[QUOTE=Kyle902;51084495]Im not saying you should be doing nothing. I'm saying you dont have the infrastructure to do what you're currently doing without making the problem worse in the future.[/QUOTE]
We have to start somewhere. And its not like the police went and arrested all of them
, they turned themselves in since the crackdown on drugs. Which in itself you can interpret on your own if its a good or bad thing.
[QUOTE=Zekkei;51084530]We have to start somewhere. And its not like the police went and arrested all of them
, they turned themselves in since the crackdown on drugs. Which in itself you can interpret on your own if its a good or bad thing.[/QUOTE]
Where are you getting your information?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;51084556]Where are you getting your information?[/QUOTE]
I do not want to link local news outlets here. This is the most recent global news site i can find with numbers of people who surrendered. [URL="http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/700000-drug-pushers-surrender-philippines-duterte-says-i-cant-kill-them-all-because-report-1581998"]http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/700000-drug-pushers-surrender-philippines-duterte-says-i-cant-kill-them-all-because-report-1581998[/URL]
[QUOTE=_Axel;51084144]I think the US have already shown time and again that waging a "war" on drugs doesn't achieve anything. Why do you think taking it up to absurd levels will be any different?
Maybe, I don't know, looking into the reasons why people end up taking drugs in the first place and solving the underlying issues (which coincidentally would reduce the demand for them and thus the profitability and influence of drug dealers) would be more efficient than basically making murder legal?[/QUOTE]
It kind of works though, I mean if everyone's dead no one will be alive to take drugs right? :hammered:
[QUOTE=Zekkei;51084606]I do not want to link local news outlets here. This is the most recent global news site i can find with numbers of people who surrendered. [URL="http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/700000-drug-pushers-surrender-philippines-duterte-says-i-cant-kill-them-all-because-report-1581998"]http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/700000-drug-pushers-surrender-philippines-duterte-says-i-cant-kill-them-all-because-report-1581998[/URL][/QUOTE]
So you now have nearly a million people added to your already shitty prison system. This wont end badly at all. Furthermore that article also shows that thousands are being killed by both the police and vigilantes without any form of due process. There is no justification for the way the filipino drug war is being carried out.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;51084637]So you now have nearly a million people added to your already shitty prison system. This wont end badly at all. Furthermore that article also shows that thousands are being killed by both the police and vigilantes without any form of due process. There is no justification for the way the filipino drug war is being carried out.[/QUOTE] hundreds of thousands turned themselves in. People want change. Even the ones who are users and in the drug business. this is just the surface of whats really happening here. And im not going to explain every point since you insist that this "war on drugs" will not work. But what if it did? What if under dutertes administration corruption stops, funds get used properly and more prisons, rehabilitation facilities, schools, etc are built? You have to understand that duterte is having a hard time cleaning up the clusterfuck left by previous administration and the previous way of thinking of the filipinos. There is no "clean" solution to this i am telling you.
[QUOTE=Zekkei;51084710]hundreds of thousands turned themselves in. People want change. Even the ones who are users and in the drug business. this is just the surface of whats really happening here. And im not going to explain every point since you insist that this "war on drugs" will not work. But what if it did? What if under dutertes administration corruption stops, funds get used properly and more prisons, rehabilitation facilities, schools, etc are built? You have to understand that duterte is having a hard time cleaning up the clusterfuck left by previous administration and the previous way of thinking of the filipinos. There is no "clean" solution to this i am telling you.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=_Axel;51084290]Why do you expect total chaos to eventually result in a neat, drug and crime-free equilibrium?[/QUOTE]
Seriously, how the fuck do you restore order by basically allowing everyone to ignore the law?
There are several orders of magnitude between a clean solution and this. To think that such a method would eventually "sort itself out" is just wishful thinking.
I think Duterte is crazy overall, but ultimately I have to boil it down to practical reasons. The explicit "Kill them all and let god sort then out." mentality is the big issue, I dont want to see innocent civilians or those who are only users, or just a small time local dealer to make ends meet getting killed. The guiltless and the victims of their circumstances deserve no punishment, only help. Those who are perpetuating it out of their own selfish interest, with disregard for society and those in it, are the ones who deserve punishment. And ultimately, on that specific group, I can't say the notion of then being killed bothers me, especially if they are given an out the same as users and the small time dealers. I can understand the extreme response, it's a matter of societal physics. An extreme problem demanding an extreme response to alter it's course, or to halt or even reverse it. But the tremendous potential for innocent or savable life to be lost is wherein I take issue. As far as the stigma against people after rehabilitation goes, that is a matter of propaganda. You have to make a concerted push to shift the public perception of post-rehabilitation users and pushers so they don't feel that pressure. Make them sympathetic, make them heroic, these kinds of things. Have programs to reintegrate them in to society with jobs if you can. In so far as the cost of rehabilitation, that is unavoidable. Even if you take the absolute humanitarian approach and convince them all to surrender all the way to the leader of these organizations this will still remain an issue, and it's ultimately one they will have to deal with if the problem is to be resolved. There is no easy solution to these problems.
