15,000 Police Officers Weigh In on Gun Control [Charts] - Polidicks

[QUOTE=teh pirate;40225732]if that was true you would have shut up about this long ago, the majority of americans do not want more arbitrary obstacles to gun ownership[/QUOTE] This isn't really true: [img]http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/jbsak-evneuntp71wjypma.gif[/img] [url]http://www.gallup.com/poll/159569/americans-stricter-gun-laws-oppose-bans.aspx[/url] [editline]10th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;40225812]...so then no gun laws?[/QUOTE] Well if the empirical evidence suggests that they don't assist, then there isn't much point to doing it. [editline]10th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=teh pirate;40225815]what the fuck[/QUOTE] I have a feeling you have not only neglected to read many posts, but the OP itself.

restrictions are not necessarily arbitrary obstacles i support logical well thought out restrictions that do not harm innocent gun owners (like DRM on your favorite video games), as does every gun owner with a brain

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40225824] Well if the empirical evidence suggests that they don't assist, then there isn't much point to doing it.[/QUOTE] even if empirical evidence suggested strengthened gun laws would outright eradicate crime, it would still be punishing innocent people for the greater good.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40225870]even if empirical evidence suggested strengthened gun laws would outright eradicate crime, it would still be punishing innocent people for the greater good.[/QUOTE] Well no because you create the laws first before enforcing them. Most citizens of the state usually agree to the laws there and can make their objections known and heard as a new law is being created.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40225906]Well no because you create the laws first before enforcing them. Most citizens of the state usually agree to the laws there and can make their objections known and heard as a new law is being created.[/QUOTE] but what about the ones that don't agree? what if the ones that don't agree are a minority?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40225914]but what about the ones that don't agree? what if the ones that don't agree are a minority?[/QUOTE] Well they usually protest, lobby and various other activities. How else would have the feminist or LGBT movements gotten off the ground?

which is what gun owners do, too bad people like you write us off as gun toting rednecks and ignore our opinions i know a lot of people who have just opted to bury their guns and hang on to them even after the laws are passed because they feel like their voice isn't being heard and that isn't how a democracy should work, but you only care about democracy when it works for you

[QUOTE=teh pirate;40225989]which is what gun owners do, too bad people like you write us off as gun toting rednecks and ignore our opinions i know a lot of people who have just opted to bury their guns and hang on to them even after the laws are passed because they feel like their voice isn't being heard and that isn't how a democracy should work, but you only care about democracy when it works for you[/QUOTE] youre posts are ofen faililing to addres certain points on which to critize me your using starwmen too and rambled on as though youre making legetimate posts

what exactly do you want me to reply to it's hard arguing with people who don't know what they are talking about [editline]10th April 2013[/editline] and why did your spelling suddenly collapse

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40225962]Well they usually protest, lobby and various other activities. How else would have the feminist or LGBT movements gotten off the ground?[/QUOTE] your dream government is one in which minorities are oppressed until they finally organize and start fighting against the government?

[QUOTE=teh pirate;40226081]what exactly do you want me to reply to it's hard arguing with people who don't know what they are talking about[/QUOTE] spofific poins insted of genarelizd rambels wher u camplain aboot bein generlized as a redneick but then genarlize gun centrel legislotion and stuf [editline]10th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;40226105]your dream government is one in which minorities are oppressed until they finally organize and start fighting against the government?[/QUOTE] Well no, because the legislation protecting minorities isn't removed. You seem to be misunderstanding how utilitarianism operates.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40224762]that's not true. you can carry a concealed knife as long as it isn't a certain size(dependent on state laws) and doesn't use certain opening mechanisms(switchblade). and a box cutter is not considered a weapon except when used as one.[/QUOTE] Actually it is true in Idaho, but again it's a law that's not enforced because it'd be fucking stupid to charge someone with assault and carrying a concealed weapon over a pocket knife and the cop is way more likely to tell the caller off for being such an idiot and wasting his time. Course this is the same state where it's legal to open carry a weapon (ANY weapon), but if you have a CCW license you can't go from concealed to open carry where people see you do it without breaking the law, but you can go from open carry to concealed carry no problem even if people see you do it. But again, it's one of those things where if the cop decides you didn't mean any harm you're just gonna get told to be more careful instead of being charged with a crime.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40226118]spofific poins insted of genarelizd rambels wher u camplain aboot bein generlized as a redneick but then genarlize gun centrel legislotion and stuf [editline]10th April 2013[/editline] Well no, because the legislation protecting minorities isn't removed. You seem to be misunderstanding how utilitarianism operates.[/QUOTE] i am because you are contradicting yourself. you call for laws that disenfranchise minorities but at the same time say that minorities should be protected. you say that groups like feminists, lgbt, and civil rights groups are good even though they broke laws to fight against a government that sacrificed their rights for something that was deemed "in the greater good". it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40226118]spofific poins insted of genarelizd rambels wher u camplain aboot bein generlized as a redneick but then genarlize gun centrel legislotion and stuf[/QUOTE] jesus you really worked for that title of yours didnt you

