WikiLeaks whistleblower Chelsea Manning 'faces punishment for prison suicide attempt' - Polidicks

[QUOTE=bitches;50797010]that's just creepy being the law does not make it justice[/QUOTE] From a functional military standpoint sometimes there will be no justice. As fucked up as it is it is that way because it's the only way to maintain good order and discipline. You have to remember that the military is made up of trained killers who still fall victim to the human element just as much as any avarage Joe, and to have that function properly it can't be regulated in the same manner as normal people. While I'm not trying to justify the instances in reguards to the manning case, from the perspective as a whole it is a necessary evil to maintain a properly working military.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50797198]From a functional military standpoint sometimes there will be no justice. As fucked up as it is it is that way because it's the only way to maintain good order and discipline. You have to remember that the military is made up of trained killers who still fall victim to the human element just as much as any avarage Joe, and to have that function properly it can't be regulated in the same manner as normal people. While I'm not trying to justify the instances in reguards to the manning case, from the perspective as a whole it is a necessary evil to maintain a properly working military.[/QUOTE] the [I]literal loss of human rights[/I] is not acceptable no matter how much training tells you otherwise [editline]29th July 2016[/editline] if an armed force is not willing to obey orders and to die for their country [I]of their own accord[/I], that armed force and government don't have any right to force their continued existence

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50797130]Yeah it was no joke, I got to sit in front of my 1stSgt and legal cheif and convince them I'd still be able to train to get off the hook. Most painful week of my life, but didn't get NJP'd.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure it was less "destruction of government property" and more you sustained an injury by being careless that temporarily removed you from or limited your ability to perform your duty. I would tear into the ass of one of my Sailors if they came into work with severe sunburn lol.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;50796276]Do you even know anything about Manning's case? In what world do you think the whistle-blower act applies to Manning's reckless, illegal, and indiscriminate public leak of top secret government information? Are you confusing her with Snowden? Manning is not a hero. [editline]29th July 2016[/editline] Probably because she did some illegal stuff or appropriated items she shouldn't have during the carrying out of her suicide attempt.[/QUOTE] Isn't she the guy that revealed those gunship aircraft basically shooting people willy nilly, even people they clearly see on their knees with hands raised and reporters and stuff and just blast em with cannons? wasn't that him? i honestly need refreshing.

[QUOTE=jiggu;50796291]Isn't solitary confinement basically torture?[/QUOTE] It's usually reserved for inmates that can not be trusted among the prison population, often times gangsters or gang leaders. Them using it for Manning is clearly for punishment.

[QUOTE=bitches;50797788]the [I]literal loss of human rights[/I] is not acceptable no matter how much training tells you otherwise[/QUOTE] We voluntarily give them up. We get them back when we ETS. It's not like we're draftees. [QUOTE]f an armed force is not willing to obey orders and to die for their country of their own accord, that armed force and government don't have any right to force their continued existence[/QUOTE] Yeah, that's all well and good in an ideal world. Tell me, have you ever heard of the term "Sunshine Patriot"? How about "Summer Soldier"? You can't rely on people to be self-motivated and self-disciplined, not when you've got guys working 60+ hours a week repairing mission-critical hardware, or you're preparing for a brutal, 18-month deployment to an IED-infested shithole. High-minded ideals are all well and good back home, but when lives are depending on everybody doing their damn jobs right and not slacking off or fucking up, that shit goes right out the window. All that matters is getting the job done and bringing your people home.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;50797863]I'm pretty sure it was less "destruction of government property" and more you sustained an injury by being careless that temporarily removed you from or limited your ability to perform your duty. I would tear into the ass of one of my Sailors if they came into work with severe sunburn lol.[/QUOTE] Hence why I stated equates to, since the punishment is the same.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50799331]Hence why I stated equates to, since the punishment is the same.[/QUOTE] We just had a guy catch a nice Page 11 for a bad sunburn that took him out of a parade practice. That Oki life.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50796868]You do realise that once you sign the dotted line and enlist in the military that you give up certain rights and freedoms right?[/QUOTE] Something something [I]inalienable rights granted by god.[/I] It might be treason, and if so, she has a right to an attorney and a speedy trial.

[QUOTE=MaximLaHaxim;50796283]Punishing an unstable, suicidal person will do nothing more then fuck them up even harder than they already are, no matter the offence.[/QUOTE] Yes letting someone off for leaking top secret information will send a real good message to other potential leakers...

