[QUOTE=imptastick;34481547]If it is not NECESSARY then we should not be using tax funds to pay for it. Even if they "really want it".[/QUOTE]
I never wanted people to lose tax dollars in the first place over this, I originally suggested that it would be better to have her get the surgery, then work it off for the 40-something years she's in prison.
[editline]31st January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=AngryChairR;34481558]go against God[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry but I cannot take you seriously now, if you're going to use that argument.
[QUOTE=AngryChairR;34481558]No I'm sorry but this is just incorrect, how can you say that a person born as a certain gender should then go against nature and God and choose to be the opposite? It doesn't work like that.
also
Therefore not entirely. Lacks function.[/QUOTE]
God is not an argument in a intellectual debate, and nature does not care about gender many species can change their sex at will.
[QUOTE=QueenSasha24;34481561]I'm sorry but I cannot take you seriously now, if you're going to use that argument.[/QUOTE]
Hey look a bigot
How did I guess that imptastick would be rated dumb by the bigot-brigade here?
[QUOTE=QueenSasha24;34481700]How did I guess that imptastick would be rated dumb by the bigot-brigade here?[/QUOTE]
Ironic.
[QUOTE=Bawbag;34481681]Hey look a bigot[/QUOTE]
I've already stopped taking you as any sort of valid imput, I'm not against christians but you can't use "god" in an intellectual argument, that's pretty much been established.
[QUOTE=imptastick;34481547]If it is not NECESSARY then we should not be using tax funds to pay for it. Even if they "really want it".[/QUOTE]
Not necessary for EVERYONE. For some people it is absolutely necessary.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;34481715]Not necessary for EVERYONE. For some people it is absolutely necessary.[/QUOTE]
I agree, sorry for miswording my post a bit.
[QUOTE=AngryChairR;34481558]-snip-
I refuse to argue with people that discount my views out of ignorance.[/QUOTE]
Actually, God DOES say it's okay.
My god does, thus it's totally cool.
^ see the problem? Your god is not fact, only theory, and is thus not applicable to this argument.
Also, everything is natural. You can't do something unnatural.
[editline]31st January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=QueenSasha24;34481720]I agree, sorry for miswording my post a bit.[/QUOTE]
I quoted the wrong person.
[QUOTE=AngryChairR;34481558]-snip-
I refuse to argue with people that discount my views out of ignorance.[/QUOTE]
It's not out of ignorance, I know what your god is and I understand your views, I just feels they have no place in argument based on facts.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;34481715]Not necessary for EVERYONE. For some people it is absolutely necessary.[/QUOTE]
My main argument remains that there are more immediate needs that should be addressed by tax dollars. We are too underfunded to allow surgery to treat non-life threatening issues while people are dying.
[QUOTE=imptastick;34481386]Why cant they just raise the money themselves their are obviously people willing to help the cause? When we still have people with serious infections and untreated medical problems we should not be considering paying for an expensive surgery that addresses a non-life threatening problem when there are more immediate needs?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=QueenSasha24;34481228]Do people commit crimes to get free food or beds? A tiny amount do, but that's a price we pay by not making our prisons like gulags.[/QUOTE]
Comparing prisons to gulags because we won't fix a person's body?
Go fuck yourself. This person does not deserve our money NOT because of their sexual orientation you dumb fuck but because of the operation itself. Stop playing the fucking discrimination card at every little thing, it's not that simple.
Yes they may be busting your balls or whatever you have about it but the thing it falls down to is the reason we need to shell out the cash for their operation. It's a disorder yes, a medical condition, but it is not life threatening so it still does not warrant taxpayer money.
[QUOTE=Gundevil;34482212]Comparing prisons to gulags because we won't fix a person's body?
Go fuck yourself. This person does not deserve our money NOT because of their sexual orientation you dumb fuck but because of the operation itself. Stop playing the fucking discrimination card at every little thing, it's not that simple.
Yes they may be busting your balls or whatever you have about it but the thing it falls down to is the reason we need to shell out the cash for their operation. It's a disorder yes, a medical condition, but it is not life threatening so it still does not warrant taxpayer money.[/QUOTE]
Whoa back up. I said the gulag comment because some facepunchers in other threads seem to want prisoners fed on bread and water and housed in cages. I probably should have been more clear on that. Sorry.
[QUOTE=QueenSasha24;34480635]Except it is a big deal if the person is a fully grown human being who lives and identifies as a woman.
