South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation - Polidicks

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;53181110]ah yes reparations take from those not responsible as payback to those long dead/gone[/QUOTE] What are your views on "nazi gold" and repatriation of stolen jewish art?

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;53181185]What are your views on "nazi gold" and repatriation of stolen jewish art?[/QUOTE] Because those were actively seized by the government and held for no other purpose but to benefit the government itself. Unlike land, that gold and art was purely for show. Those individuals are still alive that had their property taken, and can petition for it to be returned to them in a court of law. Note that they do not go after Germans for taking the gold/art because they are German. Meanwhile, some of these farmers were there for generations and had no part in apartheid nor the dealings in government. To go after them for reparations they have no blame for is asinine. By that logic, the Americas shouldn’t have a single European descendant there.

[QUOTE=V12US;53180697]Zimbabwe 2: Electric boogaloo[/QUOTE] Zimbabwe 2: Electric Starvealoo

I guess it's time for another brush war. What are they hoping to accomplish? Africa as a whole gets so much aid, and then some countries just throw their economy out the window. They are their own worst enemy.

[QUOTE=SKEEA;53181239]I guess it's time for another brush war. What are they hoping to accomplish? Africa as a whole gets so much aid, and then some countries just throw their economy out the window. They are their own worst enemy.[/QUOTE] International aid isn't necessarily a good thing though, sometimes it is what throws the economy out the window. For instance, there isn't any motivation to develop farming if you get all your food given to you for free.

[QUOTE=Hafring;53181259]International aid isn't necessarily a good thing though, sometimes it is what throws the economy out the window. For instance, there isn't any motivation to develop farming if you get all your food given to you for free.[/QUOTE] Indeed, but you can't say that this move by South Africa is a good idea. It'll just make things worse for them and it'll be a big setback.

[QUOTE=SKEEA;53181276]Indeed, but you can't say that this move by South Africa is a good idea. It'll just make things worse for them and it'll be a big setback.[/QUOTE] Not disagreeing with that, I think pretty much everyone agrees that this is an astonishingly stupid idea.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53181233]Because those were actively seized by the government and held for no other purpose but to benefit the government itself. Unlike land, that gold and art was purely for show. Those individuals are still alive that had their property taken, and can petition for it to be returned to them in a court of law. Note that they do not go after Germans for taking the gold/art because they are German. Meanwhile, some of these farmers were there for generations and had no part in apartheid nor the dealings in government. To go after them for reparations they have no blame for is asinine. [b]By that logic, the Americas shouldn’t have a single European descendant there.[/b][/QUOTE] If you take it to hyperbolic extremes yes. A fairer redistribution of wealth, from families who are wealthy from historic theft to families who are (and will remain) in poverty because of that theft isn't too unreasonable if approached in a sane way ie progressive taxes taking money from the rich and giving to the poor either directly or indirectly thru social improvements. Taking of farms and evicting of innocent people is wrong, no questions there imo, hell it's almost soviet tier bs, but LuaChobo was criticising reparations in general. Pretty much as a rule: the rich get richer and the poor stay poor - generations later people are still suffering from historic wrongdoings. Addendum to this : don't pick people out individually just have progressive tax on all rich peeps

Taking the farmland of people who've been using it for generations and know how to produce a steady crop and giving it to other randos based entirely on skin color sounds like a great way to cause a famine/economic collapse and kill thousands of people. It's not as if stuff like this has happened before with clearly shite results.

[QUOTE=Ericson666;53181161]Germany didn't keep any of the land or assets it siezed outside of it's borders after WWI or WWII, while, again, the 8% of the population representing whites in South Africa own 72% of the land as a direct result of racist property laws that were in effect as recently as 30 years ago. Germany has literally nothing to do with this beyond the very concept of reparations because while they were forced to actually give what they took back, the descendants of the people who benefitted from these laws are still benefitting to date. A land market that 80% of the population was completely blocked out of for 100 years is a completely unfair standard to continue with, and reforms of some sort are necessary to even the playing field. Again, I'm not saying to march in with rifles and kick everyone out, but some form of reform beyond the world collectively shrugging its shoulders and saying "well too late to do anything now" is necessary. At the very least, you have to recognize that the current state of land ownership systematically disadvantages black people and supports white people who gained the land.[/QUOTE] You misunderstood, my point was that reparations that are applied to people who have nothing to do with the establishment of such a regime, have no fucking place in South Africa or anywhere else in that matter. Germany back then did surrender their land or assets, and they were surrendered by the people responsible for/involved in seizing them in the first place. This is absolutely not the case here. This South African fiasco seems like a splendid move by a bunch of shitheads who just want to conveniently seize a bunch of sweet farm land for themselves. This is the kind of situation that requires thorough negotiation and planning on both sides of the deal in order to come to a compromise, not a "Fuck you it's mine now" move by bunch of questionable government authorities.

[QUOTE=Ericson666;53181118]Considering they still directly benefitted and continue to benefit from the land that was taken and then passed down to them, yes. Edit: The Native's Land Act that stripped most black people of their right to own property was enacted in 1913, slightly more than a hundred years ago, and was repealed in 1991 with the end of apartheid. "Long dead/gone" does not apply here.[/QUOTE] Why should someone alive now suffer for things that happened before they were alive or before they could have had any possible say in the matter?