[QUOTE=bitches;50797788]the [I]literal loss of human rights[/I] is not acceptable no matter how much training tells you otherwise [editline]29th July 2016[/editline] if an armed force is not willing to obey orders and to die for their country [I]of their own accord[/I], that armed force and government don't have any right to force their continued existence[/QUOTE] What do you think the military is? Its not an organization that hugs teddy bears all day, its a standing army that asks of its members to kill and be killed in the name of their country and government. When you sign that dotted line, you are not a person anymore, you are a physical piece of government property. You are a number in a giant list of numbers. None of that is forced upon you, joining the military in the US is a decision an individual has to make on their own, nobody is forced to join. No person should forcibly have their rights removed, but I see no issue with it if they willing give their rights up so they can more effectively serve their country. And what do you mean in your followup post? You think that a person joins the army and expects to never see combat? Theyre a naive fool if they do, and they dont [i]have[\i] to kill, but they have to face the consequences for it. Again, joining the military is a conscious decision a person makes, and part of that decision includes the consideration of taking life, maiming, being maimed, and dying in that duty. Saying that a person goes into combat unwillingly despite willingly joining the military is fucking stupid. [editline]30th July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Blizzerd;50798552]Isn't she the guy that revealed those gunship aircraft basically shooting people willy nilly, even people they clearly see on their knees with hands raised and reporters and stuff and just blast em with cannons? wasn't that him? i honestly need refreshing.[/QUOTE] That was one thing that was revealed, but he also revealed sensitive data that was in no way incriminating but put the lives of servicemen in danger. As far as that video goes, what you need to understand is that the helicopter thags doing the shooting is 10s of miles away from their target. A TV camera looks a lot like an RPG at that distance. Its a travesty that that happened but revealing that wasnt worth the lives put at risk because of it.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;50799976]Yes letting someone off for leaking top secret information will send a real good message to other potential leakers...[/QUOTE] Um, that's isn't remotely what he was talking about? He was saying Chelsea shouldn't be essentially tortured in solitary confinement for attempting suicide, not that she should just be released from prison.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;50800155]What do you think the military is? Its not an organization that hugs teddy bears all day, its a standing army that asks of its members to kill and be killed in the name of their country and government. When you sign that dotted line, you are not a person anymore, you are a physical piece of government property. You are a number in a giant list of numbers. None of that is forced upon you, joining the military in the US is a decision an individual has to make on their own, nobody is forced to join. No person should forcibly have their rights removed, but I see no issue with it if they willing give their rights up so they can more effectively serve their country. And what do you mean in your followup post? You think that a person joins the army and expects to never see combat? Theyre a naive fool if they do, and they dont [i]have[\i] to kill, but they have to face the consequences for it. Again, joining the military is a conscious decision a person makes, and part of that decision includes the consideration of taking life, maiming, being maimed, and dying in that duty. Saying that a person goes into combat unwillingly despite willingly joining the military is fucking stupid. [/QUOTE] What is the purpose of signing away a lot of your rights, though? I understand signing a harsh NDA, but the literal impingement of your rights has always seemed like a little much

[QUOTE=Marbalo;50802029]I don't get it, solitary confinement for attempted suicide is, I thought, common practice in military detention centers and probably jails as well. As fucked up as that sounds, putting a suicidal person in solitary restricts their ability to effectively terminate their life as there's not much you could do at that point besides bang your head on the wall repeatedly or gnaw through your wrists (which serves as a pretty solid deterrent to suicide because the only way out is through a lot fucking repeated self-inflicted pain). I was in an Israeli military prison for 5 months and anytime a person did something radical, whether it be violence against fellow inmates or attempted suicide, they were put in solitary for at least a few days. Most people just fake it to get better treatment or think of it as an easy way out of jail and that's why I think the practice was put in place, it's to weed out the attention seekers from those with real suicidal thoughts. The problem is it's often too late once you find out who had real problems and who was just pretending.[/QUOTE] Whoa, were you in the Israeli military prison as a.. captive? Anyhow, speaking of solitary confinement in general, I don't think it has to be torturous, but really there aren't many options for certain inmates. If inmates are deemed too dangerous, they could be held in solitary confinement indefinitely imo, but there should be like eating time or working time, where you get to work and eat with other inmates as well. Perhaps only with other solitary inmates, but in highly secure, functional and well-designed prison complex. And the cells itself should offer something more than just your own thoughts to amuse you. It doesn't have to be much. Some kind of a cheap TV screen or even newspapers? With more or less options when it comes down to the channel, station and volume level. Shuts off at certain time of day. I'm not sure how it usually goes in prisons, or what it is that solitary inmates would like to have that can be allowed or isn't seen as too much or too expensive. But those are just the smaller details of their forced accommodation, as I mentioned above I find it far, far more important to employ the inmates, make them do productive work, lifetime and solitary inmates especially. And treat them pretty good for it no matter the crime. Make them realize they have no possibility to ever get out because they did a crime or a series of crimes, yet have the possibility to do something in life, in prison. I'm sure many criminals could work with that, and I don't think it'd be an impossible investment from a construction standpoint. Question is though, would it be profitable and worth it? Another option would be to house them as cheaply as possible, without employing them, without offering much if any luxuries (are newspapers a luxury?) and so on, to make the whole prison have as small strain on the country's economy as possible but still having a strain, where potential profits also lie in the form of almost "free" labor, cheaper anyway.

