[QUOTE=Karishnikova;46431440]It's not creating affordable healthcare. It's jacking up the price of treatments because now that more people have healthcare, pharmaceutical companies and hospitals are jacking up their prices to milk more out of the insurance companies, who in turn are jacking up premiums and co-pays and deductibles.
Before Obamacare came out, I was able to find good Dental insurance for less than $30/mo that actually covered shit and had a decent deductible and co-pay. Now? Well fuck me in the ass, if I want to pay less than $50/mo for dental I'm getting a $10,000 deductible, $50 copay, and I only get ONE tooth extraction in my entire lifetime (including non-impacted wisdom teeth) and ONE impacted wisdom tooth extraction in my entire lifetime. Last I checked I have 4 wisdom teeth.
It's also making it hard to get quality care. My mother has been sick as a dog with god knows WHAT for almost a year and getting any sort of treatment paid for by her insurance company is like pulling teeth from a rabid dog. It takes them a month or more to approve an MRI or a cat-scan when the doctors say they need it to diagnose something, and it doesn't cover everything as well. Something she was told would be 100% covered ended up costing her $1500 and no one told her about it until she got a bill from the hospital with 15 days left to start a payment arrangement.[/QUOTE]
I used to have insurance through the company I work for, paid for by the company. Then that company (Lovelace) dropped our company for some bizarre reason, and I guess the owner/my boss had to really haggle and fight with them for them to cover us again, but this time we have two options:
1) We (the employees) pay nothing, and it's a $4,000 deductible (can't afford it, not the deductible), or
2) We pay $120 a month towards it plus what the company pays in for us, and it's a $1,000 deductible (can't afford that either).
No matter what any system that the government implements to benefit the general public will be abused somehow. People are greedy as fuck, and no matter what if a plan comes out that is going to benefit them someone is going to abuse it, be it in this case the insurance providers, or in the case of food stamps the receivers. It is going to be abused, that won't change unfortunately.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;46430182]For fuck's sake.
[B]Republicans if you seriously undo this you are actually going to have wasted the entirety of Obama's presidency, eight years of American prosperity, over the fact that a black Democrat got elected and you didn't.[/B]
Especially when it was [B]Romney's fucking idea to start with[/B].[/QUOTE]
Maybe Obama's presidency [I]was [/I]nothing but a waste?
Like, besides the healthcare bill (which proved to be a huge fuck-up that, like many congressmen suggested, should have had the best bits carved out and the rest dumped) all I can really remember about his presidency was Benghazi, electing some random girl as a Supreme Court Justice and fucking over Libya by helping the rebels there.
[QUOTE=Jon27;46431334]This is what utterly befuddles me about many Republican supporters down there. They moan and bitch and whine about Obama's ideas for affordable healthcare. Then, when someone falls ill and can't afford healthcare, they bitch that it's Obama's fault. What the flying fuck is up with the way some American voters think? Are they really just that thick, or that convinced that everything is the [I]other guy[/I]'s fault? If someone could explain this to me, I'd be grateful. I mean, I thought UKIP voters were bad for this shit but the more I think about this the more mad I get at these people.[/QUOTE]
Yes, they are that thick. We do a terrible job educating our public, and as a result they buy in to scare tactics and culture issues that con them into voting for a ruthlessly pro-rich, pro-corporate agenda that makes their lives worse at every turn. Republicans don't talk about economics, they talk about Obama hating America and wanting to euthenize their grandparents and get court orders making them abort their children. They talk about Christians being persecuted by arrogant know-it-all East Coast college professors and lawyers. They talk about Obongo coming to take their guns, not minimum wage.
Republican media keeps old white voters in a perpetual state of outrage and hatred over trumped-up cultural issues while their elected officials pass laws that rob them blind. It's sickening, especially at the state level. On the upside, you do get wonderfully ironic moments like Medicare recipients holding signs that say "Keep Your Government Hands Off My Healthcare". Government can't solve anything...except paying to keep you alive and voting.