It is offensive because the phrase has been used by transphobic bigots for a long time to identify them.
[editline]31st January 2012[/editline]
Why the hell is this post getting disagrees? It IS offensive to transgendered people.
[editline]31st January 2012[/editline]
Jesus christ, you just don't stop do you? I pity you that you feel the need to mock an already discriminated against minority on here.[/QUOTE]
First of all, because a minority is discriminated against doesn't make it all innocent and doesn't mean everyone should do whatever said minority tells them to do.
Second, stop being offended by bloody everything. Someone should post again that image of that one comedian who made fun of people who say "I'm offended" because it's exactly what's going on here.
Last but not least, this is not discrimination against her. If you read the entire article you'd see she already sued the state to get a free hormone therapy, and they accepted. They refused the second time around because it's starting to be a lot of stuff she's asking for, not because she's a Transgender and because lol discrimination.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;34482290]First of all, because a minority is discriminated against doesn't make it all innocent and doesn't mean everyone should do whatever said minority tells them to do.
Second, stop being offended by bloody everything. Someone should post again that image of that one comedian who made fun of people who say "I'm offended" because it's exactly what's going on here.
Last but not least, this is not discrimination against her. If you read the entire article you'd see she already sued the state to get a free hormone therapy, and they accepted. They refused the second time around because it's starting to be a lot of stuff she's asking for, not because she's a Transgender and because lol discrimination.[/QUOTE]
For half of this stuff i'm not even refering to the story, just trying to defend transgendered people from Bawbag and AngryChairR.
I'd prefer if the woman in question in the story got the surgery and paid it off, would be fair and make everyone happy.
[QUOTE=QueenSasha24;34482272]Whoa back up. I said the gulag comment because some facepunchers in other threads seem to want prisoners fed on bread and water and housed in cages. I probably should have been more clear on that. Sorry.[/QUOTE]
Alrighty. No harm done.
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34481511]before I'm called a bigot or something:
[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002495/[/url]
[url]http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/gender-identity-disorder/overview.html[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder[/url]
the recommended treatment is simply therapy in order to deal with the condition (like most psychological conditions)
patients are encouraged to get gender reassignment surgery if they really want it, but its not really guaranteed to help, and is definitely not necessary[/QUOTE]
I don't think you've ever really spent any time talking with someone who wasn't able to get the surgery and others who have gotten it
the ability to be physically closer to the sex you feel you are does a lot to help the mindset of the person and when you're talking about a group with a 41% rate of suicide attempts I think helping their mindset is important
It used to be that therapy was recommended for homosexuality as well
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;34481372]How do [i]you[/I] know that?[/QUOTE]
she has legs, tables have legs.
hmm
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34485320]I don't think you've ever really spent any time talking with someone who wasn't able to get the surgery and others who have gotten it
the ability to be physically closer to the sex you feel you are does a lot to help the mindset of the person and when you're talking about a group with a 41% rate of suicide attempts I think helping their mindset is important
It used to be that therapy was recommended for homosexuality as well[/QUOTE]
actually I do know 2 kids as well as one teacher at my school who've gone through with the gender reassignment surgery
it worked really well for the teacher, and he's adapted very well, I think it was the right choice
but although I haven't heard it straight out of the kids mouths, it doesn't seem like it's going well for them
one of them used to be super outgoing, even though they acted a little odd. now that they have done the surgery, I hardly see them talking to [i]anyone[/i], and I've been in multiple classes with them for the past 2 years
the other kid was out for a few months earlier this year, and I heard it was due to serious depression
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
if you're going to ask me to use evidence based on personal experiences, then I will, but I don't think this proves anything either way.
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34487795]actually I do know 2 kids as well as one teacher at my school who've gone through with the gender reassignment surgery
it worked really well for the teacher, and he's adapted very well, I think it was the right choice
but although I haven't heard it straight out of the kids mouths, it doesn't seem like it's going well for them
one of them used to be super outgoing, even though they acted a little odd. now that they have done the surgery, I hardly see them talking to [i]anyone[/i], and I've been in multiple classes with them for the past 2 years
the other kid was out for a few months earlier this year, and I heard it was due to serious depression
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
if you're going to ask me to use evidence based on personal experiences, then I will, but I don't think this proves anything either way.[/QUOTE]
Anecdotes mean very little, you're right, but as I've said a couple times before there's a 41% rate of suicide attempts in transgendered individuals
If therapy alone is the recommended treatment for GID then I'd say the recommended treatment isn't working
if the government was really concerned with these individuals committing suicide, they wouldn't be in jail would they?
