Russia warns Poland not to touch Soviet WW2 memorials
82 replies, posted
[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52539999]Those damn Russian subhumans, all they ever do is rape and pillage like the slavic untermensch they are. I am ashamed my great grandfather fought in the war as a soviet and literally raped all women in all of Europe, if only the German liberators had saved slavdom from the evil super rapists and killed off my family line would Poland truly be free.[/QUOTE]
Nice strawman.
Not once did he mention the Russians as "sub-human". Yes, the soviets did do mass rape and mass killings on numerous occasions (yes there were instances of American and British rapes/killings but never nearly as large) He said nothing of a "if the Germans won, everything would be good!" The only thing he said that could be viewed as "offensive" is "The truth of the matter is that ordinary Soviet troops in Poland didn't behave much better than a bunch of filthy barbarians towards the natives." Sorry to tell you this, history isn't about feeling good, it's about the truth.
Spoiler alert [sp] every country has done something it isn't (or shouldn't) be proud of. [/sp]
[QUOTE=Govna;52539992]...it's no surprise they were celebrating the arrival of the Germans.[/QUOTE]
And then the Germans went on to do the same thing...
[QUOTE=RedBaronFlyer;52540047]Nice strawman.
Not once did he mention the Russians as "sub-human". Yes, the soviets did do mass rape and mass killings on numerous occasions (yes there were instances of American and British rapes/killings but never nearly as large) He said nothing of a "if the Germans won, everything would be good!"
The only thing he said that could be viewed as "offensive" is "The truth of the matter is that ordinary Soviet troops in Poland didn't behave much better than a bunch of filthy barbarians towards the natives."
But sorry to tell you this, history isn't about feeling good, it's about the truth. Spoiler alert, every country has done something it isn't (or shouldn't) be proud of.[/QUOTE]
He's fucking implying heavily that every Russian was a rapist scoundrel, this is just not fucking true. I have direct relatives who fought in that war, they were not the barbarian hordes from the East that seems to be the popular narrative in the west. The Nazis raped more women in Russia, and burnt half of the damn country to the ground, some Russians took out their anger on the civilian populations (which is wrong, yes. But not every single russian did this ) but the were punished for their actions by higher ups (In the 50's a lot of Soldiers were imprisoned for these crimes). There was an entire long trial post war about this. The Americans and british flattened dresden, raped in the west, killed an unimaginable amount of civilian populations in both fronts, better get rid of memorials of the sacrifice of men from that side too yes?
I'm not really big on the legacy of my great grandfathers generation being tarnished. Considering what he told me he saw, he and other soldiers deserves to be remembered.
[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52540075]He's fucking implying heavily that every Russian was a rapist scoundrel, this is just not fucking true. I have direct relatives who fought in that war, they were not the barbarian hordes from the East that seems to be the popular narrative in the west.[/QUOTE]
I agree that the notion that every Russian was a rapist barbarian was over the line, no doubt about that. But I have noticed that Russia tends to fervently deny anything it did or massively tries to downplay it, I could be very wrong however.
[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52540075]The Nazis raped more women in Russia, and burnt half of the damn country to the ground, some Russians took out their anger on the civilian populations (which is wrong, yes. But not every single russian did this ) but the were punished for their actions by higher ups (In the 50's a lot of Soldiers were imprisoned for these crimes). There was an entire long trial post war about this.[/QUOTE]
I haven't found anything about the claim of the Germans committing more rape in Russia (I don't know if you're meaning more than Russia did in total) And I haven't found anything about any soviet war crime trials in the 1950's.
[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52540075]The Americans and british flattened dresden, raped in the west, killed an unimaginable amount of civilian populations in both fronts, better get rid of memorials of the sacrifice of men from that side too yes?[/QUOTE]
I know too well of the Dresden bombings, as my grandmother was a young teenager in the heart of the city when that happened. I suppose a difference is that the west didn't erect monuments in the countries they liberated. (could be very wrong about this)
[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52540075]I'm not really big on the legacy of my great grandfathers generation being tarnished. Considering what he told me he saw, he and other soldiers deserves to be remembered.[/QUOTE]
I fully understand this part, the statues should be preserved where they are, especially of the soldiers, or sent back to Russia untarnished if the Polish government does not want them.
