Woman shot in the head after knocking on door and asking for help - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;42869614]Anecdotes are not evidence, both because they aren't necessarily representative of the majority and because there's no way to actually verify them. Okay, [I]you[/I] went through some shit. You have my sympathy, but the way to approach legislation is not with tears running down your face. You're the wrong person to be making these decisions for exactly the same reason that victims aren't on the jury of trials. You're biased. You'll ignore actual facts and studies because of a million to one event that just happened to have happened to you and destroyed your entire ability to be impartial. You're not making friends by repeatedly pretending that what you went through is actually relevant to the discussion at hand; you're just drawing out the thread even more and further polarising the two opinions.[/QUOTE] I'm not trying to make decisions for other people, nor push for legislation because of my life experience. I'm just telling you that I'm going to continue to open/conceal carry till the day I die and theres not a damn thing anybody is going to do about it. [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=archangel125;42869617]I postulate neither anecdotes nor statistics count as evidence of anything because both are missing important facets of the big picture.[/QUOTE] God damn thank you.

[QUOTE=archangel125;42869617]I postulate neither anecdotes nor statistics count as evidence of anything because both are missing important facets of the big picture.[/QUOTE] The difference being, of course, that anecdotes are dismissable by default. Statistics are generally held to be acceptable evidence in just about every case and debate, and I'm struggling to see why people would suddenly reject them in regards to certain issues. It may be that every study ever done on the subject in question is missing some important facet that should have been taken into consideration, but that's an issue with the individual studies themselves. To compare them with anecdotes is inappropriate, which aren't permissable as evidence for a whole slew of totally different reasons. [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42869636]I'm not trying to make decisions for other people, nor push for legislation because of my life experience. I'm just telling you that I'm going to continue to open/conceal carry till the day I die and theres not a damn thing anybody is going to do about it.[/QUOTE] Then I'd argue that you're contributing to the issue. Criminals needn't carry guns if they needn't fear them. Of course, in your case (if I recall correctly) there was only one gun involved and that was in possession of the criminals, but they had that weapon in case they ran into a homeowner with a gun. If they didn't need to worry about homeowners carrying weapons, they wouldn't have spent money on a weapon (and guns would only get more expensive under prohibition).

[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;42869707]The difference being, of course, that anecdotes are dismissable by default. Statistics are generally held to be acceptable evidence in just about every case and debate, and I'm struggling to see why people would suddenly reject them in regards to certain issues. It may be that every study ever done on the subject in question is missing some important facet that should have been taken into consideration, but that's an issue with the individual studies themselves. To compare them with anecdotes is inappropriate, which aren't permissable as evidence for a whole slew of totally different reasons. [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] Then I'd argue that you're contributing to the issue. Criminals needn't carry guns if they needn't fear them. Of course, in your case (if I recall correctly) there was only one gun involved and that was in possession of the criminals, but they had that weapon in case they ran into a homeowner with a gun. If they didn't need to worry about homeowners carrying weapons, they wouldn't have spent money on a weapon (and guns would only get more expensive under prohibition).[/QUOTE] Ok..so if the punks that broke in that night had nothing to fear because none of us were armed, why did they blow a hole in our friends chest? Why would they hold that same gun to all of our heads while we were hogtied on the ground and tell us they were going to "blow all of our white asses away" if we presented no threat? Criminals will always carry guns in this country because guns will always give them the advantage. How am I contributing to the problem if I conceal carry and a criminal has no idea I have a firearm? As far as my anecdote goes..it isn't just an amusing story...it's also a part of a U.S. statistic.