[QUOTE=AaronM202;53181518]Why should someone alive now suffer for things that happened before they were alive or before they could have had any possible say in the matter?[/QUOTE] I agree! It's simply not fair for people today to suffer from crimes committed decades ago. It's not fair that entire families must live in poverty, suffer high crime rates , have no healthcare and go hungry because they started with nothing because it was taken from their parents and grandparents. Also yall acting like apartheid ended ages ago too

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;53181541]I agree! It's simply not fair for people today to suffer from crimes committed decades ago. It's not fair that entire families must live in poverty, suffer high crime rates , have no healthcare and go hungry because they started with nothing because it was taken from their parents and grandparents. Also yall acting like apartheid ended ages ago too[/QUOTE] So no attempt to parse the logical similarities and problems here Just a zinger. Really? No ones trying to say what happened to them was acceptable. Just that two wrongs don't make a right.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;53181541]I agree! It's simply not fair for people today to suffer from crimes committed decades ago. It's not fair that entire families must live in poverty, suffer high crime rates , have no healthcare and go hungry because they started with nothing because it was taken from their parents and grandparents. Also yall acting like apartheid ended ages ago too[/QUOTE] You're completely right, that isnt fair, but this is in no way the right thing to do, it'll only make the situation worse.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53181547]So no attempt to parse the logical similarities and problems here Just a zinger. Really? No ones trying to say what happened to them was acceptable. Just that two wrongs don't make a right.[/QUOTE] I was agreeing with him dude, it's totally wrong! "parse logical similarities"? +++reticulating splines+++ I already said taking of their land Soviet style was wrong, maybe read my post at top of page? [editline]6th March 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=AaronM202;53181551]You're completely right, that isnt fair, but this is in no way the right thing to do, it'll only make the situation worse.[/QUOTE] You're totally right it will make the situation worse. Fear for those families coz this sorta thing smells of mob mentality. If only they explored more moderate alternatives.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;53181575]Fear for those families? More like fear for the entire nation. Because last time a country pulled this bullshit, they went into a famine that they STILL haven't recovered from. Now instead of being poor and hungry, EVERYONE can be hungry, So i guess that's some measure of equality.. not that it's a good one.[/QUOTE] Zimbabwe and South Africa are fairly different from one another. South Africa today is more educated generally than Zimbabwe then and one would hope they'd look at that and do differently. I don't trust them to do well (South Africa is a mess) but assuming they're as bad as 80s Zimbabwe, fresh out of civil war run by an idiot warlord might be wrong.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;53181575]Fear for those families? More like fear for the entire nation. Because last time a country pulled this bullshit, they went into a famine that they STILL haven't recovered from. Now instead of being poor and hungry, EVERYONE can be hungry, So i guess that's some measure of equality.. not that it's a good one.[/QUOTE] Easiest way to eliminate economic inequality is to eliminate your economy.

[QUOTE=Ericson666;53181096]So the people who had their land stolen from them in the first place should just shrug their shoulders and say "well I guess they got us, no going back now!" and submit to life in poverty because now that white people amassed all the land, they're suddenly very interested in protecting the right to property? I don't know what the correct solution is here, but the fact that there was such a systemic approach to stripping the native African population of their land as recently as a few decades ago warrants reparations, and the government shrugging their shoulders and saying it's too late to do anything isn't justice at all[/QUOTE] The Boers actually were in South Africa before the Black South Africans (mostly Zulu, not native to the region at all). The real natives to South Africa are pretty much all gone iirc, now it's just White Europeans and Black africans from all over.

[QUOTE=NotMeh;53181139]literally how the fuck not? how many of the people who were in the government and/or able to vote back in 1913 are still alive today? in addition, if everyone followed this kind of braindead simpleton logic, the Germans would all be second-class citizens in their own country due to WW2 alone because reparations are [I]such a wonderful idea[/I] has history not shown that this kind of approach does not work?[/QUOTE] The treaty of Versailles is also ultimately one of the factors that lead to WW2 in the first place. Persecuting an entire people is a terrible fucking idea.

[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;53181760]The treaty of Versailles is also ultimately one of the factors that lead to WW2 in the first place. Persecuting an entire people is a terrible fucking idea.[/QUOTE] This is a myth. The “War Guilt Clause” (as the Germans termed it, but oddly enough not their Allies who also had the same clauses in their own seperate treaties) [quote]The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Germany accepts the responsibility of Germany and her allies for causing all the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Germany and her allies.[/quote] This is from the treaty of St-Germaine, which was the peace between the Allies and Austria. [quote]The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Austria accepts the responsibility of Austria and her Allies for causing the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Austria-Hungary and her Allies.[/quote] But aside from that, the only groups who did any real persecution post-war were the Germans. Even before the end of the war Kaiser Wilhelm was blaming German losses on the Jews. Lidendorff latched on to this and by November, 1918 the “Stab in the Back” myth was born. Germany had the means to pay off her reparations (which was determined by her capacity to pay), and the amount and timetable altered multiple times. WW2 was not caused by 1919. As Margaret MacMillin puts it [quote][The peacemakers] could not foresee the future, and they could not control it. When war came in 1939, it was a result of twenty years of decisions taken or not taken, not of arrangements made in 1919. The peacemakers had to deal with reality, not with what might have been.[/quote] Germany and her Allies undoubtedly and deliberately started a war of Agression in July and August 1914. What they paid was nothing, and in fact less harsh than what the Germans had imposed on France in 1871, ir the Germans imposed at Brest-Litvosk.

