Woman shot in the head after knocking on door and asking for help - Polidicks

[QUOTE=BFG9000;42804374]Well what do you think should happen? Should all the minorities just bow to the party in power?[/QUOTE] the opposite, really. i think there needs to be more political diversity and people should stop glorifying center policy and start trying to really hit hard on the decisions that affect them.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42804493]the opposite, really. i think there needs to be more political diversity and people should stop glorifying center policy and start trying to really hit hard on the decisions that affect them.[/QUOTE] With central policy, you sort-of satisfy most people/everyone. With extremism, you totally satisfy some and totally piss of everyone else. That's not great.

[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;42804527]With central policy, you sort-of satisfy most people/everyone. With extremism, you totally satisfy some and totally piss of everyone else. That's not great.[/QUOTE] no you create a little box where all acceptable politics gets to be put which enforces a status quo that hardly changes. would you say the "extremists" like feminists, labor activists, civil rights activists, and others accomplished things that were "not great" through their militancy?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42804591]no you create a little box where all acceptable politics gets to be put which enforces a status quo that hardly changes. would you say the "extremists" like feminists, labor activists, civil rights activists, and others accomplished things that were "not great" through their militancy?[/QUOTE] Insofar as I'm aware, those groups achieved their goals by changing public opinion, not by seizing control of governmental policy.

[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;42804630]Insofar as I'm aware, those groups achieved their goals by changing public opinion, not by seizing control of governmental policy.[/QUOTE] not really they actually seized control of governmental policy by rebelling and causing so much of a stability problem that the government had to placate their interests somehow. [editline]9th November 2013[/editline] public opinion doesn't mean shit in a society where consent is manufactured by the government and media.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42804652]not really they actually seized control of governmental policy by rebelling and causing so much of a stability problem that the government had to placate their interests somehow.[/QUOTE] Well then that's still not the same as pretending to be a democracy and then catering specifically to those groups that will alienate the majority of the electorate.

[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;42804666]Well then that's still not the same as pretending to be a democracy and then catering specifically to those groups that will alienate the majority of the electorate.[/QUOTE] we wouldn't need extremist movements if we didn't have a system of politics where we boxed every acceptable idea into the center and called everyone else extremists.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42804742]we wouldn't need extremist movements if we didn't have a system of politics where we boxed every acceptable idea into the center and called everyone else extremists.[/QUOTE] Do you actually not understand that the centre is thusly named because that's where the average person sits? The crazies on both sides cancel each other out. If you only listen to the people on either side of the spectrum, you alienate the people on the opposite side (obviously) and EVERYONE in the middle. You end up with what's basically an oligarchy.

isn't that what centrism is? Listening to the fringe ends and balancing it out? Or do you only advocate finding the center of the center

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42804820]isn't that what centrism is? Listening to the fringe ends and balancing it out? Or do you only advocate finding the center of the center[/QUOTE] I advocate listening to the majority of people, and educating them suitably.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42804820]isn't that what centrism is? Listening to the fringe ends and balancing it out? Or do you only advocate finding the center of the center[/QUOTE] centrism is supposedly supposed to do that but in the end it creates an oligarchy that enforces a status quo and labels alternative viewpoints as fringe and extremist, equating them all with each other(a marxist is the same as an anarchist is the same as a fascist is the same as a libertarian).

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42804861]centrism is supposedly supposed to do that but in the end it creates an oligarchy that enforces a status quo and labels alternative viewpoints as fringe and extremist, equating them all with each other(a marxist is the same as an anarchist is the same as a fascist is the same as a libertarian).[/QUOTE] I'm a fan of gradualism. Take what works from those fringe movements and adopt them in slow and gradual steps. Society sees improvement and the nutters don't get into power. Could you imagine if the USA implemented an NHS tomorrow or banned handguns, there would be uproar. We cannot expect the Americans to jump from X to Z, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of Y until they suddenly awake to find they have Z.

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[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42804922]I'm a fan of gradualism. Take what works from those fringe movements and adopt them in slow and gradual steps. Society sees improvement and the nutters don't get into power.[/QUOTE] we still don't have socialism so until that point comes i'm pretty sure gradualism is just fantasy.