It remains to be seen if this is actually a solution on any level. That is something that unfortunately can only be determined after it has all played out. Morals/Ethics aside I'm interested in seeing the results that come from this as a test of the method. Taking morals/ethics in to account of course the danger to innocents and savable lives is atrocious.
[QUOTE=_Axel;51084754]Seriously, how the fuck do you restore order by basically allowing everyone to ignore the law?
There are several orders of magnitude between a clean solution and this. To think that such a method would eventually "sort itself out" is just wishful thinking.[/QUOTE]
Total chaos? I think you have exaggerated on whats happening here a bit too much. People actually feel safer on the streets now.
[QUOTE=Zekkei;51084710]hundreds of thousands turned themselves in. People want change. Even the ones who are users and in the drug business. this is just the surface of whats really happening here. And im not going to explain every point since you insist that this "war on drugs" will not work. But what if it did? What if under dutertes administration corruption stops, funds get used properly and more prisons, rehabilitation facilities, schools, etc are built? You have to understand that duterte is having a hard time cleaning up the clusterfuck left by previous administration and the previous way of thinking of the filipinos. There is no "clean" solution to this i am telling you.[/QUOTE]
you think they turned themselves in out of the goodness of their heart, not because they're afraid of being killed?
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51085003]you think they turned themselves in out of the goodness of their heart, not because they're afraid of being killed?[/QUOTE]
As a matter of results the outcome is the same, even if the input was different.
I had a nice discussion about Duterte with a Filipino friend. I was originally against Duterte, but he was able to explain to me how and why he has taken the stance that he has. I'd recommend taking the time to put in additional research into the matter and form your own opinion based on that instead of just taking a stance after reading a few negative headlines.
His methods and demeanor are crude, but there's a reason for it.
[QUOTE=Sanjuaro;51085783]His methods and demeanor are crude, but there's a reason for it.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't justify the extrajudicial killings and his fucking ludicrous idea of what international relations are. Allowing your citizens to kill anybody they personally suspect of being a drug dealer or user is just begging to abuse by the smarter drug lords, and easily open for abuse by civilians with a chip on their shoulder.
[QUOTE=Zekkei;51084782]People actually feel safer on the streets now.[/QUOTE]
[citation needed]
[QUOTE=Zekkei;51084782]People actually feel safer on the streets now.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I'm sure the people who had their relatives killed for no valid reason share the same sentiment.
[QUOTE=_Axel;51086270]Yeah I'm sure the people who had their relatives killed for no valid reason share the same sentiment.[/QUOTE]
well people probably have their relatives killed for no valid reason back before too tbh, just not by death squad but drug lords.
while this doesn't seem to be a significant change right now, let's see how this'll turn out as it seems quite a lot of Filipinos support this cause
[QUOTE=_Axel;51084290]...Or a few drugs lords will seize the opportunity to take out their competition and become even more powerful?
How do you expect making the whole country into a free-for-all will solve anything? Who's gonna take out the big fishes, untrained civilians? Against people who've been playing that game forever?
Literally all this does is increase the death rate among low-lever dealers, while allowing anyone to kill whoever they want by sprinkling a few grams of coke on the corpse after the deed.
Why do you expect total chaos to eventually result in a neat, drug and crime-free equilibrium?[/QUOTE]
There is not total chaos. The country is fine as always. Just with 3000 extra criminal deaths and 30k more drug users/dealers in rehab or prison.
Im going there again in 1 month, so I do keep close eyes on the situation.
The only real way to curb drugs is to curb demand. If there is demand some enterprising individual will always find a way to satisfy it.
Scare tactics like these are a great way to facilitate reduced demand. Either due to drug users fearing for their lives or the massive price hikes involved with a lack of dealers and extra precautions from said dealers.
You can compare them to the scare tactics the Nazi's used or the North Koreans still use today. Where any and all forms of disobedience can result in an immediate verdict and execution being carried out by a military officer. Cruel, but it works.
So in my opinion, it might just work. Whether its worth the cost is a wholly different question. But apparently the PH people think it is worth it as he won the election by a landslide. They are the only ones that can decide if this is worth it or not.
Western nations should shut up, as it doesnt hurt us in any way.
[editline]22nd September 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kyle902;51084445]Their hypocrisy is irrelevant to your handling of the problem. Calling everyone else hypocrites for not helping is in essense a shitty attempt at pinning your problems on people who are completely irrelevant to the situation.
