wait anyway the treatment for suicidal patients is still therapy
or antidepressants
i still see no reason the prison should pay for a sex change
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34494732]wait anyway the treatment for suicidal patients is still therapy
or antidepressants
i still see no reason the prison should pay for a sex change[/QUOTE]
Because if a medical condition has multiple methods of treatment someone should be able to choose which one they go through with, so if someone with GID wants a sex change then they should be able to get one. And if they want therapy, they should be able to get that. If both, both.
And since they're in custody of the state at the time then the state should foot the bill.
Frankly [i]nobody[/i] should have to pay for medical treatment but one step at a time.
this isn't a great analogy, but the state's not going to pay for some herbal treatment for cancer, they are going to pay for the doctor-recommended treatment of chemotherapy
and they will pay for the doctor-recommended treatment of therapy in the case of GID
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34494645]How is affording them dignity treating them like "living gods"?
Why does it hurt you so much to think that transgendered people may not have to live in misery after all[/QUOTE]
How about THAT PERSON IS A PRISONER ?
If you are a prisoner it means you broke the rules of the society you are living in. You still have rights but you certainly are not exactly in the right position to ask for an expensive surgery when you already got hormone therapy.
Now if you are talking about transgenders in general, then there is no reason THEY should get free sex change, but the guy who has cancer right over here should just pay shit out of his pocket to get it cured or at least improved. The matter isn't about giving transgenders free surgery, it's about creating an efficient country-scaled social health care system that give sex change operations for free or paid for the most part by the state, if the concerned transgender meets the requirements for such a free surgery (aka if not enough money on their own, depressed state, suicidal tendencies, etc). And even in that case, the "they might kill themselves if they don't get that surgery" is still a shit argument because it's just that gender identification disorder or whatever you call it is an actual psychological issue that should be fixed just like any other psychological issue regardless of what it could cause.
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34494837]this isn't a great analogy, but the state's not going to pay for some herbal treatment for cancer, they are going to pay for the doctor-recommended treatment of chemotherapy
and they will pay for the doctor-recommended treatment of therapy in the case of GID[/QUOTE]
some cancer patients won't benefit from chemotherapy so everyone, even prisoners, deserve a second opinion (chemo and snake oil aren't the only two options, you know)
If a psychiatrist deemed that a prisoner with GID would benefit more from a sex change than therapy alone, would you support making the state pay for it in that case
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;34494843]
Now if you are talking about transgenders in general, then there is no reason THEY should get free sex change, but the guy who has cancer right over here should just pay shit out of his pocket to get it cured or at least improved.[/QUOTE]
Neither should pay because neither chose their condition
I'm going to ignore your BUT THEY'RE A PRISONER spiel because I'll just start yelling again
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34494865]some cancer patients won't benefit from chemotherapy so everyone, even prisoners, deserve a second opinion (chemo and snake oil aren't the only two options, you know)
If a psychiatrist deemed that a prisoner with GID would benefit more from a sex change than therapy alone, would you support making the state pay for it in that case
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
Neither should pay because neither chose their condition
I'm going to ignore your BUT THEY'RE A PRISONER spiel because I'll just start yelling again[/QUOTE]
By the way the difference between cancer and GID is that cancer WILL kill you if nothing is done about it, GID won't. That person can wait her ass out of prison then try to get that surgery, instead of getting in prison and using state responsibility to have a sex change for free.
Also if she actually gets what she wants I bet your ass other transgenders will get in prison as well to get sex change surgery for free as well.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;34494921]By the way the difference between cancer and GID is that cancer WILL kill you if nothing is done about it, GID won't. That person can wait her ass out of prison then try to get that surgery, instead of getting in prison and using state responsibility to have a sex change for free.
Also if she actually gets what she wants I bet your ass other transgenders will get in prison as well to get sex change surgery for free as well.[/QUOTE]
I'd prefer death to the plethora of psychological issues that can arise if GID isn't properly dealt with
I'll take cancer any day of the week
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34494934]I'd prefer death to the plethora of psychological issues that can arise if GID isn't properly dealt with
I'll take cancer any day of the week[/QUOTE]
Well in that case how about you don't get in prison so you don't have to deal with all those psychological issues and can get a sex change surgery as soon as possible instead of waiting to get out ?
