Anti-immigrant 'Soldiers of Odin' raise concern in Finland - Polidicks

White supremacists have a tendency to go past dog-whistling into a full-on dog-woodwind-section.

[QUOTE=UtraWalrus;49525965]I'm not really sure what you're saying here, so its wrong to have white pride because the association is linked to racism and violence? Also most people group Germans into the category of being white so.[/QUOTE] White pride isn't inherently bad or wrong. It's the people who take a liking to white pride who bugger it up.

[QUOTE=axelord157;49525993]White pride isn't inherently bad or wrong. It's the people who take a liking to white pride who bugger it up.[/QUOTE] I agree, but do you think that maybe the reason why white pride is filled with extremists, is because the current political climate is sensitive to anything regarding white nationalism, leaving out the casual people/supporter? I consider myself to have white pride but I would never risk telling my friends that, (family is indifferent) I'll probably lose most of them, yet I would never advocate violence, discrimination, or injustice under the law to any group of people. The automatic labeling and fear is enough to prevent me from even admitting it non-anonymously , let alone be an active member in a group. I imagine this prevents many others from doing the same, causing these fringe groups to be extremist (or appear extremist) in nature, because of the exclusion of rational heads they otherwise would have.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;49525137]I wonder how people would react if there was the "Army of Christ" walking around in, say, Munich.[/QUOTE] Well, we can start with the major difference that one of these groups is tribute to a true European religion, and the other is based off a Hebrew cult that invaded Europe and butchered European culture 2,000 years ago.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;49526203]Why have pride in something you have absolutely no control over? Why take pride in being almost the default configuration a person can be in your society?[/QUOTE] Because you look at history and see what your kind has accomplished or created that others have not. Its rooting for the home team. Its human nature. Tribalism and association. Loving how you were born, the country you come from, or the culture you were raised with. Asking why is a bit silly, its just how humans work.

[QUOTE=UtraWalrus;49526198]I agree, but do you think that maybe the reason why white pride is filled with extremists, is because the current political climate is sensitive to anything regarding white nationalism, leaving out the casual people/supporter? I consider myself to have white pride but I would never risk telling my friends that, (family is indifferent) I'll probably lose most of them, yet I would never advocate violence, discrimination, or injustice under the law to any group of people. The automatic labeling and fear is enough to prevent me from even admitting it non-anonymously , let alone be an active member in a group. I imagine this prevents many others from doing the same, causing these fringe groups to be extremist (or appear extremist) in nature, because of the exclusion of rational heads they otherwise would have.[/QUOTE] Sad to say, but you're part of the minority of white pride supporters. I think the reason white pride is filled with extremist is because of 1.) Racists look at white pride and say "hell yeah, white supremacy" and 2.) White pride started from pretty extreme viewpoints in the first place. There aren't any rational heads in white pride. The ones who don't shave their heads and wave around the black and white celtic cross flags have masks of sanity to go along with their fancy suits. Believe me, they know they have to appear resonable. Look at dudes like George Wallace, he knew what he could get away with. Dudes like Don Black (owner and founder of Stormfront) know they can't go around saying nigger this, negro that, so they tone down their message and hope it becomes more acceptable, then they start to get more extreme and vocal once people accept their watered-down message.