[QUOTE=catbarf;50796782]Gonna echo JumpinJackFlash: I'd probably be a lot more sympathetic if the story was 'Manning tried to whistleblow the protected way, and failed, so had no choice but to go to the press'. I'd also be a lot more sympathetic if Manning only leaked documents relative to the wrongdoing she saw. But neither is how it went- the real story is that Manning took as many classified documents as she could get her hands on and sent them to Wikileaks without making any attempt to verify their contents or follow whistleblowing procedure. I don't deny that the whistleblowing system needs an overhaul, but putting the lives of your fellow countrymen at risk by exposing classified information to the public should be the last resort, not first course of action, and leaking all kinds of irrelevant information was unnecessary and unjustified.[/QUOTE] If manning tried to whistleblow the "protected" way then it wouldn't have come out at all. This is infinitely preferable.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;50802634]No, I was a soldier in the IDF and went AWOL for a period of 11 months so that I could work to pay some bills. After I got back I was sentenced to a five month period of incarceration in Prison 4. Definitely not a fun time, but the guards are literally 18-19 year olds that actually have the authority to put you in solitary. It wasn't anything like you picture it as, however. It's a little far fetched for foreigners, but soldiers going AWOL and being reprimanded is pretty much common place in the IDF. I reckon 1 out of 3 soldiers at one point or another during their mandatory 3 (2.8 now) years of service have spent a small amount of time in prison for minor offenses, most common of which is going AWOL.[/QUOTE] They don't do hardship discharges?

[QUOTE=strayebyrd;50802278]What is the purpose of signing away a lot of your rights, though? I understand signing a harsh NDA, but the literal impingement of your rights has always seemed like a little much[/QUOTE] Benefits, and you dont lose your rights forever, only for the duration of your service. After leaving the military, vets can take advantage of the GI bill, they get better government benefits and health care, better access to a lot of stuff, not to mention free college. Theyre also paid throughout the whole process and can learn a lot of certifiable skills that will help them outside the military, and military service is amazing for a resume. A lot of people see military service as a reward all in its own. [editline]31st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=elowin;50802346]If manning tried to whistleblow the "protected" way then it wouldn't have come out at all. This is infinitely preferable.[/QUOTE] It wouldnt have come out because deployment information is not incriminating information. He did leak incriminating stuff, but the vast majority was not incriminating. He leaked classified information, not whistleblowing stuff. If he took the video of the apache slaughtering those civilians, and just that video, then he wouldnt be spending time in solitary.

[QUOTE=bitches;50797010]that's just creepy being the law does not make it justice[/QUOTE] Uniform Code of Military Justice. I don't know about the army but the very first thing a recruit hoping to become a Marine learns, when arriving at the recruit depot, are a few of the articles of the UCMJ - you are told [b]first thing[/b] that the military has its own codified law, and you are told [b]with no uncertainty[/b] the most important parts of it if you can't accept the fact that joining the military means being held to certain standards, do not join the military

[QUOTE=Complifusedv2;50796382]I'm sure the conditions are no 'abysmal', its a prison so I doubt (and hope) its not luxury. But solitary would fuck with you more[/QUOTE] its a small room with no human contact at all. humans are social animals and require some kind of contact or else they go insane/irate.

being part of the military still means you'd be a part of the UN's human rights presumably that being said, given the US can draft, does that not mean that people can be forced to have their rights taken from them by drafting them

[QUOTE=AnonymaPizza;50799963]Something something [I]inalienable rights granted by god.[/I] It might be treason, and if so, she has a right to an attorney and a speedy trial.[/QUOTE] Yeah those rights, you don't get them in the military. You voluntarily give them up unless you're drafted, which hasn't happened since Vietnam. So no, she doesn't have a right to a speedy trial or to be judged by her peers. She has the right to consult a JAG and face a court marshal under military tribunal as outlined in the UCMJ.

[QUOTE=Map in a box;50803954]being part of the military still means you'd be a part of the UN's human rights presumably that being said, given the US can draft, does that not mean that people can be forced to have their rights taken from them by drafting them[/QUOTE] You can dodge the draft if you want, you will just pretty much permanently lose a lot of shit because of it. You also dont have to sign up for the draft, but again, you lose a lot of governments benefits because of it. If youre drafted, youre not a permanent part of the military. They hold you until the war is over or until your time is up. After your time is up, your rights are restored and a lot of benefits are bestowed on you.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;50804134]You can dodge the draft if you want, you will just pretty much permanently lose a lot of shit because of it. You also dont have to sign up for the draft, but again, you lose a lot of governments benefits because of it. If youre drafted, youre not a permanent part of the military. They hold you until the war is over or until your time is up. After your time is up, your rights are restored and a lot of benefits are bestowed on you.[/QUOTE] There are a lot of hoops you have to jump through to avoid being in the draft due to quite a few of the "ways out" being infested with fines and etc

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50803959]Yeah those rights, you don't get them in the military. You voluntarily give them up unless you're drafted, which hasn't happened since Vietnam. So no, she doesn't have a right to a speedy trial or to be judged by her peers. She has the right to consult a JAG and face a court marshal under military tribunal as outlined in the UCMJ.[/QUOTE] Well that's one way for them to try to contain and handle their own internalized problems and leaks.

[QUOTE=Map in a box;50805730]There are a lot of hoops you have to jump through to avoid being in the draft due to quite a few of the "ways out" being infested with fines and etc[/QUOTE] Yea, like I said, you don't have to sign up for the draft but you pretty much are fucking yourself by doing so.