[QUOTE=Karishnikova;46433555]Not even what I said, but good job trying to put words in my mouth.
What I was implying is that the notion that you have to work multiple jobs to make ends meet is bullshit. You don't. There are plenty of higher paying jobs out there, even for people without marketable skills.[/quote]
I'm certain you've toured the country and have seen the glorious job market in these small Eastern New Mexico towns then. If you're not an RN, don't have a CDL, or didn't luck out and get a job on at the cheese plant (they only need so many people) then there aren't very many options other than retail/fast food. The job market is VERY SLOWLY GROWING around here, but not enough to bring the majority out of the poverty line. Fuck, I went to a trade school for HVAC, graduated top of my class, got on with one of the most reputable companies in town, and I still feel like I can barely afford to drive back and forth to work, even after they gave me a raise to $11/hour.
[quote]I know for a fact that AT&T, Verizon, and Sprint sales reps (in actual stores) get paid really well and they don't require experience to start.[/quote]
Sales isn't for everyone. I've had several sales jobs in the past and they always pressure you into selling people extra shit they don't need/want.
[quote]Not a people person? Construction is always looking for work and they pay pretty well![/quote]
Around here the contractors always want at least 2 years experience. Good luck getting experience when no one will hire you because "you have no experience". In fact, most places here demand experience, even for janitorial positions, and this is just a small town of <50K people. It's even worse in the smaller towns (there's tons of villages scattered around with <5K people).
[QUOTE=patq911;46433250]He has no name recognition because you already gave up on him. Tell everyone about him.[/QUOTE]
I haven given hope on him. I like the guy a lot and if I were to enter politics, I'd model it after him. However, the problem is that he faces an insane uphill battle not only to get the democratic nomination, but to campaign to win the whitehouse.
We as a country have an issue with not voting. Young voters arent voting and the poor arent voting. Those who do vote have been voting for a long time already. Trying to get an independent who, for lack of a better term, is an anomaly in congress into the whitehouse is a daunting task.
[editline]7th November 2014[/editline]
A recent poll says that only 5% of caucus voters would endorse Sanders. Thats the lowest of all the candidates. Clinton has the top with like just over 50%
I'm never quite sure if people who say that people are for the stuff in Obamacare, but not the entire bill are just trying to mislead their viewers or if they are actually that diluted.
The bill is over 1000 pages long. You can be for four or five things in the bill and still not like it at it's entirety.
The entire US political system is so incredibly undemocratic it's almost depressing.
You get to choose between two parties that are both full of complete shits, your average election choices are basically plague vs cholera, and the indirect voting system results in stupid situations that should never happen in a democracy.
Ganerumo, you get to choose between many different parties. It's just that typically if you don't vote for A or B your vote doesn't mean jack shit.
A good example is Alaska, though. They voted in an Independent candidate for governor this year.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;46433992]plague vs cholera[/QUOTE]
In which most people take the third option: dont vote because no one poison is less deadly than the others.
[QUOTE=Karishnikova;46432915]Nothing they tried to "put down" would have prevented the shit that happened from happening again.
They don't want to address the underlying issue, which is a lack of education and mental healthcare availability. Instead they think knee-jerk reactions and banning anything to do with it will fix the problem when it won't.
Also you've got your terminology wrong.
"The Left" are conservatives (i.e. Republicans) "The Right" are liberals. (i.e. Democrats)
And they sure as fuck showed they could and would after the Boston Bombing
[editline]7th November 2014[/editline]
I feel safer in America than I would in jolly old England.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry but what the fuck
How has no one acknowledged this post
Since when are Conservative Republicans "The Left" and Liberal Democrats "The Right"? What planet is this guy posting from?
[QUOTE=Karishnikova;46432202]They think just fine, and they know what they're voting for.