I did some more research about her case, turns out:
[quote]courts have ruled that inmates are guaranteed only minimum care, not preferred therapies.[/quote]
she also responded to an asshole guard calling her "he" by screaming at him and then attempting to cut off her penis
and she threatened that if she doesn't get this operation, she will continue to try to castrate herself
plus, she wants to be the first inmate to have the state pay for a sex change
honestly it sounds like she isn't trying to accept her therapy as treatment while pushing for more treatment (like i think she should be doing), she's threatening to hurt herself if she can't get the optimal treatment. she sounds like she wants it as a significant step towards transgendered rights, not as treatment for her own condition. If she wanted treatment for her own condition, she wouldn't outright reject the therapy she's been given so far
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;34494967]Well in that case how about you don't get in prison so you don't have to deal with all those psychological issues and can get a sex change surgery as soon as possible instead of waiting to get out ?[/QUOTE]
Or maybe the psychological issues were a factor in why she's in prison? We don't know. It's not like she chose to be in prison
[quote]honestly it sounds like she isn't trying to accept her therapy as treatment while pushing for more treatment (like i think she should be doing), she's threatening to hurt herself if she can't get the optimal treatment. [b]she sounds like she wants it as a significant step towards transgendered rights[/b], not as treatment for her own condition. If she wanted treatment for her own condition, she wouldn't outright reject the therapy she's been given so far[/quote]
What's wrong with that?
If she succeeds not only will she get treatment but countless others will as well
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;34494632]It is significant, but it's not a reason to treat every transgenders ever like living gods and grant them everything they want in fear that they might consider killing themselves.[/QUOTE]
Yes, because providing medical care is treating them like living gods.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34495004]
What's wrong with that?
If she succeeds not only will she get treatment but countless others will as well[/QUOTE]
maybe the fact that taxpayers money should be treating people for their medical illnesses, not setting stepping stones for future equality
[QUOTE=Bones85;34495009]Yes, because providing medical care is treating them like living gods.[/QUOTE]
Giving in to a lunatic inmate threatening the life of others and acting like a total asshole is.
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34495022]maybe the fact that taxpayers money should be [b]treating people for their medical illnesses[/b][/QUOTE]
The surgery should be done then.
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;34495050]Giving in to a lunatic inmate threatening the life of others and acting like a total asshole is.[/QUOTE]
Not even going to bother with your characterization of her, but she's in prison, and thus the state has an obligation to provide medical care. Being a "total asshole" is irrelevant to their medical needs.
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34495022]maybe the fact that taxpayers money should be treating people for their medical illnesses, not setting stepping stones for future equality[/QUOTE]
Everyone should be able to get the surgery then
[QUOTE=Bones85;34495070]The surgery should be done then.
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
Not even going to bother with your characterization of her, but she's in prison, and thus the state has an obligation to provide medical care. Being a "total asshole" is irrelevant to their medical needs.[/QUOTE]
She already got medical care, hence the hormone therapy part. Now she's just getting crazy at people calling her "he" and suing the state to get more, while supporting her lawsuit with threats of cutting off her dick.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;34495235]She already got medical care, hence the hormone therapy part. Now she's just getting crazy at people calling her "he" and suing the state to get more, while supporting her lawsuit with threats of cutting off her dick.[/QUOTE]
Well she still obviously has GID so it's almost as if there needs to be further treatment or something
You can't just come along and say "nope you're cured good enough, deal with it"
There are more important medical issues facing prisoners right now, if she wants the surgery, and this many people agree she should have it, let them/her pay for it. The government pays for basic and emergency health care. If she has survived this long, she can wait until she is out/the money is raised by others.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34495282]Well she still obviously has GID so it's almost as if there needs to be further treatment or something
You can't just come along and say "nope you're cured good enough, deal with it"[/QUOTE]
More like "we paid enough now you wait to get out and you pay for that stuff yourself"
im going to do a lot of speculation here, so feel free to disregard this post
I couldn't find too much about her sentence, but I do know she was convicted for 70 years for stealing and drugs, so she either got terribly unlucky, or she really did some pretty heavy crimes
she completely flips out because a guard made a mean comment to her. Now, keep in mind she's been in prison for a few years before this, and I'm pretty sure as a prisoner you get relatively used to assholes being around you and saying mean things to you. if you flip out at being called a "he", that says something.
and now she's basically rejecting the treatment that was given to her and threatening to cut her dick off
it sounds like she's got a [i]lot[/i] more problem than just GID
and even if she did JUST have GID, I dont think this is really the best way to solve it
think about someone who has a phobia of feet or something. if they asked a doctor to cut off their feet, no doctor would say that's a good thing to do.
now, I don't think sex changes really compare to that, and if you have the money and a doctor, I think you should definitely get a sex change if you think it's right.
but I don't think a sex change is a necessary step in treatment.
Wait so she's in prison for 70 years ?
I'm gonna speculate too and say she [I]might[/I] try to get a sex change and be transfered in a female prison in hope that it's a less terrible place to stay in, or try to flat-out get out of prison period.
