it

[QUOTE=Explosions;42702019]Do you actually believe that all murderers are "monsters"? [editline]30th October 2013[/editline] I'm not talking about any possible psychological issues. I'm talking about people who say "They have to shoot twice because the insurgent might blow them up!"[/QUOTE] Yes but they go hand in hand really, your natural instinct when pushed into fight instead of flight is to fight until there is no possibility of you being harmed. Soldiers are essentially brainwashed to always activate fight instead of flight, because flight causes our soldiers to die, and the politicians to lose their oil war. So when you have people faking death to do things like pull a grenade, this is a adaptation of the threat, this threat is now no longer just until they are no longer fighting, because they could still be fighting, so your natural instinct tells you to continue to fight, because there is still a possibility of danger. You can't take it all black and white, psychology is a massive grey area. Basically yes, this man should face consequences for his actions, but just like with any murderer, he should be offered mental help, he is no more a monster than what war has made him. He is no more a monster than you or I are capable of being if we were suddenly under constant threat of death 24/7.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42702019]Do you actually believe that all murderers are "monsters"? [/QUOTE] no, but i think a murderer in a uniform and a murderer in plain clothes are essentially indistinguishable.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42702098]no, but i think a murderer in a uniform and a murderer in plain clothes are essentially indistinguishable.[/QUOTE] I agree. [editline]30th October 2013[/editline] I'd be interested to know if you consider combat deaths to be murders. This is a serious question. [editline]30th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=draugur;42702097]Yes but they go hand in hand really, your natural instinct when pushed into fight instead of flight is to fight until there is no possibility of you being harmed. Soldiers are essentially brainwashed to always activate fight instead of flight, because flight causes our soldiers to die, and the politicians to lose their oil war. So when you have people faking death to do things like pull a grenade, this is a adaptation of the threat, this threat is now no longer just until they are no longer fighting, because they could still be fighting, so your natural instinct tells you to continue to fight, because there is still a possibility of danger. You can't take it all black and white, psychology is a massive grey area.[/QUOTE] You have no evidence for any of this and you are speaking for the man when he already said he had a lapse in judgement.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42702104]I agree. [editline]30th October 2013[/editline] I'd be interested to know if you consider combat deaths to be murders. This is a serious question.[/QUOTE] yes i would, but i don't believe a soldier to be the main perpetrator of that sort of murder. i think they are culpable only to the extent that they are used as tools of military commanders and politicians to commit murder. in that sense, politicians and generals are the murderers, just as charles manson is considered a murderer even though he never personally killed someone. however, the way this particular soldier describes his kill is disturbing. shooting someone defenseless as a "lack of self-control" would be considered sociopathic in a civilian setting.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42702174]yes i would, but i don't believe a soldier to be the main perpetrator of that sort of murder. i think they are culpable only to the extent that they are used as tools of military commanders and politicians to commit murder. in that sense, politicians and generals are the murderers, just as charles manson is considered a murderer even though he never personally killed someone. however, the way this particular soldier describes his kill is disturbing. shooting someone defenseless, as a "lack of self-control", would be considered sociopathic in a civilian setting.[/QUOTE] So the perpetrators of aggressive wars are the real murderers. I believe that. But yes, this was a war crime and the soldier in question is a murderer. He killed a man in cold blood for no reason.

[QUOTE=Flem;42701146]Why the fuck does it even matter hes the enemy that needs to be disposed off.[/QUOTE] this kind of dehumanizing thinking is what causes war crimes in the first place.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42702174]yes i would, but i don't believe a soldier to be the main perpetrator of that sort of murder. i think they are culpable only to the extent that they are used as tools of military commanders and politicians to commit murder. in that sense, politicians and generals are the murderers, just as charles manson is considered a murderer even though he never personally killed someone. however, the way this particular soldier describes his kill is disturbing. shooting someone defenseless as a "lack of self-control" would be considered sociopathic in a civilian setting.[/QUOTE] I have a feeling you would absolutely melt if you were in any sort of semi-dire situation, let alone after being shipped to a foreign country, being shot at daily, and then having to risk enemies you thought were eliminated only for you or another soldier to approach them and be blown to bits by an uneducated and brainwashed insurgent's grenade or bodyvest.