I really don't get the South African political strategy here, what good will these racist revenge politics bring to the country anyway? You're just fucking yourselves over, both internally and externally Your economy will collapse, internal tensions will keep rising and no one outside will want anything to do with you Literally what is even their goal?

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;53181980]short term appeasement and gambling that their infrastructure can survive so they can brag about it [editline]7th March 2018[/editline] anyone defending this shit in the same thread someone posted this is just, really strange take time to think about how much you really want to agree with this[/QUOTE] I dunno if anyone was outright agreeing with it, more agreeing with the idea that SOMETHING should be done. You and a few others just kicked up a storm of outrage and shot down some imaginary positions in full agreement.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;53180911]i remember being told at one point they ousted/deported all of the people working on the electrical grid and replaced them with black people with ties to native population the power grid then proceded to fail because they were basically just picked for their skin colour, they were entirely under-educated due to their tertiary education being subpar. they then proceeded to shut off the countries power for hours every week. this shits been going on for ages[/QUOTE] Didn’t they do this with the Police force as well? That’s why it’s in such a disarray?

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;53182080]what? i brought up how south africa is known for doing this and it has made the country suffer in past and other people were going on about "BUT APARTHEID" tier arguments thats hardly "kicking up a storm of outrage"[/QUOTE] But no one was outright agreeing with it? The only 'agreement' anyone made was the suggestion that more moderate approaches be taken and that something should be done about the issue. Did you miss all the emotionally charged posts responding to a point nobody made on the last page? And yes, the fact that apartheid ended only 27 years ago is a very valid point if you actually cared to engage with any of the posters you seemed to be disagreeing with.

Yeah this is an indefensibly shit thing to do compensation should be provided at the very least and even then it's a shit thing to do. That being said as I read through some of the more... dramatic posts I swear I can hear the ghosts of my ancestors giggling.

If these changes do come through, foreign investment will be basically dead as asset security cannot be guaranteed, and I hope we don't end up having to send food aid if it takes off.

Commercial purchases have done more to shift land ownership than government expropriation, which usually just rewards a clique [url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/who-owns-sas-land-20171028[/url] [quote] White farmers’ ownership of agricultural ground declined from 85.1% in 1994 (82.5 million hectares) to 73.3% in December 2016, and? altogether [b]5 million hectares of agricultural ground was bought by black people in this period[/b], as well as 1.7 million hectares for purposes other than agriculture. In the same period, [b]government purchased and redistributed only 2.1 million hectares[/b] of agricultural ground. In addition, provincial governments and municipalities bought and redistributed about 600 000 hectares of land, said Bornman. [/quote] [img]https://cdn.24.co.za/files/Cms/General/d/6654/f713ac3037f2420e82c7a57772518bdb.png[/img] Expropriating kulaks never ends well. This is about power, not justice, and does not spell good things for SA as a multiracial democracy

[QUOTE=Ericson666;53181073]Move into and colonize a foreign land, ban the natives from owning land and buy it all up, then cry foul when apartheid is thrown out and people are questioning why the 8% of South African who are white own 72% of individually owned farmland. [/QUOTE] "...therefore oppressing people and stealing their property based on their race/group is acceptable." Go read up on the liquidation of the Kulaks to see how this story ends.

[QUOTE=Ericson666;53181096]So the people who had their land stolen from them in the first place should just shrug their shoulders and say "well I guess they got us, no going back now!" and submit to life in poverty because now that white people amassed all the land, they're suddenly very interested in protecting the right to property? I don't know what the correct solution is here, but the fact that there was such a systemic approach to stripping the native African population of their land as recently as a few decades ago warrants reparations, and the government shrugging their shoulders and saying it's too late to do anything isn't justice at all[/QUOTE] Yoy're not wrong on the disgusting bullshit dealt with by native africans, but wat happened in the past is done and fucking other people over isn't going to undo that - but sure, let's say it's vital they get their former land back even though others have lives and homes set up now since the dipshit government monkeys seem intent of 'reclaiming' land that may well have been seized from the natives generations ago, with all parties originally involved now dead. Why don't they get any compensation? Is it so much to ask at the least for something to account for their lost livelihoods? [editline]7th March 2018[/editline] But fuck Mandela's hopes for transracial peace and unity right? Let's turn SA into a loosely democraticised Zimbabwe.

Well atleast the new president has made is clear he has a socialist agenda, hopefully this is a turn for the best to make the africans equal with the colonists