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42869738]Ok..so if the punks that broke in that night had nothing to fear because none of us were armed, why did they blow a hole in our friends chest? Criminals will always carry guns in this country because guns will always give them the advantage. How am I contributing to the problem if I conceal carry and a criminal has no idea I have a firearm? As far as my anecdote goes..it isn't just an amusing story...it's also a part of a U.S. statistic.[/QUOTE] Exactly, it's only PART of a statistic. My point was not that they wouldn't have killed your friend if you hadn't had a gun, because you didn't and they did. My point was that they thought: "Maybe we'll run into someone with a gun. We should get one." If they had not had to fear running into someone else with a gun, they would not have brought a gun. Had they not brought a gun, they could not have shot your friend. Could they have still killed him? Absolutely, but without a gun, the chances of a death on either side go down. You're contributing to the problem because you're one of the people that criminals get guns to protect themselves against. Guns cost money, and if a criminal doesn't need to buy one, they won't.

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;42861732]yeh this happens in the uk basically everyday we just let criminals shoot us all the time and the police just tut and sigh [editline]14th November 2013[/editline] such is life without my human right to own an [B]assault rifle[/B][/QUOTE] Goddamnit what is the fucking problem with people like this; NO ONE is allowed to own an assault rifle without a hard-to-obtain license! [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;42869707] Then I'd argue that you're contributing to the issue. Criminals needn't carry guns if they needn't fear them. [/quote] Now wait just a minute – this doesn't mean that they'll stop carrying guns. Guns give them an advantage over people who don't have guns. [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;42869796] You're contributing to the problem because you're one of the people that criminals get guns to protect themselves against.[/QUOTE] So now you're going ad-hominem?

[QUOTE=BFG9000;42869879]Now wait just a minute – this doesn't mean that they'll stop carrying guns. Guns give them an advantage over people who don't have guns. [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] So now you're going ad-hominem?[/QUOTE] You're right, it doesn't guarantee that criminals won't carry guns, but I think it follows. Guns are pretty expensive, and they'll only get more expensive following legislation that makes them all the harder to acquire. I don't believe that a mugger is going to spend a whole lot of cash on a gun that they probably won't ever need. Also, I don't think that's an ad hominem. I didn't insult him, I just stated my opinion; that opinion being that the people carrying guns are contributing the to the problem. He fits into the group, so I said he contributes to the problem.

[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;42869796]My point was that they thought: "Maybe we'll run into someone with a gun. We should get one."If they had not had to fear running into someone else with a gun, they would not have brought a gun. Had they not brought a gun, they could not have shot your friend.[/QUOTE] Hngg wouldn't be so sure about THAT though. I'd think any serious group of robbers that go to break into a house will have at least one gun, and not because they're scared. Heard this happen a few times here, and as you might know guns are pretty much illegal here. They get the gun to SCARE the so-called robbees (the people beeing robbed). People are more likely to comply when threatened with a gun to the face than for example a knife or a baseball bat. What happened to you is a very valid argument pro-gun, for home and self defence. But then I'm thinking, some gun-maker should start creating some crazy multi-shot stun guns or some shit. Everyone can defend their home in case of a break in, but nobody gets hurt; unless the robber has a bad heart condition, I guess.. Wouldn't that be a better solution than people shooting slugs into innocent girls heads because they got "scared"? (which, in turn, is a valid anti-gun argument. He might not have been scared, if the chance of his so called "robber" having a gun wouldn't be so high).