[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52540075] he and other soldiers deserves to be remembered.[/QUOTE]
Then they can be remembered in their homeland. Not Poland. The statues should be destroyed.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52540161]Then they can be remembered in their homeland. Not Poland. The statues should be destroyed.[/QUOTE]
Should I walk down to my town square and smash the statue we've got in remembrance of the liberation of our town?
[QUOTE=joost1120;52540191]Should I walk down to my town square and smash the statue we've got in remembrance of the liberation of our town?[/QUOTE]
Are the majority dutch people calling for their destruction or movement?
[QUOTE=Native Hunter;52540223]Are the majority dutch people calling for their destruction or movement?[/QUOTE]
Not really. Does it matter? The RAF bombed The Hague and killed 550 people while displacing 40000. Should we not just remove and destroy all allied memorials because a part of those people did bad things?
Personally, I think Poland is free to remove it. But to destroy it just doesn't seem wise. Just send it back to Russia.
[QUOTE=joost1120;52540263]Not really. Does it matter? The RAF bombed The Hague and killed 550 people while displacing 40000. Should we not just remove and destroy all allied memorials because a part of those people did bad things?
Personally, I think Poland is free to remove it. But to destroy it just doesn't seem wise. Just send it back to Russia.[/QUOTE]
If the dutch wanted to destroy them they have every right to, its your country and you can do what you want with it. If the Poles believe that the best option is to destroy them, especially since its more than likely cheaper to do so. My point is that its the people's choice to do what they want with relics and memorials. Ideally, yea in a perfect world we could just put such things in museums and galleries to let people learn from the past. But sadly thats expensive and something that won't happen. My point being here is that if people want to get rid of memorials, no matter what side its on they should be free to do so.
The fact that Russia is threatening Poland over this is the most disturbing part, because to do so in nothing than a breach to the Polish sovereignty. Telling them what they can and can't do with things in their borders. Like you said the memorials are there for people to remember those who died in the fighting, and while its better preserved Poland should not have to answer to a foreign nation about what it does with monuments in its own borders.
[QUOTE=Native Hunter;52540288]If the dutch wanted to destroy them they have every right to, its your country and you can do what you want with it. If the Poles believe that the best option is to destroy them, especially since its more than likely cheaper to do so. My point is that its the people's choice to do what they want with relics and memorials. Ideally, yea in a perfect world we could just put such things in museums and galleries to let people learn from the past. But sadly thats expensive and something that won't happen. My point being here is that if people want to get rid of memorials, no matter what side its on they should be free to do so.
The fact that Russia is threatening Poland over this is the most disturbing part, because to do so in nothing than a breach to the Polish sovereignty. Telling them what they can and can't do with things in their borders. Like you said the memorials are there for people to remember those who died in the fighting, and while its better preserved Poland should not have to answer to a foreign nation about what it does with monuments in its own borders.[/QUOTE]
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I just capitalized my point that the statue is remembering the soldiers, not the communists.
[QUOTE=RedBaronFlyer;52540142]I haven't found anything about the claim of the Germans committing more rape in Russia (I don't know if you're meaning more than Russia did in total)[/QUOTE]
Well I mean the fact that the Wehrmacht set up brothels full of sex slaves and to my knowledge the Red Army didn't makes it plausible.
[editline]4th August 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Govna;52526640]The truth of the matter is that ordinary Soviet troops (never mind the brutality of the NKVD and the political aspect of things, which is what you're attempting to deflect attention towards) in Poland didn't behave much better than a bunch of filthy barbarians towards the natives. They do not deserve to be commemorated. There should be no statutes standing for them, especially if the Russians think that they can go around making threats like this over said statutes and monuments.[/QUOTE]
"Filthy barbarians" who probably felt venerated with what had happened to their people on their soil. The Red Army was quite big so it's quite lofty of you to say "ordinary". Rapes were mass spread but when you have such a big army that's gone through so much every individual being a peachy rule follower doesn't happen. It's a shame that this eye for an eye mentality exists in humans as it really does only makes the world blind.