Saying that Islamist intruders cause insecurity and increase crime is something akin to saying Water is Wet; this shouldn't be particularly disputable. And while far from all the migrants (let's call them for what they are, because most of them aren't refugees) are Islamists- much less terrorists- too many of them are. But the "White Finland" goes well beyond what I would call a reasonable concern for defense in these dangerous times. What are the Sami to these people? Chopped meat? I agree with UnknownDude; I know plenty of Neo-National Socialists and the role (usually highly b@stardized) retellings of Germano-Norse Paganism have had on them and the "White Power" movement in general. I'm not prepared to say that these people ARE White Racists... but that's my benefit of the doubt at play. Ultimately though, I think these.... "people" are a symptom, not the cause (and a comparatively minor one at that, compared to the likes of Putin, Orban, and the like). There always have been hard core racist nutters around and I believe barring a miracle in the classical sense there always will be. But the vacuum caused by the massive illegal immigration lately and the inability of legitimate authorities to keep a lid on it means that people will look elsewhere for their problems. And when otherwise good people turn to the nutter fringe because it's better than hoping your local cops don't turn away, Bad Things Happen. Deal with the migrant crisis in a productive way, and I believe these groups will wither on the vine without the kind of vacuum that prompts them. [QUOTE=Aredbomb;49525129]...But the Finnish weren't followers of Germanic Paganism. They had their own religion.[/QUOTE] Agreed, and mainstream Swedish colonization of Finland happened well after the conversion of the Scandinavians to Christianity. But while the natives of Finland did indeed have their own religion (and one more closely tied to the traditional Slavic ones), a few things to keep in mind: A: The average Finn today probably owes more to intermarriage with the Swedes (and other Scandinavians) and the Slavs than to the Sami or ethnic Finns. B: There were indeed Old Heathen (by which I mean the original reference to the Heaths Germano-Norse Pagan religious festivals often occured around; I am a Christian myself but mean no offense) Scandinavian settlements in what is now Finland before mainstream Christianization. C: The Finns were quite integrated into the generalized trading and raiding in the Eastern Baltic and had been for centuries; so they were probably quite familiar with the old Norse and Vikingr, and probably had more than a few influences on it. [QUOTE=Rangergxi;49525155]The Klu Klux Klan is a christian organization and is quite hated.[/QUOTE] Agreed with caveats. The Klan(s) have always been more White Supremacist than Christian (and they allowed a few deeply anti-clerical nutjobs to add in). Their religious orientation before the fall of the Second Klan was something akin to deeply xenophobic nondenominational Protestant, but since then they've branched out to basically anyone with White Skin who Hates anybody without it. Including the kind of Neo-Norse Pagans that were the bedrock of this. [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;49525329]Okay, again, let's think of this. Imagine if a group of angry, probably armed men calling themselves the "United Army of Christ" began marching around in the streets of Munich, saying that they will "protect" the "natural order" of things, and other sorts of BS. I would feel far more threatened by them than I would someone who happens to be non-white, which is probably the main target for these "defense groups". If people will call out the bizarre militias in the US, they should call them out in Europe too. They're the same damned thing, except the latter are racially/religiously motivated, which is even scarier.[/QUOTE] No matter your religious or national opinions, let's be clear: I may be deeply skeptical of these sorts- and outright hostile to the tripe Putin, the Le Pens, and their Ilk are peddling- but let's be honest here: until these guys are mustering hundreds strong rape-and-grope crowds or using RPGs on the police they're secondary concerns. Much like they would be if this were in Lebanon dealing with an exodus of North Americans and you had some moderate Muslims or Druze claiming to protect their own using religious and racial claims while a thousand pasty white WASPs decide to prey on anyone they can. That's why I say these guys are the symptom of the greater problem, not the problem itself (Even if they are an independent problem). Oh cert..... ugh... [QUOTE=certified;49526207]Well, we can start with the major difference that one of these groups is tribute to a true European religion, and the other is based off a Hebrew cult that invaded Europe and butchered European culture 2,000 years ago.[/QUOTE] What does "true European religion" even mean? Traditional German-Norse Heathenism is just another branch of Indo-European religion;a and the "Aryans" associated with it were people from the Iranian Plateau and Siberian steppes. Also, in terms of butchering "European Culture" just about NOBODY did that more than the traditional Germanic groups that bulldozed into the Greco-Roman world trying to escape famine (and of course, get lots of loot). We KNOW that the burning of Lindisfarne not only destroyed a lot of post-conversion works, but plenty of classical ones as well. And in many ways, the ascent of that "Hebrew Cult" was aided by the crisis of those migrations. @rangergxi Boo Yah! Alan Wake Fan! :D