[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;42869930]You're right, it doesn't guarantee that criminals won't carry guns, but I think it follows. Guns are pretty expensive, and they'll only get more expensive following legislation that makes them all the harder to acquire. I don't believe that a mugger is going to spend a whole lot of cash on a gun that they probably won't ever need. Also, I don't think that's an ad hominem. I didn't insult him, I just stated my opinion; that opinion being that the people carrying guns are contributing the to the problem. He fits into the group, so I said he contributes to the problem.[/QUOTE] Ok here's the problem. I shouldn't have to tailor myself and what I carry to fit criminals needs. Criminals [b]SHOULD[/b] fear me because I [b]WILL[/b] blow them away if they present even a single sign of impending bodily harm to myself or any innocent person in the vicinity. Where is your proof that criminals won't take advantage of disarmed citizens and just use firearms anyway to have the upper hand in a situation? Criminals will never stop using guns in this country. To think they will simply stop because we've disarmed all law-abiding gun owners is just a fallacy like fucking fairy tail, told only in bleeding heart liberal la-la land books mass produced in the United Kingdom. It's literally like the U.S. trying to stop civil unrest in Somalia. All it deserves is a massive silent face-palm. Would less firearms in Somalia result in less death? [b]Probably.[/b] That been said, I'll let YOU be the one to tell Somali's that their AKM is now illegal. After that..you can tell us Americans that we need to give up our means of self defense. [img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Rc8k_D3yYoE/Tw4IyOKMysI/AAAAAAAAAls/awgasVzJMfA/s320/Stephen-Colbert-Popcorn.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42870109] Criminals SHOULD fear me because I WILL blow them away if they present even a single sign of impending bodily harm to myself or any innocent person in the vicinity.[/QUOTE] Because you're obviously trained enough to know if a situation is so volatile that you're gonna need to shoot. This is how innocent people get shot. [QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42870109]Comparing the US to Somalia[/QUOTE] SOMALIA. Put away the popcorn.

[QUOTE=MyAlt91;42870202]Because you're obviously trained enough to know if a situation is so volatile that you're gonna need to shoot. This is how innocent people get shot. [/QUOTE] Um, yes. I am trained enough. I've kind of been attending firearms proficiency/safety/cause for escalation classes since I was a kid. Oh. And I was in the Infantry. Part of our job is kind of learning appropriate times to engage a target. Lessons taught in this institution are valuable life lessons that absolutely carry over into the civilian world. Oh. And it's not hard to judge if someone needs to get shot. Someone pulling a knife on you is not an innocent fucking person. Chances are, there won't be too many innocent people in that alleyway at 2am unless they're assisting the scumbag attacker. And of course as a responsible gun owner, I'm going to brandish my weapon and warn the attacker before I straight up shoot him or her. Why do I even need to explain this shit? Fucking mind blowing. I feel like I'm living in a literal South Park episode when I discuss firearms with some of you anti's. [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=MyAlt91;42870202] Put away the popcorn.[/QUOTE] No. I'm in no way, shape or form finished with this bucket of popcorn. Both the U.S. and Somalia kiiind of have a huge problem with gun violence and crime in General.

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42867190]So basically if I observe the fact that a home break in occurs in the US every 15.4 seconds ([URL]http://www.crimedoctor.com/home.htm[/URL]), I'm a conspiracy theorist and a nutjob?[/QUOTE] but so few of these are violent and so few end in firearm use and so few end in death? these kind of statistics (such and such happens every x amount of seconds) are useless and misleading ways to present data because it makes people expect that someone is going to kick down their door with a shotgun in broad daylight when that simply isn't the case. you can stretch the break-ins of a 24hr time period to fit nicely into 15.4 second intervals to fit an agenda, but the truth is the massive majority of break-ins happen at night, the people being broken into don't usually even realise, and no one gets hurt [quote]That is NOT a valid argument towards banning guns in the U.S.[/quote] it wasn't supposed to be? at all? someone started comparing canada and bringing the UK into it so i explained how it is for the UK [quote]And I'm telling you, you live in fucking la-la land..not to mention you just stated you'd be totally willing to remain in la-la land as oppossed to living in reality. To say that home break-ins are a rare occurrence is completely fucking delusional..[/quote] no one said that. you're removing the graveness of the situations we're talking about so that it fits your statistics. no one said "break-ins are rare". of course they're not - that is ridiculous and statistically false. we're saying that violent break-ins where someone gets shot and dies are rare and you're very unlucky that it happened to you but apparently using statistics to argue a point as opposed to using blind rage and fear based on an unlucky and one-time event is la la land? wtf is wrong with you [quote]I feel like you'd be the guy that joins the army and expects to be taught how to bake a cake instead of shoot a rifle.[/quote] this is one of the strangest things i have ever read

People should just stop arguing. I absolutely love living in a gun free society. But with American gun culture, there's literally never going to be a time when people can call it an anti gun country. Either you don't live in America, so it doesn't affect you. Or you do live in America, in which case you have to accept the fact that it will never change.