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;42702379]I have a feeling you would absolutely melt if you were in any sort of semi-dire situation, let alone after being shipped to a foreign country, being shot at daily, and then having to risk enemies you thought were eliminated only for you or another soldier to approach them and be blown to bits by an uneducated and brainwashed insurgent's grenade or bodyvest.[/QUOTE] that's why i don't join the military and don't believe anyone should.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42702405]that's why i don't join the military and don't believe anyone should.[/QUOTE] Someone has to, it's either we have a volunteer military or a conscription, pick one. As much as we'd all like to say we can live in a world of peace, that is literally never going to happen, humans are subject to greed, be it greed for power or resources.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42702405]that's why i don't join the military and don't believe anyone should.[/QUOTE] Without a military, what is there to protect a country? Wait, asking you that question is pretty meaningless, we already know your response.

[QUOTE=draugur;42702431]Someone has to, it's either we have a volunteer military or a conscription, pick one. As much as we'd all like to say we can live in a world of peace, that is literally never going to happen, humans are subject to greed, be it greed for power or resources.[/QUOTE] so i should support soldiers who sign up knowing that they are being shipped to a country we are invading for political or economic reasons, rather than defensive reasons? i can see the idea of someone joining the military in the event of their nation being invaded, or supporting the war effort in that case, but people who sign up now are just casting in their support for imperialism.

It's sad that I'm not shocked at seeing people here defend a soldier who kills someone in cold blood

[QUOTE=deadoon;42702433]Without a military, what is there to protect a country? Wait, asking you that question is pretty meaningless, we already know your response.[/QUOTE] our military doesn't protect our country, our military is outright endangering the people of the country right now.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42702460]so i should support soldiers who sign up knowing that they are being shipped to a country we are invading for political or economic reasons, rather than defensive reasons? i can see the idea of someone joining the military in the event of their nation being invaded, or supporting the war effort in that case, but people who sign up now are just casting in their support for imperialism.[/QUOTE] You're wrong about that too. Who are you to say that all people enlisting are doing it to further imperial motives? I was enlisted to pay for college, I was medically discharged during BCT but that's hardly relevant. The truth is, the military is just another way the poor of society can try to better themselves. Of course this leads to the aristocracy problem we face where all of us poor people die and the rich continue to live their bloody grand life of luxury, but still. A lot of people have either the military or a life of working in fast food, not everyone is able to afford a higher education, not everyone has everything paid for by their parents. From the way you talk I'm going to assume you grew up or are growing up in a middle class or even upper class family, so your understanding of the problems those of us in the lower class don't connect with you, you can't understand, you can sympathize, but you can't understand. You'll never have faced being cold and starving, so you can't understand what it is like. [editline]30th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;42702471]our military doesn't protect our country, our military is outright endangering the people of the country right now.[/QUOTE] The military does no more than what the politicians tell them to do. Faced with treason charges for not doing as they say, which is pretty much a sentence to life in Fort Leavenworth.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42702460]i can see the idea of someone joining the military in the event of their nation being invaded[/QUOTE] If this happens they don't care if you want to defend your nation or not, you're getting conscripted unless you have some injury or psychic/physical disability

[QUOTE=draugur;42702577]You're wrong about that too. Who are you to say that all people enlisting are doing it to further imperial motives? I was enlisted to pay for college, I was medically discharged during BCT but that's hardly relevant. The truth is, the military is just another way the poor of society can try to better themselves. Of course this leads to the aristocracy problem we face where all of us poor people die and the rich continue to live their bloody grand life of luxury, but still. A lot of people have either the military or a life of working in fast food, not everyone is able to afford a higher education, not everyone has everything paid for by their parents. From the way you talk I'm going to assume you grew up or are growing up in a middle class or even upper class family, so your understanding of the problems those of us in the lower class don't connect with you, you can't understand, you can sympathize, but you can't understand. You'll never have faced being cold and starving, so you can't understand what it is like.[/quote] congratulations on becoming a trained killer for the purpose of getting money. don't be surprised if i don't bake you a cake because i personally think going into the military to get college paid for is far worse than the misguided souls who delude themselves into thinking they are "protecting their country". [quote]The military does no more than what the politicians tell them to do. Faced with treason charges for not doing as they say, which is pretty much a sentence to life in Fort Leavenworth.[/QUOTE] yea so don't join the military when it's obvious that their actions aren't going to benefit the country. [editline]30th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Toyhobo;42702709]If this happens they don't care if you want to defend your nation or not, you're getting conscripted unless you have some injury or psychic/physical disability[/QUOTE] they probably wouldn't have to conscript. in the event of invasion people would be volunteering themselves left and right.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42702749]congratulations on becoming a trained killer for the purpose of getting money. don't be surprised if i don't bake you a cake because i personally think going into the military to get college paid for is far worse than the misguided souls who delude themselves into thinking they are "protecting their country". Yeah how dare I seek a higher education! Higher education should be reserved for those that can pay for it solely out of pocket! What business is it of a commoner to receive education anyway? yea so don't join the military when it's obvious that their actions aren't going to benefit the country. [editline]30th October 2013[/editline] they probably wouldn't have to conscript. in the event of invasion people would be volunteering themselves left and right.[/QUOTE] Yeah, how dare I seek higher education! Education should be reserved for those who can pay for it only! What business is it of a commoner to receive an education anyway? Disgusting proletariat filth I must be huh?