[QUOTE=Turtler;49526308]Saying that Islamist intruders cause insecurity and increase crime is something akin to saying Water is Wet; this shouldn't be particularly disputable. And while far from all the migrants (let's call them for what they are, because most of them aren't refugees) are Islamists- much less terrorists- too many of them are.[/QUOTE] The heck do you even mean by "too many of them are", how many of them are? [editline]14th January 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=UtraWalrus;49526250]Because you look at history and see what your kind has accomplished or created that others have not. Its rooting for the home team. Its human nature. Tribalism and association. Loving how you were born, the country you come from, or the culture you were raised with. [B]Asking why is a bit silly, its just how humans work.[/B][/QUOTE] That's a silly thing to say, wether or not you think it makes sense to have pride in something you had no part of. While you can be proud of whatever you want in my opinion, the tribalism you mention, this whole "we and they" mentality is unproductive and even harmful, and there are so many examples in history and even in the world today where nationalism and racial pride has led to human negligence and worse.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;49526203]Why have pride in something you have absolutely no control over? Why take pride in being almost the default configuration a person can be in your society?[/QUOTE] I agree but I can't help but see a double standard.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49526328]The heck do you even mean by "too many of them are", [/QUOTE] Simple. A great deal of them have been proven to be Islamists (Muslim Theocrats, as opposed to plain ol' Muslims), and Terrorists. The Paris massacre was partially carried out by them. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;49526328]how many of them are[/QUOTE] That's the thing. We don't know. Which is terrifying in its' own right. Of all the millions coming in, we don't know how many bad apples there are. Whether it's 75%, 50%, 5%, or 0.5% (and even the lower numbers still include a lot of people). While we're on the subject of Hitler's thugs and allies, when the British accepted refugees fleeing the Fascist onslaught on mainland Europe, they were able to quite thoroughly vet who was who and weed out who they were. Including who were actual refugees, who were hanger ons, and who were outright enemy agents. We haven't been able to do that here. And people are admitting that. And frankly that needs to change. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;49526328]That's a silly thing to say,[/QUOTE] Maybe but it is true. The old term "Better the Devil you know" often boils down to it. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;49526328]wether or not you think it makes sense to have pride in something you had no part of.[/QUOTE] Which raises the question of how we determine who does and doesn't have a part of something. Though still, I have a sense of pride in-say- what Eagle Squadron of WWII did against the Luftwaffe, and the Flying Tigers did against the Japanese Empire. Or even what the African slaves who fought for their freedom on the Amistad Even though I am not connected to ES or TFT, and no connection to anyone who was connected to it. And that the slaves of the Amistad were not even my fellow Americans. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;49526328] the tribalism you mention, this whole "we and they" mentality is unproductive and even harmful, and there are so many examples in history and even in the world today where nationalism and racial pride has led to human negligence and worse.[/QUOTE] Eh, yes and no. Sure, tribalism, We vs. They, nationalism, and racial pride (Even when not spiraling into bigotry) have caused many issues and are counterproductive. But at the same time they have endured for a long time and not for completely illogical reasons. Say what you will about tribes, but they tend to look out for their own and help each other survive. Especially when the environment is quite savage. It's a lot easier to gather enough food to live when you don't just define kin as your immediate family, and it's a lot easier to face enemies down alone when you have other people in it. It's very crude and often cruel, but then so are a lot of the situations humans have dealt with.

[QUOTE=Talishmar;49525290]Xenophobes with a background of violence looking for a justification to continue their self-expression. I'm much more scared of these kind of people than the average refugees.[/QUOTE] Why though? They wouldn't hurt Finnish people. Hell, there hasn't been a single report of them doing anything illegal even though they have been patrolling for months.

