Woman shot in the head after knocking on door and asking for help - Polidicks

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42860766]Did you know I survived a home invasion where a good friend was shot and killed right in front of me with an illegally obtained firearm and there was nothing I could do about it because I had no cell phone to call the police? Did you know I've never even seen a house fire up close? So in my experience...home invasions have been a bigger part of my life then house fires. Go ahead and tell me why else you think you should have a say in what I use to protect myself.[/QUOTE] anecdotes are all you have Fires still kill more people in their own home yet no one really cares about proper fire saftey because its not as sexy or hero fantasy enough as shooting boogiemen that break into homes. [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;42860962]so wats an essential liberty?[/QUOTE] if private firearms were an essential part of liberty how come countries ranking highest in civil liberties don't have them

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42860962]so owning a gun is not a right, it is a privilege. that means it can and should be taken if it proves to benefit the safety of the society. we view rights as being default no matter what benefit restriction provides, but privileges get no such treatment. so wats an essential liberty?[/QUOTE] All rights are privileges because they are given to us and can be taken away from us by certain people. That does not make it right to take that privilege away because liberties are what makes us more than birds in cages. What many miss when discussing gun control is that it would not necessarily bring less violence along with the liberties, considering the fact that guns are used far more widely for defensive purposes than offensive, which you can read about in nearly every study made on the topic. If you're curious and want to read up on it, [url=http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18319&page=]this here is one example[/url], written and conducted on Obama's order earlier this year. It says, among other things: [I]"Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008."[/I], if you can't be bothered to read it all yourself. I don't see the point of not only infringing upon the rights, if we should call them that, of the people and at the same time putting all of them at risk when it comes to those that do not care for laws in the first place.

[QUOTE=Fhux;42861434][I]"Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008."[/I], if you can't be bothered to read it all yourself.[/QUOTE] But how many are defending against someone else with a firearm? Isn't it the god damn NRA slogan that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun? Also you can't say "used far more widely for defensive" then quote something that says "used almost as much defensively"

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42861363]anecdotes are all you have Fires still kill more people in their own home yet no one really cares about proper fire saftey because its not as sexy or hero fantasy enough as shooting boogiemen that break into homes. [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] [/QUOTE] Um, no, Mr. Fucking-Rocket-Scientist. I have life experience on the issue. Me and 5 of my friends have emotionally and physically suffered at the hands of this issue. So tell me, You're really going to ban all guns because house fires present a higher risk than home break-ins? This is your solution to the realistic, evident danger of violent home break-ins? Your mind is in fucking la-la land as usual. Say hi to the teletubbies for me.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42861455]But how many are defending against someone else with a firearm? Isn't it the god damn NRA slogan that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun? Also you can't say "used far more widely for defensive" then quote something that says "used almost as much defensively"[/QUOTE] The NRA slogan, while true, is obviously not the only situation where a firearm is a valid way out of it. Why should you only ever use the tools you have at your disposal when who you're faced with has the same tools? What you're threatened with, be it a gun, a knife or a spoon and words, doesn't make much of a difference if the same thing is on the line, does it? And I'll gladly admit that I should have worded my part better, but if you read it again I'm sure you can see that it says "defensive gun uses by victims are [I]at least[/I] as common as offensive uses by criminals", not "almost".

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42861471]This is your solution to the realistic, evident danger of violent home break-ins?[/QUOTE] but it isn't realistic or evident. you were just very very unlucky. it isn't a common occurrence at all i don't care if i'm offending you because your mate died or whatever, you can't just keep spouting anecdotal evidence and telling the person who's giving you statistically correct data that he's lives in "la-la land" if that's la-la land then count me in cos i'd rather not live in whatever fucked up world you live in

Id love to see the day gun are banned and police are running around waving batons at a robber armed to the teeth.

[QUOTE=ultra_bright;42861719]Id love to see the day gun are banned and police are running around waving batons at a robber armed to the teeth.[/QUOTE] yeh this happens in the uk basically everyday we just let criminals shoot us all the time and the police just tut and sigh [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] such is life without my human right to own an assault rifle

I dont think its right that police can defend themselves with firearms while ordinary citizens cant even with the right training. -Canada

i trust the long-established and well-regarded law enforcement system to train a specific set of highly-skilled and trustworthy officers to carry firearms that are used only when absolutely necessary (ie. very very rarely) because i'm not a conspiracy theorist nutjob who operates purely on grassroots principles -uk

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;42861732]yeh this happens in the uk basically everyday we just let criminals shoot us all the time and the police just tut and sigh [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] such is life without my human right to own an assault rifle[/QUOTE] From what Ive heard a lot of the police in the uk dont carry guns, so I guess if you're getting mugged by a guy with one you're shit out of luck.

