Anti-immigrant 'Soldiers of Odin' raise concern in Finland - Polidicks

[QUOTE=EmilioGB;49529404]No. Gay tolerance at this moment is programmed in our media; everyone knows that gays are just like straight people (except, they prefer the same gender, unlike straight people, who prefer the opposite). Yes, there may be some cases of discrimination, e.g. in my country, but generally gays are tolerated.[/QUOTE] What are you talking about? Notice how gay marriage is illegal in many states in the US, how limited LGBT rights are in Asia, Africa aswell as South America. Look at Russia and their views on homosexuality.

[QUOTE=Combine 177;49529185]No I literally mean I learn what is happening in Finland from Facepunch, I never even heard of these "Soldiers of Odin" before this.[/QUOTE] I learned their name from this thread. Only news about this I've seen is "People are worried about neighborhood watches" but that's from YLE, who constantly try to shove "IMMIGRANTS ARE NEEDED AND ARE ALL VERY GOOD EDUCATED PEOPLE!" down your throat, so I guess that's why.

The leader of the groups is a self-proclaimed national socialist :v:

Anti-immigrant or anti-uncontrolledthirdworldimmigrationintofinland?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49529421]What are you talking about? Notice how gay marriage is illegal in many states in the US, how limited LGBT rights are in Asia, Africa aswell as South America. Look at Russia and their views on homosexuality.[/QUOTE] Sorry. You are right. Thanks for claryfing this.

[QUOTE=EmilioGB;49529711]Sorry. You are right. Thanks for claryfing this.[/QUOTE] No need to apologize and no worries, now you know.

[QUOTE=axelord157;49525931]As long as they stay away from heil hitler shit, German pride is pretty benign and good.[/QUOTE] I lived in Germany and that's just not the case - they're proud of their manufactured goods, but I didn't see pride in themselves as a national 'German'. Sporting events obviously create a bubble of nationalism but that's the case for every country as observed. The only exception is in Bavaria, where they have Bavarian pride.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49529421]What are you talking about? Notice how gay marriage is illegal in many states in the US, how limited LGBT rights are in Asia, Africa aswell as South America. Look at Russia and their views on homosexuality.[/QUOTE] How ignorant. Same-sex marriage in the United States has been legal since last June.

[QUOTE=Stolons;49530053]How ignorant. Same-sex marriage in the United States has been legal since last June.[/QUOTE] Ahh, my bad then.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49529421]What are you talking about? Notice how gay marriage is illegal in many states in the US, how limited LGBT rights are in Asia, Africa aswell as South America. Look at Russia and their views on homosexuality.[/QUOTE] Do realize though, that most of those refugees they are protesting against have an even more abyssal view on what are considered basic human rights in Europa, including absolutely horrid views on LGBT rights and women rights.

[QUOTE=Swebonny;49529605]The leader of the groups is a self-proclaimed national socialist :v:[/QUOTE] Why did you say "self-proclaimed"? Peoples political beliefs are always self-proclaimed, you don't need a nazi license to be a nazi

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;49530345]Why did you say "self-proclaimed"? Peoples political beliefs are always self-proclaimed, you don't need a nazi license to be a nazi[/QUOTE] No they aren't. People rarely call themselves neoconservatives or neoliberals, but people are often told they are one by other people, for example.

[QUOTE=Jordax;49530256]Do realize though, that most of those refugees they are protesting against have an even more abyssal view on what are considered basic human rights in Europa, including absolutely horrid views on LGBT rights and women rights.[/QUOTE] According to.... you?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49530428]According to.... you?[/QUOTE] What are you getting at? Most Muslims are extremely conservative when it comes to issues of gay rights and women rights. That should just be obvious. [url]http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/[/url]

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49530428]According to.... you?[/QUOTE] Well if anything, they are used to a different kind of life. Different laws, and social/cultural norms. While some of them assimilate their new surrounding just fine or don't mind it, it can be quite a shock to some. Like a few days in the year dedicated to extensive drinking outdoors and drug use, by men and women alike, adults and young adults. Welcome to Finland. I don't think there are many studies that asks refugees these type of questions though, I.E. women's rights, etc. So pretty hard to say. I think most of them just want to live peacefully, and moderately.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;49530428]According to.... you?[/QUOTE] According to this: [URL="http://hdr.undp.org/en/composite/GII"]http://hdr.undp.org/en/composite/GII[/URL] UN might be a joke nowdays but they are great at collecting data and statistics.