A lot of them very may well want or support the things that Democrats want, but in the south, everyone is pro-2nd amendment, and I know a lot of people (myself included) who will never vote Democrat simply because their party always attacks the 2nd amendment.[/QUOTE]
Voting along party lines is always a problem. I don't look at party lines at all. I don't care if they're red or blue, GOP or Dem. I don't have a party affiliation myself. I look at a candidates own stances and what they'rel ikely to do instead.
Most people, including myself, swing from side to side depending on issue. I'm very much pro second amendment as well, I fucking love target practice and plinking. Yet I'm very much pro socialized healthcare as well. I lean heavily red when it comes to automotive and environmental issues, yet I lean strongly blue when it comes to social safety nets and the like. Nobody's [i]purely[/i] one party or the other, we're all a mix and we all swing in one way on some issues and another way on others.
[QUOTE=Karishnikova;46432392]Joes, if all you can do is point out logical fallacies, you're not contributing to the thread.[/QUOTE]
and shelling out baseless assertions is harmful to the public good. if you're so right about what you say, then it should be easy to find statistics to prove your points.
so consider it me doing a public service.
but here's me proving my point.
healthcare premiums are [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/24/wonkbook-some-very-good-news-for-obamacare/"]lower than expected[/URL] in some cases:
[QUOTE]As always, Sarah Kliff has the details. The California exchange will have 13 insurance options, and the heavy competition appears to be driving down prices. The most affordable silver-level plan is charging $276-a-month. The second-most affordable plan is charging $294. And all this is before subsidies. Someone making twice the poverty line, say, will only pay $104-a-month.
Sparer plans are even cheaper. A young person buying the cheapest "bronze"-level plan will pay $172 -- and that, again, is before any subsidies.
California is a particularly important test for Obamacare. It's not just the largest state in the nation. It's also one of the states most committed to implementing Obamacare effectively. Under Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger -- remember how that really happened? -- California was the first state to begin building its insurance exchanges. The state's outreach efforts are unparalleled. Its insurance regulators are working hard to bring in good plans and make sure they're playing fair. If California can't make the law work, perhaps no one can. But if California can make the law work, it shows that others can, too.[/QUOTE]
premium increases are modest in much of the US, and either way, that isn't the fault of the legislation itself so much as it is state compliance and the insurance industries themselves:
[IMG]http://puu.sh/cHCL8/38682e6c82.jpg[/IMG]
[url]http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118966/obamacare-premiums-2015-no-rate-shock-just-modest-increases[/url]
[QUOTE]Why the disparities? One likely factor is how diligently officials have worked on implementing the law. [B]California’s were enthusiastic about Obamacare from the get-go. They created their own marketplace for buying insurance and adopted an “active purchaser” model, which means the marketplace’s managers can bargain aggressively with carriers to get low premiums. In addition, California regulators have the authority to review and reject insurance premium increases that seem excessive.[/B] (A new measure on the ballot would give them even more power; some experts think insurers bid low this year just to undermine support for the initiative.)
[B]In Florida, by contrast, the Republicans in charge did very little to promote the law and, at times, seemed determined to undermine it.[/B] Never was this more clear than in 2013, when the legislature passed and Governor Rick Scott signed a bill that suspended state government's ability to reject excessive premium increases. Florida regulators had a reputation for vigilant oversight, so this may have been no small thing.
Another key variable is how insurers priced their plans last year—in effect, whether they underbid or overbid. [B]“I think the premium increases that we have seen have been modest though with exceptions,” says John Holahan, senior fellow at the Urban Institute. “The biggest jumps seem to be among plans that had low rates in 2014.[/B] So I expect some convergence and some changes in who ends up being the second lowest cost plan.”[/QUOTE]
[editline]7th November 2014[/editline]
and here's a helpful video to explain exactly what the ACA is
[video=youtube;wBr3fniyb4w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBr3fniyb4w[/video]
The Republicans have been waging a psychological effort since the ACA was in debate stages to trick Americans into thinking there's an alternative on the table. The strategy has always been "repeal and replace," as if it's a two-step process by nature. In truth, the Republicans could sponsor a single bill to supersede the ACA in one go, but they would rather have a clean repeal vote.