[QUOTE=ultra_bright;42861771]From what Ive heard a lot of the police in the uk dont carry guns, so I guess if you're getting mugged by a guy with one you're shit out of luck.[/QUOTE] yeh i know right? it's like you just give over your wallet with a £10 note in it and your bankcard that you can cancel immediately and your shitty smartphone that is worth less than £400 and probably has insurance anyway and no one dies in the ordeal. mental isn't it! [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] but that doesn't matter anyway cos basically no one ever is robbed with a firearm lmao

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;42861790]yeh i know right? it's like you just give over your wallet with a £10 note in it and your bankcard that you can cancel immediately and your shitty smartphone that is worth less than £400 and probably has insurance anyway and no one dies in the ordeal. mental isn't it! [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] but that doesn't matter anyway cos basically no one ever is robbed with a firearm lmao[/QUOTE] I really hope you get mugged one day, then come back and tell me its no big deal.

[QUOTE=ultra_bright;42861801]I really hope you get mugged one day, then come back and tell me its no big deal.[/QUOTE] it is a big deal. it makes you feel scared and makes you unsure of yourself and the streets you normally feel so safe in. that's a big deal do you know what's a bigger deal? a bigger deal is shooting a guy dead because you were about to get your phone robbed. do you know which i'd rather have on me my whole life? do you know which would hang over me longer? jesus christ the vigilante/self-defence fantasies that go on here are sickening

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;42861809]it is a big deal. it makes you feel scared and makes you unsure of yourself and the streets you normally feel so safe in. that's a big deal do you know what's a bigger deal? a bigger deal is shooting a guy dead because you were about to get your phone robbed. do you know which i'd rather have on me my whole life? do you know which would hang over me longer? jesus christ the vigilante/self-defence fantasies that go on here are sickening[/QUOTE] Dont reply to my posts if you dont bother to read them, I said if you get mugged by a guy with a knife or a gun. As in your life is put in mortal danger. Its not about 'street justice' as you were implying.

what i inferred from your post is that we've got it rubbish in the uk because we are "shit out of luck" if we get mugged by someone with a gun. from that i inferred that you'd prefer to be able to carry a gun and shoot someone who is trying to mug you if i'm wrong in that sorry for misinterpreting your post but i think that is a fucked up way to think about the loss of personal property and some short-term minor psychological effects

No thats not what I meant at all. If you want to argue with me about it add me on steam and pm me in a few hours. I meant that a threat towards you should be met with equal force, so a guy pulling a gun on you should have the same comming to him. A basic form of self defence.

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;42861809]it is a big deal. it makes you feel scared and makes you unsure of yourself and the streets you normally feel so safe in. that's a big deal do you know what's a bigger deal? a bigger deal is shooting a guy dead because you were about to get your phone robbed. do you know which i'd rather have on me my whole life? do you know which would hang over me longer? jesus christ the vigilante/self-defence fantasies that go on here are sickening[/QUOTE] Just so you know, pointing toward the UK, which does not really have much in common with the US, is not an especially good sense of how countries work. If that was the case, I might as well say that the low homicide rates of Switzerland, a country with obligatory gun ownership, proves the opposite of what you're saying. Different countries work in different ways, and what's best for you does not have to be best for them. And protecting yourself with a gun does not mean pulling the trigger and killing the criminal by the way.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42861363]anecdotes are all you have Fires still kill more people in their own home yet no one really cares about proper fire saftey because its not as sexy or hero fantasy enough as shooting boogiemen that break into homes. [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] if private firearms were an essential part of liberty how come countries ranking highest in civil liberties don't have them[/QUOTE] I'd like to point out something that really bugs me here, not just in your argument but in pretty much every argument I've ever seen about owning a gun for self-defense. [B]No[/B] sane person fantasizes about shooting someone. I don't own a gun for self-defense because I want to use it, I get it because I want to defend myself if it becomes necessary - and [I]I never want to be in a life-or-death situation.[/I] Ever. I don't think anyone legitimately does because it's scary fucking business. Is it unlikely? I sure as hell hope so, but letting people have a gun for self-defense isn't gonna magically boost crime rates. Let's just be clear on this: I'm not attacking you for your beliefs, even though they do conflict with mine.

[QUOTE=Fhux;42862055]And protecting yourself with a gun does not mean pulling the trigger and killing the criminal by the way.[/QUOTE] Yet people always say you should only point your weapon at someone if you intent to shooting them lethally.

[QUOTE=Fhux;42862055]Just so you know, pointing toward the UK, which does not really have much in common with the US, is not an especially good sense of how countries work[/QUOTE] hey hey i didn't start that

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42861471]Um, no, Mr. Fucking-Rocket-Scientist. I have life experience on the issue. Me and 5 of my friends have emotionally and physically suffered at the hands of this issue. So tell me, You're really going to ban all guns because house fires present a higher risk than home break-ins? This is your solution to the realistic, evident danger of violent home break-ins? Your mind is in fucking la-la land as usual. Say hi to the teletubbies for me.[/QUOTE] lmao your emotional hysterics are no way to base an argument

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42861363] if private firearms were an essential part of liberty how come countries ranking highest in civil liberties don't have them[/QUOTE] so wats an essential liberty? you are dancing around the question but not answering it.