[QUOTE=maeZtro;49528366]I think what he means is that it is perfectly possible to be a national socialist and not be a racist bigot. National socialism is an ideology on how to govern a state, just because the last big national socialist party carried out a genocide against jews and tried to take over the world doesn't mean that there can't be national socialist that don't hold such beliefs. Don't get me wrong, national socialism is a terrible way of governing but it's true that the word has become tainted by the national socialists in Germany.[/QUOTE] It is absolutely impossible to be a National-Socialist and not be racist. Seriously. One of the key goddamn tenets of National Socialism is the racial superiority of the Übermenschen and the desire for a homogenous ethnic state where the master race exploits inferior races for their own ends. It certainly isn't just an ideology of 'how to govern a state' either. It's a totalising ideology which desires the subservience of all members to the state in all aspects of their life, where every action made by a member should be in service of the all powerful state. There literally can't be a National Socialist that doesn't hold such beliefs. They wouldn't be a National Socialist if they didn't. Not only that. The idea that National-Socialism was tainted by the German Nazis is downright unbelievable. There was no 'good old times' for National Socialism. It cannot be 'tainted'. It was quite literally the most unbelievably evil, manipulative and irrational ideology there is from day one.

I take "National Socialist" as a term by itself to be a neutral that prioritizes the well being of it's country first, the well being of it's average citizens second, and the well being of any third parties last. It's seperate from a capitalist society in that it would shut down any business practices that are bad for the country, such as outsourcing labor to china, that we do constantly at the expense of our own working class. National Socialism as a concept is pretty alright IMO, as long as they don't, you know, genocide a bunch of people or anything. Like, Germany as a country did EXTREMELY well for itself up until they started losing the war, ethics and morals put aside. edit: I get that you inherently dislike that because then they'd have a view point that denies refugees/immigration unless they can actually provide something in return for citizenship/entry, but honestly taking in all the poor and disadvantaged onto yourselves hurts your own people and doesn't actually fix anything so it's not much worse than what the left is doing right now to be honest.

haha yeah national socialism as a concept is a-ok if you ignore: The ingrained racism, the totalitarian control of citizens, its slave economy, the bloodthirsty desire for total war, the eventual genocide of inferior races, the closing off of international trade, the drop in living standards for the working class, the lack of individualism and rampant corruption! Unbelievable.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;49532343]It is absolutely impossible to be a National-Socialist and not be racist. Seriously.[/QUOTE] As someone whose family suffered under the Moose and who believes National Socialism to be heinously evil, I'm not entirely sure. While people tend to know jack all about it now, there have been a few Fascist and National Socialist movements that have not in fact been Racist (even if they have still been horrendously evil and unpleasant in many other ways). Brazil in the 1930's pretty much saw all of them in it. Ditto Paraguay. In large part because the population- and society- have been so thoroughly mixed. I would say that National Socialism is more or less what it says on the tin; the idea of the National/folk collective and its' superiority vis a vis all others is key. While that National Collective can in fact be defined Racially or closely (as Hitler certainly did, ditto the German Volkish "thinkers"), it's not necessarily so. But the glorification of the elite Collective, the one leader of it, and their superiority to everything else is definitely there. As is the murderous approach to liberties- individual or otherwise- and dissent. [QUOTE=Lonestriper;49532343]It's a totalising ideology which desires the subservience of all members to the state in all aspects of their life, where every action made by a member should be in service of the all powerful state. [/QUOTE] Most definitely. But as much as I hate to say it, I do think that there are a lot of totalising ideologies that are not Fascism or National Socialism. Qin Legalism, plenty of Absolute Monarchies, and Good old fashioned Marxist-Leninism come to mind. To use the example of mixed race societies, Paraguay both in the mid 20th century and the 19th was governed by a state that fits that description (totalising ideology, total subservience from all subjects in all aspects, total service to an all powerful state). In the earlier instance it resulted in the regime launching a war that made the WWII Japanese look sane and killed off the majority of the population. But even in the more sedate times (Under Dr. Francia before the Lopez dynasty took over) it was still tyrannical and suffocating to a degree that is comparable to North Korea. But that didn't make Francia's Paraguay any less mixed race, or any more Fascist/National Socialist. There literally can't be a National Socialist that doesn't hold such beliefs. They wouldn't be a National Socialist if they didn't. [QUOTE=Lonestriper;49532343]Not only that. The idea that National-Socialism was tainted by the German Nazis is downright unbelievable. There was no 'good old times' for National Socialism. It cannot be 'tainted'. It was quite literally the most unbelievably evil, manipulative and irrational ideology there is from day one.[/QUOTE] Agreed indeed. Absolutely.

