Palestinian teen activist could face years in prison after slapping an Israeli soldier - Polidicks

[QUOTE=joost1120;52995866]The Nazi's didn't shoot every civilian of the countries they occupied. Most of Western Europe saw situations very similar to what Palestinians are seeing now.[/QUOTE] And several occupations are also similar without going to Nazis before and after they existed. You know what is unique to Nazis in their occupation? An intentional plan of Genocide and forced Ghettorization to the point that the inevitable starvation that killed hundred of thousands of people was a convenient benefit before shipping people by cattle car to be gassed, shot, or worked to death by the millions. Please tell where Israel or the IDF have hit that level of malevolence to warrant a comparison or allusion of moral equivalence to the evils of Nazism that you are trying to appeal with. And now you will respond that I probably misrepresented your argument because [i]clearly[/i] you were just only alluding to the Nazis occupation of something like the Netherlands, but you probably won't acknowledge that by bringing in a Nazi comparison you are fine with attaching the immense underlying connotations people will obviously think of first instead of choosing a more reasonable comparison. These Reductio ad Nazism fallacies just make for less chance to have an actual tangible discussion.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52995866]The Nazi's didn't shoot every civilian of the countries they occupied. Most of Western Europe saw situations very similar to what Palestinians are seeing now.[/QUOTE] yeah the nazis were big fans of giving people who attacked their soldiers and dissented a fair trial and a prison sentance

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52995179]They preferred the land where their ancestors lived but were willing to compromise and take Uganda.[/QUOTE] Ah, yes. They would have been okay with taking some other people's land and treating it as their own. That would have been totally fine. Reminds me of what France did with Algeria, in fact. I guess pieds noirs should have remained in control of the country. Oh and I guess you'll bring up they were also a British colony at the time, as if that makes it any more ethical in the first place. It doesn't. [QUOTE]Your comparison of a Jewish state with a white Christian run state is a bad comparison. First, Jewish in this case means the ethnic groups that traditionally practice Judaism, not a religious government.[/QUOTE] And? Is it okay to want a state's government to be run by a specific ethnicity? [QUOTE]Second, white Christians don't have the history of prosecution that Jews have.[/QUOTE] Ooh, I see. The ultimate defense, being oppressed (or having oppressed ancestors, even) justifies oppressive behavior. I suppose you also believe racism is prejudice+power? What does a past of persecution have to do with being entitled to a state run by your specific ethnicity? Where's the LGBT-run state? Should we create one? [QUOTE]Third, Israel allows and encourages non Jewish people to participate in the government, non Jews have a voice in Israel.[/QUOTE] You're moving the goalposts. We're talking about Zionists' beliefs, which are, by your own description: [QUOTE=Svinnik;52994981]That state should be one where Jews have control of the government[/QUOTE] IE they believe there should be a state specifically run by their own ethnicity.

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;52995877]You mean, except for the rounding up and execution of millions of minorities and dissidents. There is that one little detail.[/QUOTE] You answered it yourself. Minorities. The majority of the population wasn't shot. They were treated similarly to how Palestinians are treated now. Collective punishments was common. The Nazi's tried to control trade and freedom of movement of the people.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52995953]You answered it yourself. Minorities. The majority of the population wasn't shot. They were treated similarly to how Palestinians are treated now. Collective punishments was common. The Nazi's tried to control trade and freedom of movement of the people.[/QUOTE] Do you think going to the Nazis first for comparison on occupations throughout history is a reasonable course of comparison when discussing the IDF? You do know there have been many occupations before you get to Nazis, right?

[QUOTE=Tudd;52995978]Do you think going to the Nazis first for comparison on occupations throughout history is a reasonable course of comparison when discussing the IDF? You do know there have been many occupations before you get to Nazis, right?[/QUOTE] You do know I wasn't the one that initally compared the IDF to the Nazi's? Also, it's a bit easier to relate to the occupation by the Nazi's than the occupation of Libya by Italy before the first world war.

Israel is it's own special little shitshow, barely comparable to anything before it. It doesn't necessarily have the racial tones of Apartheid, and they aren't overt assholes like Nazis. Their policies are motivated by fear mixed in with Nationalist sentiment, though the Nationalist part only really shows up in the government. As well they have a similar problem with the US as in their leaders (both sides) are old conservatives trying to uphold outdated idealism.