[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42702464]It's sad that I'm not shocked at seeing people here defend a soldier who kills someone in cold blood[/QUOTE] But the enemy must die no matter the cost rip and tear rip and tear you have a big turban you must have HUGE GUTS RIP AND TEAR

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42702749]congratulations on becoming a trained killer for the purpose of getting money. don't be surprised if i don't bake you a cake because i personally think going into the military to get college paid for is far worse than the misguided souls who delude themselves into thinking they are "protecting their country". yea so don't join the military when it's obvious that their actions aren't going to benefit the country. [editline]30th October 2013[/editline] they probably wouldn't have to conscript. in the event of invasion people would be volunteering themselves left and right.[/QUOTE] Then why don't you go be a politician if you don't have the balls to be a soldier but you want things to be different. Instead of sitting in your chair looking down on people whose live's are a hundred times more dangerous than yours, a hundred times more stressful as yours, and a hundred times less pampered than yours you could try and do something except post on a forum with a hilariously pretentious avatar and ideology because it takes no effort whatsoever to look at what someone did in the past, disregard every factor that caused them to do so, and while in the present say "what they did was objectively wrong." Oh and theres more reasons than wanting to be a government pawn or having an outlet for murderous temptations for joining the military. Such as college education, family problems, poverty, tons of things. [editline]30th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=RainbowStalin;42702830]But the enemy must die no matter the cost rip and tear rip and tear you have a big turban you must have HUGE GUTS RIP AND TEAR[/QUOTE] Yeah when you get close to those guts they explode and kill both of you, or instead of you, the combat medic.

[QUOTE=Grimhound;42701197]Some people in power don't understand that things like the Geneva Conventions were meant to be mutual things taken up by both sides in an army VS army conflict.[/QUOTE] [quote]ART. 2. — In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peacetime, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them. The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance. Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations.[I] They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power,[B] if[/B] the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.[/I][/quote] Common article II of the Fourth Geneva convention says otherwise. [url]http://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/xsp/.ibmmodres/domino/OpenAttachment/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/AE2D398352C5B028C12563CD002D6B5C/FULLTEXT/ATTXSYRB.pdf[/url] If the opposing side is not a member and does not adhere to the rules, then the conventions do not apply.

[QUOTE=RainbowStalin;42702830]But the enemy must die no matter the cost rip and tear rip and tear you have a big turban you must have HUGE GUTS RIP AND TEAR[/QUOTE] The impression I always get from these threads is one of murder being okay so long as you wear matching brown pants and a jacket and can flimsily justify it with "I'm stressed" or "But it's the [I]enemy[/I]"

ITT: Its okay to shoot injured people because they're bad guys

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42702868]ITT: Its okay to shoot injured people because they're bad guys[/QUOTE] The same people who defend this turn around and declare all peoples of the Middle East barbarians and savages too

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;42702837]Then why don't you go be a politician if you don't have the balls to be a soldier but you want things to be different. Instead of sitting in your chair looking down on people whose live's are a hundred times more dangerous than yours, a hundred times more stressful as yours, and a hundred times less pampered than yours you could try and do something except post on a forum with a hilariously pretentious avatar and ideology because it takes no effort whatsoever to look at what someone did in the past, disregard every factor that caused them to do so, and while in the present say "what they did was objectively wrong." Oh and theres more reasons than wanting to be a government pawn or having an outlet for murderous temptations for joining the military. Such as college education, family problems, poverty, tons of things. [/QUOTE] don't assume shit about my life just because i don't support your choice to volunteer your life to be a killer.