Do you have any proof that just because the first major instance of it turned into a major fuck up, that it couldn't be pulled off without those vices? I don't see it as strictly as you do, I view it more towards the "socialist" side, where in the government's job would be to make sure that enterprises serve the best interests of the country and the people therein. Our capitalist societies, if left unregulated, would be an awful dog-eats-dog world kind of deal, obviously that isn't exactly how it turned out. I see nothing wrong with a country wanting it's corporate powerhouses to strengthen said country first economically. I don't see how that's mutually tied to racism, total control of it's citizens, a slave economy, war, genocide, or inferior conditions for it's working class. Just like any other country it would interfere with and regulate business, primarily and foremost. Edit: I don't think we're on the same page in terms of the meaning of national socialist, I just see it as a broad interpretation of a certain political system that prioritizes the needs of the country over those of the individual/business. Honestly I'm probably understanding or using the term incorrectly.

[QUOTE=Turtler;49532461]As someone whose family suffered under the Moose and who believes National Socialism to be heinously evil, I'm not entirely sure. While people tend to know jack all about it now, there have been a few Fascist and National Socialist movements that have not in fact been Racist (even if they have still been horrendously evil and unpleasant in many other ways). Brazil in the 1930's pretty much saw all of them in it. Ditto Paraguay. In large part because the population- and society- have been so thoroughly mixed. I would say that National Socialism is more or less what it says on the tin; the idea of the National/folk collective and its' superiority vis a vis all others is key. While that National Collective can in fact be defined Racially or closely (as Hitler certainly did, ditto the German Volkish "thinkers"), it's not necessarily so. But the glorification of the elite Collective, the one leader of it, and their superiority to everything else is definitely there. As is the murderous approach to liberties- individual or otherwise- and dissent.[/QUOTE] National Socialism is a Fascist movement which incorporates scientific racism as a key tenet. This makes National-Socialism inherently racist. Fascism, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily have a racial component. I think what you describe as non-racist Fascist/National-Socialist movements should be considered 'Fascist', not 'National Socialist'. Due in part to the key racial tenets of National Socialism. [editline]15th January 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=soulharvester;49532482]Edit: I don't think we're on the same page in terms of the meaning of national socialist, I just see it as a broad interpretation of a certain political system that prioritizes the needs of the country over those of the individual/business.[/QUOTE] National Socialism has a very specific meaning. Which is, as you may have guessed, the ideology of Hitler's Germany. Perhaps you mean socialist nationalism, as described in [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_nationalism?[/url]

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;49532343]It is absolutely impossible to be a National-Socialist and not be racist. Seriously. One of the key goddamn tenets of National Socialism is the racial superiority of the Übermenschen and the desire for a homogenous ethnic state where the master race exploits inferior races for their own ends. It certainly isn't just an ideology of 'how to govern a state' either. It's a totalising ideology which desires the subservience of all members to the state in all aspects of their life, where every action made by a member should be in service of the all powerful state. There literally can't be a National Socialist that doesn't hold such beliefs. They wouldn't be a National Socialist if they didn't. Not only that. The idea that National-Socialism was tainted by the German Nazis is downright unbelievable. There was no 'good old times' for National Socialism. It cannot be 'tainted'. It was quite literally the most unbelievably evil, manipulative and irrational ideology there is from day one.[/QUOTE] No, those are the tenents of the national socialist party. The name itself is simply comprised by "nationalism" and "socialism". In other words, national socialism is really what people today call left wing nationalism. [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_nationalism"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_nationalism[/URL] The national socialist party took the idea of left wing nationalism and called themselves national socialists, but at the same time they changed it and added their own ideas. I've heard somwhere that Hitler even confessed to a close confidant that their manifest was based on the works of Marx. Anyhow, the national socialist party might have coined the phrase "national socialist" but that doesn't take away the meaning of the words "socialist" and "nationalist" so it is certainly possible that edgy people want to call themselves national socialist and not be racist bigots. [editline]15th January 2016[/editline] Lol, just noticed that you linked the same stuff in the post above.