[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;42804855]I advocate listening to the majority of people, and educating them suitably.[/QUOTE] Even the founding fathers didn't want pure majority rule though [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority[/url]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42804938]we still don't have socialism so until that point comes i'm pretty sure gradualism is just fantasy.[/QUOTE] Just compare America now to America 150 years ago. It's not socialist, but there have been major improvements in child welfare, equality of the sexes, infrastructure, working conditions, safety regulations, fire departments, the list goes on.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42804983]Just compare America now to America 150 years ago. It's not socialist, but there have been major improvements in child welfare, equality of the sexes, infrastructure, working conditions, safety regulations, fire departments, the list goes on.[/QUOTE] not in comparison to countries with stronger radical labor movements, and we have actually fallen backwards in the last 50 years in regards to pay and working hours.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42804947]Even the founding fathers didn't want pure majority rule though [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority[/URL][/QUOTE] What the founding fathers did or didn't want is water of a duck's back to me. Not a week goes by without the governmental system they set up making me sigh in disdain. I acknowledge that there's issues with pure majority rule, but I don't think the solution is to listen purely to extremists.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42804986]not in comparison to countries with stronger radical labor movements, and we have actually fallen backwards in the last 50 years in regards to pay and working hours.[/QUOTE] Depends on "radical". Scandinavia is not what I would call "radical", especially given that they weren't too keen of the Communists.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42805035]Depends on "radical". Scandinavia is not what I would call "radical", especially given that they weren't too keen of the Communists.[/QUOTE] a radical labor movement does not mean communist. the swedish had a very radical labor movement that eventually came to dominate the politics of sweden.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42804922]I'm a fan of gradualism. Take what works from those fringe movements and adopt them in slow and gradual steps. Society sees improvement and the nutters don't get into power. Could you imagine if the USA implemented an NHS tomorrow or banned handguns, there would be uproar. We cannot expect the Americans to jump from X to Z, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of Y until they suddenly awake to find they have Z.[/QUOTE] That's scary and subvertive though D:

[QUOTE=BFG9000;42805553]That's scary and subvertive though D:[/QUOTE] It is how politics happens. Slow and gradual change, vaguely leftwards. Once considered extreme things become normal, whilst normal things become extreme. Animal baiting and public executions used to be normal, and now they are viewed as being done by savages.

I mean, this right is written in the Constitution, which means that if we are gradually banned from owning firearms, we've effectively turned a blind eye to one of the big amendments of the constitution. Wouldn't this enable politicians to pull that shit on other parts of the document? How do we draw the line?

[QUOTE=BFG9000;42805575]I mean, this right is written in the Constitution, which means that if we are gradually banned from owning firearms, we've effectively turned a blind eye to one of the big amendments of the constitution. Wouldn't this enable politicians to pull that shit on other parts of the document? How do we draw the line?[/QUOTE] Through the consent of the masses. Just look at income tax. Even today you still have idiots banging on about income tax being "unconstitutional". The 16th amendment was added, and now the IRS can raise the cash the state needs.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42805590]Through the consent of the masses. Just look at income tax. Even today you still have idiots banging on about income tax being "unconstitutional". The 16th amendment was added, and now the IRS can raise the cash the state needs.[/QUOTE] Part of the point of amendments, is that they're supposed to be something that can't change. The rights listed in the constitution are meant to be inalieble rights. Not things that can just be taken away just because the majority disagrees with it.

[QUOTE=darkrei9n;42805748]Part of the point of amendments, is that they're supposed to be something that can't change. The rights listed in the constitution are meant to be inalieble rights. Not things that can just be taken away just because the majority disagrees with it.[/QUOTE] The constitution has been modified a number of times since its inception, and one amendment has already nullified an older one.

[QUOTE=darkrei9n;42805748]Part of the point of amendments, is that they're supposed to be something that can't change. The rights listed in the constitution are meant to be inalieble rights. Not things that can just be taken away just because the majority disagrees with it.[/QUOTE] there are a few problems with this interpretation that make it wrong. 1) the constitution can be amended by congress 2) the 5th amendment states clearly that your rights are not inalienable 3) rights only apply to citizens so they are obviously not inalienable 4) constitution is a structure for how government functions which means it NEEDS to be changed otherwise government is using an outdated model for centuries

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42805759]The constitution has been modified a number of times since its inception, and one amendment has already nullified an older one.[/QUOTE] Probition is a whole different story. And the constitution has never been modified to remove rights. To remove a right afforded by the constitution yoh would be violating the core tenets of the document itself.

And gradualism is precisely why gun lobby groups oppose ANY form of legislation, because they recognize it is part of a larger scheme to slowly erode the gun rights of a nation away, and this is a demonstrable thing that's happened in more countries than just the US. Canada is one of the only countries to have reversed gun legislation.

[QUOTE=darkrei9n;42805781]Probition is a whole different story. And the constitution has never been modified to remove rights. To remove a right afforded by the constitution yoh would be violating the core tenets of the document itself.[/QUOTE] You are extrapolating to the future. You have no idea if the constitution will be modified in such a way. Legally it can happen. [editline]9th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=DaCommie1;42805783]And gradualism is precisely why gun lobby groups oppose ANY form of legislation, because they recognize it is part of a larger scheme to slowly erode the gun rights of a nation away, and this is a demonstrable thing that's happened in more countries than just the US. Canada is one of the only countries to have reversed gun legislation.[/QUOTE] What about beneficial legislation?