[QUOTE=joost1120;52540355]I wholeheartedly agree with you. I just capitalized my point that the statue is remembering the soldiers, not the communists.[/QUOTE]
The statutes are not in place to remember the soldiers, despite what any Soviet said. Theyre there as a reminder; "remember, you owe us". Theyre monuments to communism, not the fighting men of the Red Army.
Your comparison of your country's liberation statues and the Soviet ones is complete crap. The British and Americans did not wait outside of your capital while they waited for the Germans to eradicate the last vestiges of your country's former ideology. They did not take 20,000+ Officer POWs and execute them in the forrest, then blame it on the Nazis and refuse responsibility for 70 years. They did not take Jews and political dissidents and hand them over to the Gestapo to be sent to camps.
At least when the Western Allies killed civilians, it was generally an accident, not because they were trying to eliminate any ideologies that conflicted with the Soviet mindset. The Soviets do not need to be commemorated anywhere outside of Russia.
[QUOTE=RedBaronFlyer;52540142]I haven't found anything about the claim of the Germans committing more rape in Russia (I don't know if you're meaning more than Russia did in total) And I haven't found anything about any soviet war crime trials in the 1950's.
[/QUOTE]
Not sure about the Germans committing more rape or not but they did run forced brothels in occupied territories all over Europe.
I wish people would stop with "Ideology X killed more people than ideology Y".
It's not a fucking sport.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;52526477]It's a tricky situation.
On one hand, those statues are meant to commemorate and immortalize the men who gave their lives fighting Germany, defending their nation and liberating Poland.
While the Red Army atrocities in Poland are well documented, you cannot honestly think that literally every single Soviet soldier only came to Poland to rape, plunder and wreck havoc. What the Soviet Union did post-war is also abhorrent, [I]but that should not erase or overshadow the efforts of the men who fought honorably and died honorably. [/I] They do not deserve to be forgotten, and I understand where Russia is coming from.
Remove every monument that praises the Soviet Union or public figures like Lenin, Stalin, etc, (if they haven't been removed already), but Poland should definitely keep the monuments that are meant to represent the soldiers who died for something greater, and who scarified literally everything to stop Germany from being an aggressive expansionist cunt. I think this should be preserved.
[editline]31st July 2017[/editline]
Like seriously posts like these;
Are doing more harm than good. You are literally lumping every single Soviet soldier into one big blob of authoritarianism, and while I understand what the leadership of the Soviet Union did, when they aggressively trampled Poland in the name of their own personal political agendas, and even the lowest Soviet soldiers committed terrible crimes in their own respective ways, the majority of Red Army soldiers were there to push Germany back into their own borders, and inflict upon it the same destruction that it wrecked upon the Soviet Union, the civilians, and the homes of the soldiers who have now taken the fight to them. This -majority-, should not be brushed aside and definitely should not be forgotten or pushed to the sidelines of history. An afterthought. A "PS" at the bottom of a long letter. I dont see how you can rationalize it otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Poland didn't really get liberated though did it? It got reconquered, switching owners.
[QUOTE=millan;52541685]I wish people would stop with "Ideology X killed more people than ideology Y".
It's not a fucking sport.[/QUOTE]
No, but its important to realize that the Soviets were an ally of convenience and necessity, not because they were the greater good or the heroes of the war.
Had it been the Soviets that started the war, the Allied would have happily backed the Germans, even if lead by Hitler.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52542977]No, but its important to realize that the Soviets were an ally of convenience and necessity, not because they were the greater good or the heroes of the war.