[QUOTE=axelord157;49525331]You can care about your own race without being a racist. I care a lot about the plight of black people here and abroad, but I don't do around screaming "fuck whitey" and what not because being a racist tends to make more problems than it solves. Them vs Us breeds hate, seperation, and paranoia.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry but you're using your brain and logic and that's widely unacceptable... especially here at Facepunch. I fully support this mode of thinking and I have to say I appreciate you.

[QUOTE=Archonos 2;49535680]I'm sorry but you're using your brain and logic and that's widely unacceptable... especially here at Facepunch. I fully support this mode of thinking and I have to say I appreciate you.[/QUOTE] Yeah because that opinion is certinally a minority here on FP lol

I'm not sure why we don't just mix & match to the point where there are no distinct human races left anymore. Problem fucking solved.

[QUOTE=Bat-shit;49536107]I'm not sure why we don't just mix & match to the point where there are no distinct human races left anymore. Problem fucking solved.[/QUOTE] A problem solved, yet numerous other problems created. Transplants(e.g. bone marrow) are impossible then.

[QUOTE=Bat-shit;49536107]I'm not sure why we don't just mix & match to the point where there are no distinct human races left anymore. Problem fucking solved.[/QUOTE] Dunno man, I like my own people. And it's not problem with race or color but fucking backwards view/culture

[QUOTE=Bat-shit;49536107]I'm not sure why we don't just mix & match to the point where there are no distinct human races left anymore. Problem fucking solved.[/QUOTE] I entirely disagree with this. I like it that people look different and act different based on where they come from. I like it that people have diverse cultures and that they occasionally mix, while also conserving their traditions and cultural identity. I like it that there's so much variety in the human species. I wish everyone could be different and accept eachother in spite, or maybe because of their differences. It won't be easy, but I think we can reach that point, eventually.

[QUOTE=Wolfos;49546367]I entirely disagree with this. I like it that people look different and act different based on where they come from. I like it that people have diverse cultures and that they occasionally mix, while also conserving their traditions and cultural identity. I like it that there's so much variety in the human species. I wish everyone could be different and accept eachother in spite, or maybe because of their differences. It won't be easy, but I think we can reach that point, eventually.[/QUOTE] Honestly, I think it's going to take a major catastrophe to get us to that point where the superficial shit doesn't matter anymore. Climate change will hopefully devastate us globally to a point where we're forced to redevelop and rethink in such a way that all that will matter is survival; the loss of life and sustainability will have to be so tremendous that religious, racial/ethnic, political, class, and general cultural differences (etc.) won't matter in significant ways anymore. I used to joke with a neo-Nazi acquaintance of mine, [i]"So if you were drowning in the middle of a lake, and some white-looking guy came out in a boat to help you, would you ask him, 'Hey-- you aren't a Jew by chance, are you?'"[/i] When you put people under enough pressure and make them suffer badly enough, they'll start to come together. They'll have to in order to survive. Or they'll die. It's that simple. New divisions can be created if people try and remain too individualistic, that's true, but general divisions will be resolved overall. The will to live matters to most people more in the end than what religion, race, etc. they are. Or how much money they had beforehand, or what kind of car they drove, what kind of house they lived in, etc. We've observed this before in human history, and it does indeed show that life's bullshit goes out the window when trouble hits; all that matters then is "what are your skills, and how can we foster mutual cooperation so as to combine our skills in order to build security and sustainability that will ensure we'll both survive together better than we would otherwise on our own".