these findings would in any other context be labeled point-blank as war crimes, as they ought to be
Even with all this, I still kind of take this with a grain of salt.
I am not really surprised with this, all governments do this. It just depends on how well they can cover it up or get away with it.
This also doesn't make Senator Dianne Feinstein any less of a steaming pile of shit, considering her hypocrisy on gun control.
[QUOTE=Satansick;46679347]Sometimes pragmatism is necessary.[/QUOTE]
Don't you think a line is crossed when people are dying and innocent people tortured due to this "pragmatism"??
[QUOTE=Satansick;46679347]Sometimes pragmatism is necessary.[/QUOTE]
I always cringe a bit when I see posts like these in threads like these.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;46679463]Don't you think a line is crossed when people are dying and innocent people tortured due to this "pragmatism"??[/QUOTE]
Of course.
[QUOTE=Siminov;46679435]I am not really surprised with this, all governments do this.[/QUOTE]
No, they don't.
Governments attempting to maintain hegemonic framework do this. You need to be actively conflict-mongering in order to find yourself in the situation where representatives of your nation are threatening to kill children and rape family members. This sort of behavior is purely a hallmark of enormous power-centric nations like the US, Russia, China, etc.
yeah why do people keep saying that? it's such an obvious attempt to deflect away from the issue
[QUOTE=TheTalon;46677024]I find it hard to feel bad. Ask Nick Berg's father, who watched his son get his head cut off, if he thinks Sleep Deprivation is torture. Give me a fucking break[/QUOTE]
Are you claiming you know what a month of sleep deprivation feels like? I 've gotten hallucinations and headache from 2 days of sleep deprivation and hard work, i cant even begin to imagine not sleeping for a month.
[QUOTE=Str4fe;46679594]Are you claiming you know what a month of sleep deprivation feels like? I 've gotten hallucinations and headache from 2 days of sleep deprivation and hard work, i cant even begin to imagine not sleeping for a month.[/QUOTE]
I believe if you dont sleep for a week straight, you are at great risk to yourself and those around you since your brain doesnt work right at all.
And this all is disturbing. To the guys who say "but ISIS/terrorists deserve it", do you realize how many people have been detained there without proof? I am willing to a bet a fair number of those people are innocent and were just at the wrong place at the wrong time.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;46679542]This sort of behavior is purely a hallmark of enormous power-centric nations like the US, Russia, China, etc.[/QUOTE]
It's also used by any country with an active intelligence program- what do you think interrogation [I]is[/I]? Do you really think that when a country detains a suspected terrorist, only the US, Russia, and China will do more than ask them politely to cooperate? And, hell, do I need to point out the obvious fact that countries like Iran regularly engage in abusive interrogation? Not that that's a justification, but it sure makes me wonder what the flying fuck 'attempting to maintain a hegemonic framework' is supposed to mean.
Every single one of these threads about the latest American [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1406702]scandal[/url] has someone pop up to say how it's only the US that does this kind of thing, and invariably it's shown to be [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/19/world/europe/turkey-outraged-at-reports-of-german-spying.html?_r=1"]bullshit[/URL].
We can talk about changing policy and whether torture is ever justified without getting into jingoistic dick-waving about how (insert home country here) is better than the US because they'd [I]never[/I] do something like that.
The reports are out, but will this change anything?
[sp]probably not[/sp]
[QUOTE=Satansick;46679347]Sometimes pragmatism is necessary.[/QUOTE]
pragmatists would oppose torture
here is one.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff[/url]
and here is another.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Break_a_Terrorist[/url]
and here is a third one by a freaking lt. colonel saying how stupid it is
[url]http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/12/05/i-dont-believe-a-word-of-what-torture-advocates-say-and-neither-should-you/[/url]
let me quote a good part for you.
[QUOTE]News sources are reporting that the long-awaited release of the summary of the Senate Intelligence Committee report on the CIA’s torture program is just days away. Thanks to anonymous sources, we already know some of what this summary will say: “enhanced” interrogation techniques (EITS) yielded little, if any significant intelligence, and the CIA misled the government and the public about both the severity of its methods and this program’s success.