Had it been the Soviets that started the war, the Allied would have happily backed the Germans, even if lead by Hitler.[/QUOTE]
I'm not so sure about that, the British and French disliked Germany on a more personal level, France even wanted to see Germany dismantled and it's territory given to neighboring countries (including France, of course). When the Soviet Union invaded Poland at the end of World War II, Britain clarified that the defense agreement was only for help against Germany, and ended their civil and military support to Poland. I don't think there was ever any chance they would have fought the Soviet Union unless it invaded them first. After all, that's what it took for them to fight Germany, and they already hated Germany. Little known fact is that both declared war on Germany almost nine months before Germany invaded France, but no major action was taken in that time.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52543320]I'm not so sure about that, the British and French disliked Germany on a more personal level, France even wanted to see Germany dismantled and it's territory given to neighboring countries (including France, of course). When the Soviet Union invaded Poland at the end of World War II, Britain clarified that the defense agreement was only for help against Germany, and ended their civil and military support to Poland. I don't think there was ever any chance they would have fought the Soviet Union unless it invaded them first. After all, that's what it took for them to fight Germany, and they already hated Germany. Little known fact is that both declared war on Germany almost nine months before Germany invaded France, but no major action was taken in that time.[/QUOTE]
I'm aware of the circumstances that lead up to WWII. Every major western leader hated Stalin and the Soviets as much, if not more, than they hated Germany.
As I said earlier, if the Soviet Union invaded Poland or a western country without the aid of Germany, then the western allies would have very happily teamed up with Germany, just as they did when they teamed up with the Soviet Union. If there were a role reversal between the Soviet Union and Germany, the US, France, and Britain would have handled it exactly the same.
Brittain declared war on anyone who was allied with Germany. This also includes Finland when they were invaded by the Soviets. One of the few wars in history between 2 nations where no one died. Their declaration of war on Germany and the Soviets was intended to stall or stop any further aggression towards western nations the Allies actually cared about.
Brittain and France having declared war and doing nothing is not a little known fact. Its literally where the term "sitzkrieg" comes from.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52543868]As I said earlier, if the Soviet Union invaded Poland or a western country without the aid of Germany, then the western allies would have very happily teamed up with Germany, just as they did when they teamed up with the Soviet Union. If there were a role reversal between the Soviet Union and Germany, the US, France, and Britain would have handled it exactly the same.[/QUOTE]
But they did though, they took over parts of Eastern Europe, Central Europe, Central Asia, and East Asia (some islands that used to be Japanese).
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52544326]But they did though, they took over parts of Eastern Europe, Central Europe, Central Asia, and East Asia (some islands that used to be Japanese).[/QUOTE]
This was at the end of the war when the Allies were exhausted, plus the Soviets were kicking out the Japanese so its not like they were [i]only [/] annexing. The Korean war was the consequence of Soviet aggression in Asia.
Plus the Soviet Union had the largest mechanized military on the planet completely in thanks to British and American support. The west would have been fools to attack the Soviets. They would have been outnumbered and outgunned on the ground.
Plus what you mentioned isn't a roll reversal and the country's in Asia did not matter to the Allied until after the war. Japan was raping its way through China years before anyone did anything about it.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52543868]I'm aware of the circumstances that lead up to WWII. Every major western leader hated Stalin and the Soviets as much, if not more, than they hated Germany.
As I said earlier, if the Soviet Union invaded Poland or a western country without the aid of Germany, then the western allies would have very happily teamed up with Germany, just as they did when they teamed up with the Soviet Union. If there were a role reversal between the Soviet Union and Germany, the US, France, and Britain would have handled it exactly the same.
Brittain declared war on anyone who was allied with Germany. This also includes Finland when they were invaded by the Soviets. One of the few wars in history between 2 nations where no one died. Their declaration of war on Germany and the Soviets was intended to stall or stop any further aggression towards western nations the Allies actually cared about.
Brittain and France having declared war and doing nothing is not a little known fact. Its literally where the term "sitzkrieg" comes from.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure that the allies would not have had such a hard time, the reason why poland collapsed was because it had war on 2 fronts, if say a less agressive germany agreed to a ribentroph pact with the allies instead of with the soviets, then the allies might have brought forces into poland and directly bolstered its defenses.
on the other hand, they might have just as well sat out the war and let the soviets and the nazis beat each other up in eastern europe.
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