We've seen weirder shit happen with prisoners and sex change, like that one russian guy who got a sex change operation to win at the olympic games as a woman with the performance of a man.
and here's another analogy I thought of after hearing that her own doctors said that they thought she was getting sufficient treatment:
I dont want sympathy here, and I know this is a much smaller matter than GID, but I have ulcerative colitis, and recently its been acting up pretty badly. I was just at my doctor today and so far I've been in and out of the bathroom about every 2 hours
so I asked the doctor if I could go on oral steroids to help bring the flair down, but he said he didn't think it was a good idea. now, I am a free, relatively wealthy, health-insured person, and I could have simply told him "no, I want the prednisone" and he would have obliged
but I [i]still[/i] chose to go with his recommended treatment.
so as a hypothetical prisoner, I [i]definitely[/i] think it's better to go with what the doctors recommend, rather than what you feel you need.
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34495282]Well she still obviously has GID so it's almost as if there needs to be further treatment or something
You can't just come along and say "nope you're cured good enough, deal with it"[/QUOTE]
therapy takes years and years, and it works most effectively if the patient is willing to be open about it
she clearly isn't open about it.
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
also just throwing this out there, there are quite a few people that don't even think the state should pay for necessary organ transplants for prisoners, let alone a sex change
I think there are more important medical cases that could be payed for with state money
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
also about that suicide rate thing, I can't actually find very many sources that agree on a specific number
and most of them say the rate is the highest among [i]untreated[/i] GID patients, not ones who are going through therapy
plus I found this interesting article, but I don't know how reliable it is
[url]http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/morbid.htm[/url]
they did cite their sources though!
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34495306]im going to do a lot of speculation here, so feel free to disregard this post
I couldn't find too much about her sentence, but I do know she was convicted for 70 years for stealing and drugs, so she either got terribly unlucky, or she really did some pretty heavy crimes
she completely flips out because a guard made a mean comment to her. Now, keep in mind she's been in prison for a few years before this, and I'm pretty sure as a prisoner you get relatively used to assholes being around you and saying mean things to you. if you flip out at being called a "he", that says something.
and now she's basically rejecting the treatment that was given to her and threatening to cut her dick off
[b]it sounds like she's got a [i]lot[/i] more problem than just GID[/b]
and even if she did JUST have GID, I dont think this is really the best way to solve it
think about someone who has a phobia of feet or something. if they asked a doctor to cut off their feet, no doctor would say that's a good thing to do.
now, I don't think sex changes really compare to that, and if you have the money and a doctor, I think you should definitely get a sex change if you think it's right.
but I don't think a sex change is a necessary step in treatment.[/QUOTE]
GID quite often causes depression, self-harm, and all the other things that you'd expect to go along with those
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34495348]
also just throwing this out there, there are quite a few people that don't even think the state should pay for necessary organ transplants for prisoners, let alone a sex change[/QUOTE]
there are some people who think we should shoot everyone who breaks the law, we don't need to listen
I'm not saying she has depression, I'm saying she's much more unstable than that
breaking the law, aggressive behavior, violence, not accepting treatment
she sounds very mentally unstable
but this is all speculation, don't take it as my main argument.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;34495345]Wait so she's in prison for 70 years ?
I'm gonna speculate too and say she [I]might[/I] try to get a sex change and be transfered in a female prison in hope that it's a less terrible place to stay in, or try to flat-out get out of prison period.
We've seen weirder shit happen with prisoners and sex change, like that one russian guy who got a sex change operation to win at the olympic games as a woman with the performance of a man.[/QUOTE]
Female prisons are often worse, I have visited both the male prison was not great but the female prison was insane.
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34495348]
plus I found this interesting article, but I don't know how reliable it is
[url]http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/morbid.htm[/url]
they did cite their sources though![/QUOTE]
my number came from a random sample of 6540 people from all 50 states, and the number was the rate of attempted suicides, not successful ones (since dead people can't take surveys)
[QUOTE=imptastick;34495454]Female prisons are often worse, I have visited both the male prison was not great but the female prison was insane.[/QUOTE]
Probably but she might not know about it.
I found some articles claiming it was over 50%
some claimed 31% (weird that yours was 41%)
some claimed lower, like 15%
others claimed even lower, like under 1% (still a lot higher than the average national rate)
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34495490]I found some articles claiming it was over 50%
some claimed 31% (weird that yours was 41%)
some claimed lower, like 15%
others claimed even lower, like under 1% (still a lot higher than the average national rate)[/QUOTE]
It's totally unrelevant because it's a stat based over the testimony of a small number of people, instead of the actual number of people who actually killed themselves and happened to be transgender. Depending on who you pick you might get a high number or a smaller one, some might lie, etc.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;34495548]It's totally unrelevant because it's a stat based over the testimony of a small number of people, instead of the actual number of people who actually killed themselves and happened to be transgender. Depending on who you pick you might get a high number or a smaller one, some might lie, etc.[/QUOTE]
do you know how statistics work
6,000-something is way more than enough for a statistically significant sample
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