Then, once the bill has been repealed, America will expect them to follow through with the "replace" half of the plan, which they will be continuously "stalled" on until another Democratic supermajority takes office a few decades from now.
Obamacare isn't perfect, I know a lot of people who have to pay more for their health insurance than before it was put in.
[QUOTE=Karishnikova;46432915]Also you've got your terminology wrong.
"The Left" are conservatives (i.e. Republicans) "The Right" are liberals. (i.e. Democrats)[/QUOTE]
uh no this is actually completely wrong
[editline]7th November 2014[/editline]
like, fundamentally wrong enough to make me doubt you even pay attention to politics because even a cursory view completely blows that statement out of the water
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;46433746]I'm certain you've toured the country and have seen the glorious job market in these small Eastern New Mexico towns then. If you're not an RN, don't have a CDL, or didn't luck out and get a job on at the cheese plant (they only need so many people) then there aren't very many options other than retail/fast food. The job market is VERY SLOWLY GROWING around here, but not enough to bring the majority out of the poverty line. Fuck, I went to a trade school for HVAC, graduated top of my class, got on with one of the most reputable companies in town, and I still feel like I can barely afford to drive back and forth to work, even after they gave me a raise to $11/hour.
[/QUOTE]
There are some small towns in Indiana that I'm pretty sure run entirely on Social Security payments. Just be virtue of living somewhere like that, there is a hard upper cap on your income no matter what you do. There simply aren't any upper middle class jobs left outside of the cities. The factories that used to drive the entire economy of a small town have been closing up and either moving overseas or moving to the industrial districts of big (typically Southern) cities.
When you project into the future, I can think of several little towns that may not have any living residents left in 20 years. Places where the current average age is, like, 65.
[editline]8th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;46436894]uh no this is actually completely wrong
[editline]7th November 2014[/editline]
like, fundamentally wrong enough to make me doubt you even pay attention to politics because even a cursory view completely blows that statement out of the water[/QUOTE]
No, it's correct. But only if you're upside-down.
As an outsider looking in, I can't help but think that about 2 months after proper socialised healthcare gets implemented and people are no longer going bankrupt over broken bones, even the most staunch right wing pleb will think "goddamn i can't believe we didn't want this"
[QUOTE=Asmaedus;46437307]As an outsider looking in, I can't help but think that about 2 months after proper socialised healthcare gets implemented and people are no longer going bankrupt over broken bones, even the most staunch right wing pleb will think "goddamn i can't believe we didn't want this"[/QUOTE]
the problem is that half the american population would probably shriek in fear of "medical tyranny" or fema GPS chips or some shit
what is progress?
[QUOTE=Code3Response;46434042]In which most people take the third option: dont vote because no one poison is less deadly than the others.[/QUOTE]
So you can let other stupid people take stupid decisions in your place
Good sense of responsibility here buddy
[QUOTE=Karishnikova;46432915]Also you've got your terminology wrong.
"The Left" are conservatives (i.e. Republicans) "The Right" are liberals. (i.e. Democrats)
[/QUOTE]
Just to clear things up: you are incorrect. The Democrats are "the left," and the Republicans are "the right." This must have led to some confusing mix-ups for you in the past.