[QUOTE=opaali;49526473]Why though? [/QUOTE] The racialist rhetoric certainly makes me concerned, and I'm not exactly some kind of person who believes that every migrant to cross the Med is a saintly refugee fleeing IS and Assad. Even well intended and honestly founded groups like that can be corrupted and corrupted badly, and from what I've heard of these guys I'm not entirely sure they are well intended. [QUOTE=opaali;49526473]They wouldn't hurt Finnish people.[/QUOTE] We don't know that, especially given what they define as "Finnish People." The Sami have been some of the oldest inhabitants of what we now call Finland and they decidedly are not "White"; so what does a group calling for a "White Finland" think of them? For instance. [QUOTE=opaali;49526473]Hell, there hasn't been a single report of them doing anything illegal even though they have been patrolling for months.[/QUOTE] This is the big one I think. A bigot or racist doing nothing outside the law is a less immediate problem to me than a couple normal people swept up in a mob mentality. And that's why- for the time being- i am more concerned about rape crowds and Paris-like gunmen than I am of the Sons of Odin. But that certainly doesn't mean I'm not concerned.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;49526203]Why have pride in something you have absolutely no control over? [/QUOTE] Imagine how much butthurt there would be if you said that in a gay pride thread.

[QUOTE=opaali;49526512]Imagine how much butthurt there would be if you said that in a gay pride thread.[/QUOTE] The difference is that if you're german/polish/italian/turkish/w-e you aren't marginalized, harassed, discriminated against or murdered on account of who you are most of the time

[QUOTE=Turtler;49526463]Simple. A great deal of them have been proven to be Islamists (Muslim Theocrats, as opposed to plain ol' Muslims), and Terrorists. The Paris massacre was partially carried out by them. That's the thing. We don't know. Which is terrifying in its' own right. Of all the millions coming in, we don't know how many bad apples there are. Whether it's 75%, 50%, 5%, or 0.5% (and even the lower numbers still include a lot of people).[/quote] Hmm, very well. [quote]While we're on the subject of Hitler's thugs and allies, when the British accepted refugees fleeing the Fascist onslaught on mainland Europe, they were able to quite thoroughly vet who was who and weed out who they were. Including who were actual refugees, who were hanger ons, and who were outright enemy agents. We haven't been able to do that here. And people are admitting that. And frankly that needs to change. [/quote] Don't have anything to disagree with here I suppose. [quote]Eh, yes and no. Sure, tribalism, We vs. They, nationalism, and racial pride (Even when not spiraling into bigotry) have caused many issues and are counterproductive. But at the same time they have endured for a long time and not for completely illogical reasons. Say what you will about tribes, but they tend to look out for their own and help each other survive. Especially when the environment is quite savage. It's a lot easier to gather enough food to live when you don't just define kin as your immediate family, and it's a lot easier to face enemies down alone when you have other people in it. It's very crude and often cruel, but then so are a lot of the situations humans have dealt with.[/QUOTE] You're right, but I think a progressive world would have less of this mentality as we do not face the same problems as we historically have.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49526328]While you can be proud of whatever you want in my opinion, the tribalism you mention, this whole "we and they" mentality is unproductive and even harmful[/QUOTE] I don't see it as that. I see it as natural to want to protect, defend, and support your own race or culture, and when an outside force threatens the security and well being of your own people, it shouldn't be surprising that nationalism and pride with reel its head. This is evolutionary and good for our own benefit, being that if we were too naive and accepting, people will take advantage of us, and I see this as a reality of what's happening with the refugee crisis. Whats unproductive and harmful, to me at least, is shaming the people who want to protect you're ilk and embracing the people who feel indifferent to you. Keep in mind I'm not supporting this group, or any other race realist/skinhead group for that matter; however I'm not exactly a supporter of multiculturalism either, and although I live in a multicultural society and thus have to play by the rules, I find the call for racial pride and anti-immigration to be an ultimate good. Preserve your culture and promote love of it, whilst also defaming hatred and intolerance, and help the refugees, not the economic migrants. It doesn't have to be complete liberalism or complete right wing. You can find a balance, albeit difficult to do so.