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42870243]Been in infantry ect [/QUOTE] Ok, great. Good to hear you are a responsible gun owner. And don't get me wrong, if more people were like YOU i'd be all for gun ownership. I mean I even get the fun one could have in shooting a gun at the range, something that I still want to do some day. But not everybody has been in the infantry, or has had the training to see how far a situation has actually escalated, as the starting topic of this thread shows. Maybe they shouldn't outright ban guns, (like Darcy010 just said, it's impossible with the amount of guns in the US anyway), but then atleast tighten the laws and make it so people are forced to do some sort of training like you have done, before they have the right to own a firearm. It is (was, I don't know how it stands now) simply too easy to obtain a firearm in the US. Also, Somalia is a third world country with no stable ruling power in place, how can you compare the two. They might have similarities in gun-related crimes, but there's so much differences you just cant. I mean telling a Somali man his AKM is now illegal will probably end in him laughing at you, and then promptly shooting you in the foot / abdomen / face. Telling a man in the US his gun is illegal will end in lawsuits, and petitions and the like. They (If they'd be any sort of intelligent) wouldn't go around shooting people, as that would cause more problems pro-gun.

how are you people even still arguing about this

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42870109]Criminals [b]SHOULD[/b] fear me because I [b]WILL[/b] blow them away if they present even a single sign of impending bodily harm to myself or any innocent person in the vicinity.[/QUOTE] why do you guys always fantasize about killing people, it's fuckin creepy

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42869558]I get my opinions through life experience...that doesn't seem to be enough for you because it's not an official statistic. I own several. Have owned several since I was a child. And yes, I open carry my Sig Sauer German State Police trade-in P6, or my Beretta 92FS whenever I leave my house. Go ahead and cry about it. When you're getting stomped the fuck out in some New Mexico alleyway, I WILL be there to help you, even if I lose my life in the process. What the fuck is emotionally unstable for you, anyway? Anyone that owns a firearm and has an opposing opinion? Anyone that says fuck a lot on the internet? As the great Hexpunk likes to say on a daily basis...get a fucking grip.[/QUOTE] creepy hero fantasist

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42869558]I get my opinions through life experience...that doesn't seem to be enough for you because it's not an official statistic.[/quote] I usually base my opinions on verifiable and reproducible statistical analyses. [quote]I own several. Have owned several since I was a child. And yes, I open carry my Sig Sauer German State Police trade-in P6, or my Beretta 92FS whenever I leave my house. Go ahead and cry about it. When you're getting stomped the fuck out in some New Mexico alleyway, I WILL be there to help you, even if I lose my life in the process. What the fuck is emotionally unstable for you, anyway? Anyone that owns a firearm and has an opposing opinion? Anyone that says fuck a lot on the internet? As the great Hexpunk likes to say on a daily basis...get a fucking grip.[/QUOTE] This is slightly creepy. I'm just some random nerd on the internet. How I will end up in New Mexico I have yet to give consideration to, (and what's more, being beaten up in an alleyway) I would be more terrified if a screaming madmad comes in with his Siggy Suaer Germanland Police gun thing and liberally sprays bullets everywhere. I know that I'm being beaten up and all, but most criminals don't tend to randomly murder people in alleyways by beating them to death. In fact, given the proliferation of firearms in the USA thanks to a massively deregulated firearms industry protected from market forces and subsidized by the state, it means that a lot of cheap firearms and bullets are being sold to a population and very quickly can pass into illegal ownership thanks to the convoluted regulation and excessive overproduction of firearms. (legal) Firearm ownership rates are actually declining. In other words, the guy would be more likely to shoot me and leave me bleeding to death before you even arrive (why he would beat me slowly to death long enough for a crazy man to run over and shoot him is one of concern).