[editline]8th November 2014[/editline]
The ACA has several aspects that cannot go away under any circumstances:
>Coverage until 26 as a dependent under your parents
>Forcing insurance companies to cover preexisting conditions
>Subsidies for insurance costs for low-income families
>Mandating that businesses above a certain employee/profit threshold offer insurance (with certain tax benefits for doing so)
These have made massive impacts on the lives of low-income families. Getting rid of any one of these would be catastrophic for the lower class families of America. The number of uninsured people in this country has sunk by 25% thanks to the ACA; over 8 million people and counting. These are folks who could not previously afford health insurance, or who could not get fair coverage (or any coverage) because of pre-existing conditions. I am among those who now qualify for full and fair insurance packages, despite a physically limiting birth defect. I have hope in the medical system for the first time in a long time. There is the unfortunate fact, however, that these boons come at some costs. In order to pay for these programs, health insurance has become mandatory. Those without it will be fined, unless they are exempted for religious or financial reasons or what-have-you. While it is very, very stupid not have health-insurance in this country, this really isn't ideal, because health insurance in general is a leech in an already gluttonous medical system. Other sources of income include various taxes on medical equipment and the like.
For what it is, the ACA is adequate. It has done an outstanding job of accomplishing its goals of reaching a much wider audience with health insurance, and generally making healthcare somewhat more affordable for the general public, but it has had some ugly side effect, including: unchecked employers have slashed hours to avoid having enough full-time employees to provide health insurance. Unchecked insurance companies have hiked their rates for non-ACA customers in order to keep their profit margins where they were. Unchecked politicians pull at every thread they can dig out to attempt to destabilize the ACA to further their own political agendas. Despite these issues, though, the ACA is, on the whole, successful and necessary. It doesn't really [I]solve[/I] the problem with healthcare in America, because it only enforces an already corrupt system, but it is at least making life quite a bit easier for a whole lot of people.. My ideal solution would obviously be a fully universal health system. It has worked brilliantly for every nation in the Western World (and indeed, most of the world at large), and there is no reason why it could not work brilliantly here. It will be a very long time before America sees that, however. Any hint of a though towards such a system would blow a blood vessel in the brain of every lobbyist-funded Republican in congress. So in the meantime, yeah, the ACA has got to stay. If it goes, the consequences will be [I]tremendous.[/I]
[QUOTE=Karishnikova;46433479]
Even if you know 10,000 people, you know 0.00004% of the voting population. Congrats.[/QUOTE]
Man, you're really that dense huh?
I can't believe you think race has nothing to do with it in this day and age.
Just because America has modernized, doesn't mean old beliefs die.
What makes it worse is when the older generations pass on their hate to the younger generation.
You need to stop thinking that racism no longer exists and doesn't play a role in politics, because it does. Get your head out of your ass.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;46437910]-big post-[/QUOTE]
b-but my untested/unfounded assertions!
stop trying to bring [I]facts[/I] into this discussion you fascist!!
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;46437776]So you can let other stupid people take stupid decisions in your place
Good sense of responsibility here buddy[/QUOTE]
I never stated I dont/didnt vote. I said most people dont vote.. which is true.
Stupid assumption on your half there buddy.
I'm 23, so if the ACA gets repealed I'll lose my health insurance as I am currently unemployed and on my Mother's plan.
Fuck Republicans. There's no way that they'll do anything to make up for it if they repeal ACA, and I doubt insurance premiums will go back down to pre-ACA levels because corporations are greedy.
they don't have the votes, and obama would veto it.
Next
Isn't open enrollment starting again soon? Is it safe to sign up for a plan? My main fear is having to pay a shitload back at the end of the year because I made some kind of minor mistake on my application. There are a lot of big numbers and small numbers there.
Getting rid of Obamacare isn't the answer, fixing it definitely is. Compared to the socialized medicine of other countries Obamacare is absolute shit. All it is now is a government sponsored market for buying private health insurance. The only plans that are somewhat affordable are a joke and the good ones cost far too much for even middle-class families to own.
Oh and if you can't afford any of the plans? They'll penalize your tax return for not having health insurance. This whole situation is absolute bullshit and is used only to boost statistical data in regards to how many Americans are now insured. Yeah they're insured but their insurance probably doesn't cover half of the potential ailments that they might endure in the future.
We just need proper and quality socialized medicine. The U.S should have no problem doing that if we cut the unnecessary crap from our budget.
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