[QUOTE=opaali;49526512]Imagine how much butthurt there would be if you said that in a gay pride thread.[/QUOTE] Gay pride is a reactionary movement in response to the wide-spread shaming and discriminating against homosexual people. It's not so much about being proud of being gay in the same sense as being proud of your nation, it's more about being okay with homosexuality.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;49526574] It's also really dumb to take pride in your race/culture's accomplishments, I didn't invent the telephone or pizza or some other amazing thing, why the fuck should I be proud about another dude who is my race that did those things? Those people are long dead and have literally no connection to me aside from skin color.[/QUOTE] Because it's your blood line, and the long string of history that eventually lead up to you, being in the place you're in right now surrounded by creature comforts. If it weren't for your race, fighting hard to endure its survival and culture up to this point, then you wouldn't be here, engaging in it. Also to repeat what I said its human nature to favor your home team, so that's why people do it. Also there's a lot more going on besides skin color. Its a grandiose tree stretching back ages, you're connected to a family no matter how disjointed and vague that family has become.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;49526521]The difference is that if you're german/polish/italian/turkish/w-e you aren't marginalized, harassed, discriminated against or murdered on account of who you are most of the time[/QUOTE] Yeah there totally wasn't a time in America where Italians were treated like shit because they were Italian. I guess they don't count because they are white right? Continue about how your decision on how marginalized a group of people matters in those people being proud of themselves.

[QUOTE=axelord157;49525903]No sane person will ever give a Polish person shit for going to a Polish pride convention. No sane person will ever give a German person shit for going to a German pride convention. Any sane person will give a white person shit for going to a white pride convention. Seriously, google Polish, German, then white pride and you'll get some very thought-provoking links and images with the last. All these "white pride world wide" dumbasses did a self-fulfilling prophecy of making white pride being seen as racist, militant, and tolerant of political violence. Yeah Muslim rape gangs suck donkey balls, but throwing in patrolling neo-nazis who probably have violent criminal records is a great thing to pour into the mix, right? Peaceful vigilantes is an oxymoron.[/QUOTE] First of all, you fail to grasp the common heritage of all Europeans. Secondly, you fail to grasp that many Europeans are of multi-ethnic ancestry. My ancestors came from all over Europe; I would be out of place at a Polish pride convention. All European cultures share many common traits, due to cultural exchange and common roots. Strict monogamy is an example of this; outside of European cultures, strict monogamy is a rare practice. The "white pride world wide dumbasses" are no more representative of white pride than hooligans are of soccer/football/futbol. They are a vocal minority that tend to be disproportionately represented because it's a sensitive issue that attracts readers. Muslim rape gangs suck donkey balls, no conflict there. But I would rather a group of concerned citizens keep an eye on things than not. The article specifically states that this group has not committed any violent acts, and we can safely assume that individual members probably haven't either. We can also assume they aren't neo-nazis. Note that I'm not advocating for anything here. I am, however, saying that pervasive white guilt means any expression of white identity or pride is perceived as racist, which is a double standard given society's tolerance (encouragement, even) of movements like black pride or Arab pride/nationalism.

[QUOTE=Lurr;49525800]Nationalism = Racism [B]Racial pride = Racism[/B] Cultural pride = Racism Peaceful vigilantes = Worse than Muslim rape gangs The white guilt is [I]strong[/I] here.[/QUOTE] This one in particular is racism, not necessarily the others. Race is not a biologically quantifiable concept so you're having pride in something that doesn't exist; and by extension, grouping and excluding others from it. Ethnic grouping is the only quantifiable notion of shared lineage, and even then there's a lot of blurred lines. There's nothing wrong with cultural pride but that's not what this is about. Odin =/= Finnish culture, paganism has been a dead religion for thousands of years and is not what Finland is about [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_paganism"]or ever was about[/URL], these fellas are just thinly veiled white supremacists clinging onto an idealized Germanic identity.

Many of these people aren't literally hitlers though. Even though the news have been pushing that narrative. There's many middle aged, normal people, worried about their daughters after they've been harassed in these groups. Many people are saying "let the police deal with the problems" but our government has been cutting so much from cops that seeing a patrol car is practically a miracle.