Predictably, torture’s acolytes are already responding: The report was a Republican witch hunt led by Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein. Facts were selectively culled by partisan staffers in order to paint the program in the worst possible light. Other staffers could’ve selected different facts and reached completely opposite conclusions. Sure, there were problems with the program, but these techniques really did “work.” They saved lives. Someday, the truth will be revealed, and the men and women who performed this “hard, dirty work” for good ends will be lauded as the true heroes they are. In the mean time, trust us regarding this program’s success. WE KNOW.
Hogwash. I’ve never believed a word of what torture’s advocates say, and neither should you.
When helping to manage interrogation operations for the 1st Armored Division (1AD) in Baghdad from Jul-Nov 2003, I regularly asked the interrogation cell at Abu Ghraib to re-interrogate former 1AD prisoners. This was at the height of Abu Ghraib’s use of EITs and committing other notorious abuse—abuse I had zero idea was occurring. The EITs employed at Abu Ghraib included forced nudity, cold temperatures, sleep deprivation, and the use of military working dogs.
Today, I judge any tactic designed to inflict physical or mental pain severe enough to “break” someone to be “torture.” As I look back on my experiences then, I have to conclude that I unwittingly contributed to torture. It bothers me today that I was part of the causal chain that led to the torture of maybe a hundred Iraqis, some of whom may not have even been insurgents (at least not before they were tortured).
Now, this is important: not once during this period did my Division receive any useful intelligence from Abu Ghraib. We received a few reports that Abu Ghraib interrogators seemed to think contained useful intelligence, but they contained nothing of substance that wasn’t contained in earlier reports. It was a mystery to me then why our interrogators in Baghdad produced actionable intelligence nearly every day but those at Abu Ghraib produced nothing of value—not little of value, NOTHING of value.
Still, I acknowledge that torture very occasionally produces desirable tactical information. For example, our Division Interrogation Facility (DIF) interrogated a young 16- or 17-year-old Iraqi kid who, when questioned by the brigade who had captured him, had talked about a former Iraqi colonel who was paying him to lay IEDs. When the brigade inspected the colonel’s house, they learned the kid had told the truth. However, when DIF interrogators questioned the kid, he clammed up. He refused to even talk to us. When I later took command of the intelligence company supporting this brigade, I was told that, during the time period this kid was questioned, this brigade had tortured certain prisoners. One battalion had threatened to feed some prisoners to lions. (This made the news in late 2005, to our nation’s shame.) At the brigade detention facility, at least one mock execution had occurred involving fake blood. None of these illicit interrogations involved professional interrogators.
Today, I suspect this kid was tortured. Army doctrine has long said that interrogators should employ fear only as a last resort because fear eventually leads subjects to refuse to cooperate with interrogators. And that kid certainly refused to cooperate with DIF interrogators. It also explains other facts, such as strange conversations I had with a captain in that brigade’s S2 shop.
...
When the 9/11 attacks took place, nearly 3000 Americans lost their lives, and so many Americans lost their minds, U.S. Army interrogation doctrine (as expressed in the 1987 Intelligence Interrogation manual) had it right: [B]“Experience indicates that . . . the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.” Unfortunately, this doctrine—which reflected the practical experience of generations of interrogators—was thrown away by arrogant amateurs who thought they knew more than the professionals.[/B][/QUOTE]
[quote]"With the approval of the C.I.A.'s medical staff, some C.I.A. prisoners were subjected to medically unnecessary “rectal feeding” or “rectal hydration” — a technique that the C.I.A.'s chief of interrogations described as a way to exert “total control over the detainee.”"[/quote]
Why is thi thread so inactive.
Utterly disgusting.
I wonder what people would think if torture was actually effective at getting information.
The CIA? I didn't expect them to do this sort of shit.
Horrific shit.
[QUOTE=Killuah;46682718]Why is thi thread so inactive.[/QUOTE]
at the end of the day, if people are put in the situation to be tortured in the first place then they've done something reeeal bad, and they probably don't regret it (for example the 9/11 guy). they'd be optimistic in thinking that they would get information from torturee
how is this relevant to what you said? well, as I say, if you're gonna torture, you may as well go full out. if you're doing something extremely inhumane and hideous such as torturing in the first place, why limit yourself? you're punishing a hideous criminal
and no, I don't condone/support/whatever torture (if it wasn't already obvious), just have to cover my ground because people here seem to like making claims to cause shit
[QUOTE=Siminov;46679435]I am not really surprised with this, all governments do this. [/QUOTE]
Are you really trying to say "it's okay because everyone else does it!!!" ?