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42871628]I usually base my opinions on verifiable and reproducible statistical analyses. This is slightly creepy. I'm just some random nerd on the internet. How I will end up in New Mexico I have yet to give consideration to, (and what's more, being beaten up in an alleyway) I would be more terrified if a screaming madmad comes in with his Siggy Suaer Germanland Police gun thing and liberally sprays bullets everywhere. I know that I'm being beaten up and all, but most criminals don't tend to randomly murder people in alleyways by beating them to death. In fact, given the proliferation of firearms in the USA thanks to a massively deregulated firearms industry protected from market forces and subsidized by the state, it means that a lot of cheap firearms and bullets are being sold to a population and very quickly can pass into illegal ownership thanks to the convoluted regulation and excessive overproduction of firearms. (legal) Firearm ownership rates are actually declining. In other words, the guy would be more likely to shoot me and leave me bleeding to death before you even arrive (why he would beat me slowly to death long enough for a crazy man to run over and shoot him is one of concern).[/QUOTE] You would rather be beaten to a pulp than saved by a man with a pistol? Wow, that is some kinda gun hating crazy.

[QUOTE=viper shtf;42871939]You would rather be beaten to a pulp than saved by a man with a pistol? Wow, that is some kinda gun hating crazy.[/QUOTE] If I'm in a physical confrontation with someone I'd rather not have some hero fantasist to run in shooting. Neither me nor the other guy needs to die over this.

"you'd rather be beaten up over personal possessions you should have just handed over, instead of having an untrained hero fantasist run in with his firearm, escalating the situation, making it more dangerous for yourself, and probably end up with someone getting shot and possibly dying fucking liberal pussies!" [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] you're all mental

The fact that you're so willing to just become a crime statistic disgusts me.

yeh we should be more willing to kill people. that is less disgusting right

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;42872215]The fact that you're so willing to just become a crime statistic disgusts me.[/QUOTE] protip even if you shoot the other guy, this is still recorded as a crime statistic

over a phone and a wallet too hahah you are actually insane

You kind of people are really the wrong people to own firearms. Its people like you that end up shooting black people for knocking on your door at 2am because your terrified of being a ~crime statistic~

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;42870443] no one said that. you're removing the graveness of the situations we're talking about so that it fits your statistics. [/QUOTE] The hypocrisy here is astounding [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=NoDachi;42872250]You kind of people are really the wrong people to own firearms. Its people like you that end up shooting black people for knocking on your door at 2am because your terrified of being a ~crime statistic~[/QUOTE] If that wasn't ad hominem then I don't know what is

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;42872215]The fact that you're so willing to just become a crime statistic disgusts me.[/QUOTE] I don't want to kill people though, I'm a pacifist.

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;42872231]yeh we should be more willing to kill people. that is less disgusting right[/QUOTE] Yes why don't we adapt our laws to be more like Britain? That way if someone attacks us we just need to keep running until they go away! [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;42872315]I don't want to kill people though, I'm a pacifist.[/QUOTE] oh.

[QUOTE=BFG9000;42872302]If that wasn't ad hominem then I don't know what is[/QUOTE] But its literally the exact rationale the guy in this thread used to explain why he shot that black women at 2am. [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=BFG9000;42872328]Yes why don't we adapt our laws to be more like Britain? That way if someone attacks us we just need to keep running until they go away![/QUOTE] doesn't exist

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;42872115]"you'd rather be beaten up over personal possessions you should have just handed over, instead of having an untrained hero fantasist run in with his firearm, escalating the situation, making it more dangerous for yourself, and probably end up with someone getting shot and possibly dying fucking liberal pussies!" [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] you're all mental[/QUOTE] Are you fucking kidding me You mean, you live in a state where it's considered O.K. to just have your shit stolen? It's not so much about the possessions themselves, it's about the principle. Why should anyone have to hand over their belongings because they're under threat of harm?