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40226147]i am because you are contradicting yourself. you call for laws that disenfranchise minorities but at the same time say that minorities should be protected. you say that groups like feminists, lgbt, and civil rights groups are good even though they broke laws to fight against a government that sacrificed their rights for something that was deemed "in the greater good". it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.[/QUOTE] Well gun rights are hardly comparable to feminism or LGBT are they? This is kind of how democracy operates a lot of the time though. So far I have yet to find of a superior system to rectify these problems. In fact, your arguments seem to eventually point towards a stateless society, because if a minority should not be disenfranchised, then eventually this can extend to those who don't want to be living in a state in the first place. The point is that Utilitarians work towards maximizing utility, but they also tend to support justice as well. It's a rather pragmatic one (that being the intention). [editline]10th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=teh pirate;40226153]jesus you really worked for that title of yours didnt you[/QUOTE] Well if you actually replied to specific examples where you could criticize me, you might actually get a coherent response, because so far you have provided anything but coherent posts.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40226176]Well gun rights are hardly comparable to feminism or LGBT are they? This is kind of how democracy operates a lot of the time though. So far I have yet to find of a superior system to rectify these problems. In fact, your arguments seem to eventually point towards a stateless society, because if a minority should not be disenfranchised, then eventually this can extend to those who don't want to be living in a state in the first place. [/QUOTE] well i am an anarchist. i don't believe living standards for a majority should be traded for self-determination or happiness of a minority. if you work under the goal of trying to provide maximum happiness to the majority of people, then you inevitably end up oppressing the will of individuals in the system. that's why, although i find gun ownership pretty dumb and contrary to my anti-militaristic/violence belief system, the government trying to limit gun ownership is tyrannical to its core. especially when you consider that it would be a group that allows itself the privilege of owning weapons of mass destruction and murder trying to take a means of defense from individuals. government would be intentionally or unintentionally elevating its position in society and giving itself a monopoly on the use of force, something that is a bit disturbing.

America is fucked.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40226238]well i am an anarchist. i don't believe living standards for a majority should be traded for self-determination or happiness of a minority. if you work under the goal of trying to provide maximum happiness to the majority of people, then you inevitably end up oppressing the will of individuals in the system. that's why, although i find gun ownership pretty dumb and contrary to my anti-militaristic/violence belief system, the government trying to limit gun ownership is tyrannical to its core. especially when you consider that it would be a group that allows itself the privilege of owning weapons of mass destruction and murder trying to take a means of defense from individuals. government would be intentionally or unintentionally elevating its position in society and giving itself a monopoly on the use of force, something that is a bit disturbing.[/QUOTE] Well I live in the world of today and wish to live by a philosophy that sees improvement in the near future to all people (which is kind of the point behind it). The more happy that more people are, the better imo. You can argue about exceptions to the rule (make some people worse off for the greater good), but this isn't advocated by any utilitarian I can think of. It's why I can support often ideologically opposing views.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40226313]You can argue about exceptions to the rule (make some people worse off for the greater good), but this isn't advocated by any utilitarian I can think of.[/QUOTE] it doesn't matter if it's explicitly advocated by any utilitarian. it is implied through the application of such a system. it is an inherent flaw in a government that views the majority as the chief concern. there will inevitably be cases where the maximum happiness of people will involve the suppression of minorities, as would be the case with gun legislation.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40226345]it doesn't matter if it's explicitly advocated by any utilitarian. it is implied through the application of such a system. it is an inherent flaw in a government that views the majority as the chief concern. there will inevitably be cases where the maximum happiness of people will involve the suppression of minorities, as would be the case with gun legislation.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately, were we to take your position, it would require the state to be more or less removed entirely. If gun ownership strongly correlated with crime (which it doesn't), then it would make pragmatic sense to enact gun legislation. Remember that in that case (just that particular example I have), it would actually /benefit/ the minority too, because they have seen a reduction in crime rates (and given that if they were the most likely to use firearms and be involved with crime if it strongly correlated). Utilitarianism would still work because although you are causing problems to that minority, at the same time you are also increasing their own net utility.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40225702]15,000 policemen are not experts to be relied upon for firearms legislation. In the real world, we use more than just peoples opinions.[/QUOTE] Not really, given the type of legislation we've seen the past couple months.

[QUOTE=Scot;40226265]America is fucked.[/QUOTE] yes it's so terrible, please never come here, ever, you will die. don't even read about america on the internet you might have a heart attack its literally so bad that im attacked if i peak out of my bomb shelter