All governments do this? All governments should fucking stop this
[QUOTE=Pelican;46682776][b]at the end of the day, if people are put in the situation to be tortured in the first place then they've done something reeeal bad, and they probably don't regret it (for example the 9/11 guy).[/b] they'd be optimistic in thinking that they would get information from torturee
how is this relevant to what you said? well, as I say, if you're gonna torture, you may as well go full out. if you're doing something extremely inhumane and hideous such as torturing in the first place, why limit yourself? you're punishing a hideous criminal
and no, I don't condone/support/whatever torture (if it wasn't already obvious), just have to cover my ground because people here seem to like making claims to cause shit[/QUOTE]
I can't tell from your post if you actually believe this, but just in case you do: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis[/url]
I wonder if there will follow any severe punishment at all. If not, then other countries would just laugh the US in the face, it it ever calls other countries out over their use of torture.
[QUOTE=NotMeh;46682848]Are you really trying to say "it's okay because everyone else does it!!!" ?
All governments do this? All governments should fucking stop this[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty certain that Norway, Sweden, etc have not tortured anyone in the 21st century.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;46677024]I find it hard to feel bad. Ask Nick Berg's father, who watched his son get his head cut off, if he thinks Sleep Deprivation is torture. Give me a fucking break[/QUOTE]
sleep deprivation is fucking serious
[QUOTE=TheTalon;46677052]You have to be human for me to have human sympathy. Thanks to the media's 13 years of solid coverage of nothing but suicide bombings, beheadings, school children being locked in a burning school for not having their faces covered, and watching 9/11 live on TV in high school, I have NO sympathy or care for Al-qaeda, and even less for ISIS
Sorry, but that's just how I am[/QUOTE]
oh im sorry, i forgot every person from the middle east is part of al-Qaeda.
[QUOTE=Medevila;46676936]Great, now when does the rest of the western world release their own reports?
No? Just the US? Oh well[/QUOTE]
lol imagine MI5's report
"we asked the terrorist politely if he was a terrorist but he refused to fill out our liability forms so we had to let him go"
but seriously america is the only country in the world that has the ridiculous unbound budget and moral ambiguity of a secret service as giant as the CIA. no other country in the world was running multiple internment camps for the soul purpose of torture all across the world for over a decade
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46682886]I'm pretty certain that Norway, Sweden, etc have not tortured anyone in the 21st century.[/QUOTE]
Denmark certainly hasn't, we may or may not have handed over prisoners to the US while knowing full well they would most likely be tortured.
but come on guys that's totally not as bad as actually torturing them!
right guys?
guys?
CIA needs to be reformed, or better destroyed and replaced with a brand new agency.
[QUOTE=Dougz;46677269]If you think the US is the only government to commit torture, well then I have a beach front property in montana to sell you[/QUOTE]
It is not, but the US is on a list with China, Russia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kenya, Indonesia and other shitholes (sorry if I offend anyone with this, but human rights wise these places are absolute shitholes).
Ofcourse it is not the only one but I wouldn't wanna be on that kind of list.
I don't really get the point of your post. Someone else does it too, so it's alright?
Torture is fucking disgusting middle-age bullshit and it's incredible that it is still so common today.
I disagree strongly with torture, but I wonder what alternatives are available for extracting information from a hardened suspect.
This torture stuff gives off the same vibe as Unit 731, except they were doing it for "science" these guys are doing it just because.
"rectal rehydration" - They gave him an enema.
[QUOTE=sasherz;46683658]I disagree strongly with torture, but I wonder what alternatives are available for extracting information from a hardened suspect.[/QUOTE]
Torture is ineffective when it comes to extracting information. There is no reliable way to extract information from someone (not yet) they just want you to believe that torture is one.
[QUOTE=Pelican;46682776]at the end of the day, if people are put in the situation to be tortured in the first place then they've done something reeeal bad, and they probably don't regret it (for example the 9/11 guy). they'd be optimistic in thinking that they would get information from torturee
how is this relevant to what you said? well, as I say, if you're gonna torture, you may as well go full out. if you're doing something extremely inhumane and hideous such as torturing in the first place, why limit yourself? you're punishing a hideous criminal
and no, I don't condone/support/whatever torture (if it wasn't already obvious), just have to cover my ground because people here seem to like making claims to cause shit[/QUOTE]
You're insane.
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