[QUOTE=sasherz;46683658]I disagree strongly with torture, but I wonder what alternatives are available for extracting information from a hardened suspect.[/QUOTE]
It says right in the report that one guy was tortured 3 times and 3 times he gave false info just to make them leave him alone.
It doesn't seem like it's about extracting information.
[QUOTE=sasherz;46683658]I disagree strongly with torture, but I wonder what alternatives are available for extracting information from a hardened suspect.[/QUOTE]
According to the report, a lot of people detained were actually cooperative before the torture, giving no additional information after the torture began, mostly because they had already said everything they could.
going from that to torture just means you are going to get faulty information.
Shit, the CIA according to the report acknowledged that Zubaida was cooperative before the torture, said his piece, and that the torture only "confirmed that he knew nothing else".
They considered that torture a success.
[QUOTE=The Saiko;46683773]Torture is ineffective when it comes to extracting information. There is no reliable way to extract information from someone (not yet) they just want you to believe that torture is one.[/QUOTE]
An organization that has tried off-the-wall ideas like employing self-professed psychics for intelligence gathering, but then dismissed them when it became apparent that their methods didn't work, would not employ for years and at massive cost and public backlash an intelligence-gathering method that also doesn't work.
Torture can successfully force people to divulge information, but the problem is the amount of bogus answers that people give to end the torture. Without any way to corroborate it, you get disinformation, such as the bad intel fed to the Wehrmacht by British intelligence officers who gave predetermined false information under duress and contributed to the ineffectiveness of the V1 and V2 campaigns. But with additional HUMINT, GEOINT, MASINT, and SIGINT sources, extracted information can be checked before being taken as gospel.
So aggressive interrogation can produce actionable intelligence, but only when backed up with intelligence from other sources, and can reveal information that could not be acquired any other way. The problem comes when corroboration is not available and the intelligence can't be confirmed, because then it turns into witch hunts. The other problem is the obvious moral repercussion to using torture to extract information.
Torture works, but not especially well, and only when supported by other means of intelligence-gathering, and even then isn't worth the backlash. As for why it was adopted in the first place, well, the report points to high-level politicians (with no experience in intelligence) suggesting torture as a method, then supporting a pair of armchair psychologist contractors within the CIA who instituted torture with the support of non-CIA officials, and the program seemed to be mildly effective so wasn't cancelled until after the damage had already been done. Surprisingly, it also indicates that the program has been essentially inactive for years, and was shut down internally rather than through governmental pressure.
Now we just wait and see what the political repercussions are.
this shit is taking it too far, im very dissapointed that these are the kind of people that are supposed to be trying to protect us, not to mention the threats they mentioned make them sound like they are a bunch of angry 12 year olds on xbox live
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46682876]I can't tell from your post if you actually believe this, but just in case you do: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis[/url][/QUOTE]
Moreover, it's explicitly stated that the CIA tortured people who were innocent, not because they were almost certain that they were guilty and got it wrong, but because they expected they were not guilty, but tortured them [I]just to be sure[/I].
Has the CIA done a single god damn good thing for this country?
I think it's time to get rid of them. Every single one of the worst atrocities committed by this country were done by the CIA.
[QUOTE=Medevila;46687846]that isn't in the report?[/QUOTE]
Fuck, I thought I had read that somewhere.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;46687855]Has the CIA done a single god damn good thing for this country?[/QUOTE]
Everything short of actually pulling the trigger on Bin Laden?
Man if only WhollyRufus was still around
But I do hope something is done to reign in the CIA so they can't just keep lying and downplaying their actions to the POTUS of all people.
[url]http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/10-craziest-things-in-the-senate-report-on-torture-20141210[/url]
worth a read.
Made a thread too but a Senate IP address has tried and failed twice to edit the wikipedia article on the torture report to remove the word "torture".
[url]http://mashable.com/2014/12/10/senate-wikipedia-torture-report/[/url]
[QUOTE=Pelican;46682776]at the end of the day, [B]if people are put in the situation to be tortured in the first place then they've done something reeeal bad, and they probably don't regret it (for example the 9/11 guy)[/B]. they'd be optimistic in thinking that they would get information from torturee
how is this relevant to what you said? well, as I say, if you're gonna torture, you may as well go full out. if you're doing something extremely inhumane and hideous such as torturing in the first place, why limit yourself? you're punishing a hideous criminal
and no, I don't condone/support/whatever torture (if it wasn't already obvious), just have to cover my ground because people here seem to like making claims to cause shit[/QUOTE]Many of the people we tortured were innocent and those are the ones we know about. The CIA literally forgot people in those black sites, "Who is this guy and why was he here again?". Many of the people tortured were taken because of intelligence from [I]other[/I] people who were tortured, and as we should all know, intelligence gained from torture is not reliable. How many more do you think were innocent that we don't know about. The CIA even tortured their own informants. So no, many of these people did not do bad things they didn't regret to put them in that situation.
[QUOTE=Potus;46688486]Man if only WhollyRufus was still around
But I do hope something is done to reign in the CIA so they can't just keep lying and downplaying their actions to the POTUS of all people.[/QUOTE]
wait he got permabanned? i was looking what he was gonna post in this thread
oh and on topic this is disgusting just imagine the stuff they are doing that we don't know about
Regarding torture, why is the US always in the spotlight?
The CIA is definitely not the only one to do this.
[QUOTE=catbarf;46687108]An organization that has tried off-the-wall ideas like employing self-professed psychics for intelligence gathering, but then dismissed them when it became apparent that their methods didn't work, would not employ for years and at massive cost and public backlash an intelligence-gathering method that also doesn't work.[/QUOTE]
Except theres people who want to torture others and get off on it ETC.... Your saying that because they stopped using psychics that were unreliable, that they would stop using torture if it was unreliable... I see what you were aiming for, but it just doesn't work in this situation sorry.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;46689821]Regarding torture, why is the US always in the spotlight?
The CIA is definitely not the only one to do this.[/QUOTE]
As Matthew said because evidence was released, but also because America is the motherland of democracy, freedom, human rights (etc etc etc). Politically USA acts like it defines what's right and what's wrong (which is currently true to a large extent), so seeing it do something against it's own values is pretty shocking.
So it's under the spotling because it's surprising. It was "sort of" common knowledge, but it all was mostly speculation with no evidence.
Also it's interesting that CIA has these "black holes" secret prisons in other countries to avoid breaking USA laws. It means that CIA might be torturing someone across from YOUR house in Netherlands (assuming you live in Netherlands) and wherever else.
And as the last issue it indicates that CIA is very independent from the government so it's just worrying: if POTUS doesn't control them then who does? That makes them unpredictable, which is scary to the public.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