How exactly are the phillipines gonna build and staff the hundreds of rehab centers its gonna take to house all these people? What about those who aren't addicts? Are you gonna shove all of them in your prisons that are so overcrowded that they're arguably human rights violations? Furthermore the intense social stigma against drug users in the phillipines will likely mean that a good portion of ex-rehabbers are gonna go straight back to drugs.[/QUOTE]
Like this:
[url]http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2015/10/life-philippines-prison-walls-151007074700822.html[/url]
You can even visit them as a tourist. The criminals can go and live there after having served 2/3 of their sentence. Once there they get a a real job, house and can invite their spouse and kids to live there as well. Living there gives them a solid base framework for their lives are most actually happy to keep living there after their sentence.
[QUOTE=_Axel;51086270]Yeah I'm sure the people who had their relatives killed for no valid reason share the same sentiment.[/QUOTE]
Would it be any different then watching a family member gambling away their life on methamphetamine, heroin, or other hard drugs?
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;51088107]Would it be any different then watching a family member gambling away their life on methamphetamine, heroin, or other hard drugs?[/QUOTE]
This is assuming that all those killed were actually drug pushers. Since there is no due process we have no way of knowing.
That's pretty much the entire reason this cleanse doesn't sit well with the rest of the world.
I sure as shit hope that the last move our country makes as an EU member state is to ram that sword of justice atop the Old Bailey so far up Duterte's arse that he's coughing up brasso for the next 12 years.
Fuck you Duterte, I hope your population turns on you when they see you for the criminally insane sack of shit you are.
[QUOTE=Zekkei;51084782]Total chaos? I think you have exaggerated on whats happening here a bit too much. People actually feel safer on the streets now.[/QUOTE]
I really doubt that the "drug pushers" feel any safer on the street now that the president of their country has given [i]literally anyone[/i] free reign to murder them in cold blood with no trial.
"Drug pushers" are humans, too, and even though they've committed a crime, they deserve a trial like literally anyone else. Duterte is breaking international humanitarian law. I don't care if his "crude" solution is "working," there is [I]no excuse[/I] for outright calling for the open murder of your own civilians through vigilante justice.
I understand that the drug trade is a problem in the Philippines and I recognize that people want change - but Duterte's a fucking vile idiot of a human being with the mannerisms of a twelve-year-old and the professional political talent of a coked-out rhino. His solutions are contrary to human rights. He's a childish idiot who's using the influence of the state to get thousands of people killed.
[editline]22nd September 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;51088107]Would it be any different then watching a family member gambling away their life on methamphetamine, heroin, or other hard drugs?[/QUOTE]
Would you be okay with a random stranger bursting into your home and murdering one of your family members under the [i]suspicion[/i] that they were pushing drugs? No, you fucking wouldn't - Duterte's policies [i]entirely nullify the concept of a fair trial by your peers[/i]. That is unjustifiable.
If Duterte has enough money to construct new "rehabilitation facilities" (prisons) for literal millions of drug addicts, he could [i]hire some fucking judges before calling for mob justice to execute them[/i].
i can imagine this child of a "leader" being an incredible fucking hypocrite, bathing in a mountain of coke even as of now
The Filipino government should have opened rehab centers and other restorative efforts to reduce drug abuse - wean the users off, the dealers won't have anyone to sell to. Instead, Duterte's so bent on punitive killings he's intoxicated by the thought.
Relevant
[hd]https://youtu.be/wYLelZYj0Wc[/hd]
[editline]24th September 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sanjuaro;51085783]I had a nice discussion about Duterte with a Filipino friend. I was originally against Duterte, but he was able to explain to me how and why he has taken the stance that he has. I'd recommend taking the time to put in additional research into the matter and form your own opinion based on that instead of just taking a stance after reading a few negative headlines.
His methods and demeanor are crude, but there's a reason for it.[/QUOTE]
But almost all of FP has already made up their mind. They hate Duterte, no matter what.
I came in thinking Duterte's awful because I've only heard and read negative headlines about him, but people like zekkei really have convinced me otherwise. It definitely seems like what's being portrayed in the media is not fully accurate (shocking!), and the fact that the people living in the Philippines take a difference stance than everyone else on FP alone says something about the entire situation. I'm all for human rights and blah blah blah but it really does seem like people talking about the issue but not living in the Philippines are missing something huge in comparison to the people actually living there. A lot of things can be said but I think people have to understand that it's really more than what you see from the outside.