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34488694]if the government was really concerned with these individuals committing suicide, they wouldn't be in jail would they?[/QUOTE]
Well you can't just institutionalize someone because they belong to a group with a high suicide rate
if someone's in jail it's probably because they did something against the law, sexuality/gender/sex isn't relevant in this case
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34488694]if the government was really concerned with these individuals committing suicide, they wouldn't be in jail would they?[/QUOTE]
Jailed =/= Government wants them dead
[QUOTE=QueenSasha24;34488799]Jailed =/= Government wants them dead[/QUOTE]
Government should definitely be doing something though
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34488755]Well you can't just institutionalize someone because they belong to a group with a high suicide rate
if someone's in jail it's probably because they did something against the law, sexuality/gender/sex isn't relevant in this case[/QUOTE]
Oh my fucking god just stop with the high suicide rate arguments already, for fucks sake
Because the minority you belong in has proven to have a lot of suicides (but still below the half) doesn't mean YOU are going to kill yourself and doesn't mean YOU should get a much better treatment than any other on the entire planet just to prevent your sorry little ass from hanging itself. If the person is clearly willing to kill herself then yeah you have to do something about it, but because she belongs to a vaguely defined minority that according to an obscure stat we still don't know shit about tend to kill itself a lot doesn't mean she has all rights on the planet and should be granted any single of her wish regardless of her prisoner status and regardless of everyone else's rights, even less when other people's money is involved.
I'm not saying the government wants them dead, but you can't use their suicide rate as a reason to pay for a treatment like this.
They're already part of a group with an incredibly high suicide rate, the prisoners around them.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;34490512]So what you're arguing is that she shouldn't get rights other people don't have.
I agree, but I disagree that she shouldn't be given the operation. The solution is clearly to make SRS free for [I]everyone,[/I]​ along with every other form of medical treatment for long-term disorders and diseases.[/QUOTE]
The problem is she already got the treatment she asked for (hormone therapy) and later asked for more, which is starting to be a lot. There's the fact that for one prisoner it makes a lot of granted stuff, but also the issue that other inmates may start to sue the state for random shit as well, and claim they need various stuff too and that they should get it because that one person got hormone therapy AND sex change surgery for free.
And yeah, I hate how transgenders are massively victimized and that victimization is used as an excuse to justify everything. A crazy person who happens to be transgender could come out of nowhere and cut a woman's breasts off to slap them on his chest, and there would still be people who'd say it's society's fault and that this person should have surgery to feel better and shit. Transgenders are misunderstood and people are afraid of them, WE GET IT, this is no excuse to ask everyone to pay for the dumb fucks who happen to hate transgenders. It's pretty much the same with a lot of minorities around, really.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;34489909]Oh my fucking god just stop with the high suicide rate arguments already, for fucks sake
Because the minority you belong in has proven to have a lot of suicides (but still below the half) doesn't mean YOU are going to kill yourself and doesn't mean YOU should get a much better treatment than any other on the entire planet just to prevent your sorry little ass from hanging itself. If the person is clearly willing to kill herself then yeah you have to do something about it, but because she belongs to a vaguely defined minority that according to an obscure stat we still don't know shit about tend to kill itself a lot doesn't mean she has all rights on the planet and should be granted any single of her wish regardless of her prisoner status and regardless of everyone else's rights, even less when other people's money is involved.[/QUOTE]
you're just a hate filled little cisgender kid aren't you
if you don't think 1.6% to 41% is statistically significant you're wrong
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34492845]I'm not saying the government wants them dead, but you can't use their suicide rate as a reason to pay for a treatment like this.
They're already part of a group with an incredibly high suicide rate, the prisoners around them.[/QUOTE]
the rate of prisoner suicide is about 5%
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34494529]you're just a hate filled little cisgender kid aren't you
if you don't think 1.6% to 41% is statistically significant you're wrong
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
the rate of prisoner suicide is about 5%[/QUOTE]
It is significant, but it's not a reason to treat every transgenders ever like living gods and grant them everything they want in fear that they might consider killing themselves.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;34494632]It is significant, but it's not a reason to treat every transgenders ever like living gods and grant them everything they want in fear that they might consider killing themselves.[/QUOTE]
How is affording them dignity treating them like "living gods"?
Why does it hurt you so much to think that transgendered people may not have to live in misery after all
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