[QUOTE=Aredbomb;49525129]...But the Finnish weren't followers of Germanic Paganism. They had their own religion.[/QUOTE] Finns like to think that they were vikings at one point :v: [QUOTE=hypno-toad;49526887]This one in particular is racism, not necessarily the others. Race is not a biologically quantifiable concept so you're having pride in something that doesn't exist; and by extension, grouping and excluding others from it. Ethnic grouping is the only quantifiable notion of shared lineage, and even then there's a lot of blurred lines. There's nothing wrong with cultural pride but that's not what this is about. Odin =/= Finnish culture, paganism has been a dead religion for thousands of years and is not what Finland is about [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_paganism"]or ever was about[/URL], these fellas are just thinly veiled white supremacists clinging onto an idealized Germanic identity.[/QUOTE] No? Racism is hating other races, not taking pride in your own.

Seriously though, I haven't seen anyone else than far left get upset about these patrols.

[QUOTE=opaali;49526966]Seriously though, I haven't seen anyone else than far left get upset about these patrols.[/QUOTE] I don't like vigilantism but what can you really expect of people when EU newspapers are more and more likely to not report stories, all the while more and more horrific crimes are leaking out into public knowledge. This sort of vigilantism could be seen coming from a mile away/

[QUOTE=opaali;49526893]There's many middle aged, normal people, worried about their daughters after they've been harassed in these groups. [/QUOTE] That could be true, but either way this is a totally nonsensical response. Anybody who wants to voice serious concerns about immigration really shouldn't be doing it with a group called the "sons of odin" It's like "english defense league" or "siol nan gaidheal," it just sounds like, and most likely is a group of incoherent racial/ethnic reactionaries, even if some of them may have valid grievances. It's really not the platform for voicing those sorts of potentially valid concerns, and it's understandably worrying and will not create a meaningful or positive outcome for anybody. [QUOTE=Crimor;49526914]Racism is hating other races, not taking pride in your own.[/QUOTE] [quote=Webster: Racism]- a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race - racial prejudice or discrimination[/quote] Categorizing people based on race and perceiving them to be different, or having deterministic opinions about people based on their race, is still racism. "Race" is not a tangible thing that exists in biology, people are people. Upbringing, social conditioning and random psychological profiles are the only determining factors in anybody's particular qualities as a member of the human race. The point you outlined is one very narrow and specific component of racism.

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;49527015]That could be true, but either way this is a totally nonsensical response. Anybody who wants to voice serious concerns about immigration really shouldn't be doing it with a group called the "sons of odin" It's like "english defense league" or "siol nan gaidheal," it just sounds like, and most likely is a group of incoherent racial/ethnic reactionaries, even if some of them may have valid grievances. It's really not the platform for voicing those sorts of potentially valid concerns, and it's understandably worrying and will not create a meaningful or positive outcome for anybody. Categorizing people based on race and perceiving them to be different, or having deterministic opinions about people based on their race, is still racism. "Race" is not a tangible thing that exists in biology, people are people. Upbringing, social conditioning and random psychological profiles are the only determining factors in anybody's particular qualities as a member of the human race. The point you outlined is one very narrow and specific component of racism.[/QUOTE] S.O.O or not, does it matter what they are called? This only started because government decided to it's a great idea to keep our border wide open(there wasn't ANY control up until few months ago) and let everyone in. And once they started border control, it's EVERYONE IN, wait 3-9 months if your refugee application goes through and then if it doesn't you're not their problem. You become a illegal immigrant but since we don't have police no one cares if you're in the country or not, or what you do.

[QUOTE=opaali;49526966]Seriously though, I haven't seen anyone else than far left get upset about these patrols.[/QUOTE] I can only see this being true if you define everything left of Franco as 'far left'

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;49527219]I can only see this being true if you define everything left of Franco as 'far left'[/QUOTE] Like how 90% of the population right now is far right nazis?

[QUOTE=opaali;49527244]Like how 90% of the population right now is far right nazis?[/QUOTE] Yeah, it's the same kind of delusion. Except you had it the other way.