[QUOTE=Saturn V;51089485]i can imagine this child of a "leader" being an incredible fucking hypocrite, bathing in a mountain of coke even as of now[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;51089505]The Filipino government should have opened rehab centers and other restorative efforts to reduce drug abuse - wean the users off, the dealers won't have anyone to sell to. Instead, Duterte's so bent on punitive killings he's intoxicated by the thought.[/QUOTE]
Posts like these just make me question where you guys get these ideas and these images of Duterte. Like obviously he loves jacking off to punitive killings while he sits on a pile of coke-- this is just ridiculous and I don't understand why you think saying these things will make opinions opposing Duterte seem the slightest bit more rational/reasonable.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;51089395]I really doubt that the "drug pushers" feel any safer on the street now that the president of their country has given [i]literally anyone[/i] free reign to murder them in cold blood with no trial.[/QUOTE]
I also just wanted to bring this up which ties into the entire point of my post- you're trying to tell a resident of the Philippines that his analysis of the situation in the Philippines itself is wrong- from an outside perspective based on "high doubt".
I haven't been following news on Duterte, I've just been hearing snippets admittedly so you can criticize me on a lack of knowledge, but it really seems to me that people who aren't living in the Philippines are missing a lot here
[QUOTE=t h e;51097823]I came in thinking Duterte's awful because I've only heard and read negative headlines about him, but people like zekkei really have convinced me otherwise. It definitely seems like what's being portrayed in the media is not fully accurate (shocking!), and the fact that the people living in the Philippines take a difference stance than everyone else on FP alone says something about the entire situation. I'm all for human rights and blah blah blah but it really does seem like people talking about the issue but not living in the Philippines are missing something huge in comparison to the people actually living there. A lot of things can be said but I think people have to understand that it's really more than what you see from the outside.
Posts like these just make me question where you guys get these ideas and these images of Duterte. Like obviously he loves jacking off to punitive killings while he sits on a pile of coke-- this is just ridiculous and I don't understand why you think saying these things will make opinions opposing Duterte seem the slightest bit more rational/reasonable.
I also just wanted to bring this up which ties into the entire point of my post- you're trying to tell a resident of the Philippines that his analysis of the situation in the Philippines itself is wrong- from an outside perspective based on "high doubt".
I haven't been following news on Duterte, I've just been hearing snippets admittedly so you can criticize me on a lack of knowledge, but it really seems to me that people who aren't living in the Philippines are missing a lot here[/QUOTE]
I've made a lenghty post about why Duterte is definitely the best thing that's happened to the Philippines in a while, but I was labeled as a "fascist shill". :/
[QUOTE=t h e;51097823]
I also just wanted to bring this up which ties into the entire point of my post- you're trying to tell a resident of the Philippines that his analysis of the situation in the Philippines itself is wrong- from an outside perspective based on "high doubt".
I haven't been following news on Duterte, I've just been hearing snippets admittedly so you can criticize me on a lack of knowledge, but it really seems to me that people who aren't living in the Philippines are missing a lot here[/QUOTE]
I don't want to Go all Godwin here, but do you not think there were a lot of Germans in the late30s/early 40s that spoke highly of the National Socialist party?
I personally don't even like the death penalty but I'll concede the death penalty under extraordinary circumstances. But deputising basically a whole country and giving them the go-ahead to kill whoever they want - provided it can be fudged to look like they were involved in the drug trade - has never ended well anywhere. Maybe people are looking upon it positively right now, but it's early days. The full extremity of this decision has yet to rear its head
[editline]24th September 2016[/editline]
Take the Indonesian 'Genocide' where they were supposedly fighting off communist terrorists. This devolved into killing those even accused of being associated with the communists with no evidence. Killing whole families and burning down houses. It only takes a few months for this to spiral out of control.
Honestly the biggest problem with this is that it establishes a precedent where the filipino government can ignore due process so long as they have popular support.
I love Duterte. He got backbone. Probably because he knew nobody would invade Philippine.
Now if only Philippine has some oil...
If people actually knows Philippine drug situations first hand outside of Western media limited political-correctness, this whole thing probably made more sense to them.
[QUOTE=hakimhakim;51098847]I love Duterte. He got backbone. Probably because he knew nobody would invade Philippine.
Now if only Philippine has some oil...
If people actually knows Philippine drug situations first hand outside of Western media limited political-correctness, this whole thing probably made more sense to them.[/QUOTE]
Duterte's a populist idiot. He's digging himself and the country a hole that they might not be able to get themselves out of. Isolationism is not an option in an era of globalism, and he's going to have no one to support him if he keeps this shit up.
Also, "Western media limited political-correctness"? You do know the US exists right next-door to the country with one of the most horrifying and powerful drug cartels in the world? You do know that's one of the biggest domestic issues that coincides with immigration in the US, right? Come on now.
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