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;42861770]i trust the long-established and well-regarded law enforcement system to train a specific set of highly-skilled and trustworthy officers to carry firearms that are used only when absolutely necessary (ie. very very rarely) because i'm not a conspiracy theorist nutjob who operates purely on grassroots principles -uk[/QUOTE] So basically if I observe the fact that a home break in occurs in the US every 15.4 seconds ([url]http://www.crimedoctor.com/home.htm[/url]), I'm a conspiracy theorist and a nutjob? Your logic is literally headache inducing. [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=NoDachi;42863599]lmao your emotional hysterics are no way to base an argument[/QUOTE] I can present my argument however I please when the logic of the opposition is again....literally retarded in their thinking that just because the UK or another country does crime a certain way..means that's how things roll in the US. I guarantee if you knew how things really were in some parts of the U.S., you would know why I'm blatantly insulting your logic. [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;42861790] [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] but that doesn't matter anyway cos basically no one ever is robbed with a firearm lmao[/QUOTE] ...in the [b]UK[/b] That is NOT a valid argument towards banning guns in the U.S. [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;42845645]This is an abused and overused quote.[/QUOTE] ...only because it doesn't fit your pea brained agenda. [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;42861667]but it isn't realistic or evident. you were just very very unlucky. it isn't a common occurrence at all i don't care if i'm offending you because your mate died or whatever, you can't just keep spouting anecdotal evidence and telling the person who's giving you statistically correct data that he's lives in "la-la land" if that's la-la land then count me in cos i'd rather not live in whatever fucked up world you live in[/QUOTE] And I'm telling you, you live in fucking la-la land..not to mention you just stated you'd be totally willing to remain in la-la land as oppossed to living in reality. To say that home break-ins are a rare occurrence is completely fucking delusional.. Again, home break ins occur an average of every 15 seconds in the US. I feel like you'd be the guy that joins the army and expects to be taught how to bake a cake instead of shoot a rifle. Nothing personal.

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42867190]I can present my argument however I please when the logic of the opposition is again....literally retarded in their thinking that just because the UK or another country does crime a certain way..means that's how things roll in the US. I guarantee if you knew how things really were in some parts of the U.S., you would know why I'm blatantly insulting your logic.[/QUOTE] But i get my opinions from studies carried out on america by americans though... I hope you don't own a gun you seen rather emotionally unstable

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42867714]But i get my opinions from studies carried out on america by americans though... I hope you don't own a gun you seen rather emotionally unstable[/QUOTE] I get my opinions through life experience...that doesn't seem to be enough for you because it's not an official statistic. I own several. Have owned several since I was a child. And yes, I open carry my Sig Sauer German State Police trade-in P6, or my Beretta 92FS whenever I leave my house. Go ahead and cry about it. When you're getting stomped the fuck out in some New Mexico alleyway, I WILL be there to help you, even if I lose my life in the process. What the fuck is emotionally unstable for you, anyway? Anyone that owns a firearm and has an opposing opinion? Anyone that says fuck a lot on the internet? As the great Hexpunk likes to say on a daily basis...get a fucking grip.

It figures that if a thread on some fucking tragedy has lasted this many pages, at the end you're bound to find a couple of idiots having an internet fight.

[QUOTE=archangel125;42869586]It figures that if a thread on some fucking tragedy has lasted this many pages, at the end you're bound to find a couple of idiots having an internet fight.[/QUOTE] Some things are just worth fighting for.

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42869558]I get my opinions through life experience...that doesn't seem to be enough for you because it's not an official statistic. I own several. Have owned several since I was a child. And yes, I open carry my Sig Sauer German State Police trade in P6 whenever I leave my house. Go ahead and cry about it. I'd still be there for you when the Police weren't. What the fuck is emotionally unstable for you, anyway? Anyone that owns a firearm and has an opposing opinion? Anyone that says fuck a lot on the internet? As the great Hexpunk likes to say on a daily basis...get a fucking grip.[/QUOTE] Anecdotes are not evidence, both because they aren't necessarily representative of the majority and because there's no way to actually verify them. Okay, [I]you[/I] went through some shit. You have my sympathy, but the way to approach legislation is not with tears running down your face. You're the wrong person to be making these decisions for exactly the same reason that victims aren't on the jury of trials. You're biased. You'll ignore actual facts and studies because of a million to one event that just happened to have happened to you and destroyed your entire ability to be impartial. You're not making friends by repeatedly pretending that what you went through is actually relevant to the discussion at hand; you're just drawing out the thread even more and further polarising the two opinions.

I postulate neither anecdotes nor statistics count as evidence of anything because both are missing important facets of the big picture.