I mean, Israel is it's own situation. It's not Großdeutschland and it's not South Africa - but it is actually in the same league, there's no denying it. The Nazi comparisons are mostly silly. Israel is actually illegally occupying territory and displacing the locals for settlement by their own more... ideologically motivated citizens in the pursuit of a kind of "greater Israel". The methods are different; you just basically make daily life more or less illegal and slowly displace the undesirable ethnic group by strangling them - but it's just as intentional and just as methodical as the Germans, just on a longer time span that they can get away with. Our Israeli members here talk about the peace process failing, or the Palestinians not being willing to engage in any sort of peace - but Israel has all the cards. They have all the power in this situation. They could unilaterally solve the situation themselves if they stopped being cunts but the sad fact is that doesn't benefit them and they'd rather just slowly ethnically cleanse people with less direct means while lying to your face about it. They're so afraid of this enemy that they have created - former IDF conscripts on this very forum have gone as far to say "we could kill them all if we had to". Honestly Israel makes me fucking sick. For a generation to go through such heinous shit and then immediately turn around and do it to someone else in the same generation? I mean, wow, there's no hope for humanity, is there?

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;52995704] what we used to call the "euphoria", back in the 90s when the peace process was going strong, when it really looked like we were going to end this conflict with everyone satisfied, when we were suddenly making friends all over the planet with countries that wouldn't touch us with a stick before, and all the big international companies were flowing in. We didn't have McDonalds and Pepsi and Dominos and Nescafe before the peace process started. Just local stuff. You don't remember what hope feels like. Most people don't. Israelis and Palestinians. That's why we're mostly okay with just killing each other over the pettiest bullshit instead of taking the last few steps to settling this godawful feud already. Because we're all idiots.[/QUOTE] My mother told me her experience of Rabin's murder once. She told me she was out partying when someone came into the club and told everybody that Rabin was murdered, and said that it was the moment that shattered her hope. All the things that came afterward were just further beatings to that shattered hope, until it just blew away like dust. My entire family used to vote for the idealistic left, now they all vote for the right. Not because they love anyone in it, but out of sheer pessimism. Sad stuff.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52996137]Israel cannot unilaterally solve the situation. If they gave up West Bank and East Jerusalem, then the talks will shift to Palestinian right of return. If Israel concedes on that (impossible hypothetical, no country would let themselves be flooded with millions despising their very existence) then it will be about something else. There are no ends to these talks if PA wants it not to end. They hold some sway too - they will be the ones who will put the second signature on the final agreement, and they can hold out as long as they wish. Palestinians have legitimate complaints, but they need to face, sooner or later, their almost hopeless and continuously worsening predicament, look at what is realistically achievable, and put effort into making a deal as much as Israel does (or did, in the past) - Before it is too late. After a point the best deal West Bank will be able to get will probably be being annexed by Israel.[/QUOTE] Personally I think Abbas should declare Hamas illegal, get the UN to clear out Gaza and set up a peacekeeping operation in Palestinian areas, acting as a neutral security force basically. Israel won't have to feel the need to ride Palestine's ass to prevent Hamas from total control, and Palestinians don't have to have terrorist as their only security. Things aren't this simple, though ideally this is what should be done imo.

[QUOTE=SeamanStains;52996094]I mean, Israel is it's own situation. It's not Großdeutschland and it's not South Africa - but it is actually in the same league, there's no denying it. The Nazi comparisons are mostly silly. Israel is actually illegally occupying territory and displacing the locals for settlement by their own more... ideologically motivated citizens in the pursuit of a kind of "greater Israel". The methods are different; you just basically make daily life more or less illegal and slowly displace the undesirable ethnic group by strangling them - but it's just as intentional and just as methodical as the Germans, just on a longer time span that they can get away with. Our Israeli members here talk about the peace process failing, or the Palestinians not being willing to engage in any sort of peace - but Israel has all the cards. They have all the power in this situation. They could unilaterally solve the situation themselves if they stopped being cunts but the sad fact is that doesn't benefit them and they'd rather just slowly ethnically cleanse people with less direct means while lying to your face about it. They're so afraid of this enemy that they have created - former IDF conscripts on this very forum have gone as far to say "we could kill them all if we had to". Honestly Israel makes me fucking sick. For a generation to go through such heinous shit and then immediately turn around and do it to someone else in the same generation? I mean, wow, there's no hope for humanity, is there?[/QUOTE] Sorry friend, but im not convinced by your argument. Its very narrow minded and full of double standards, especially when you say that Israel holds all of the cards and call us out with seriously outdated and generally fucking stupid buzzwords like ethnic cleansing and "greater israel" (i mean are you fucking serious look at how much land was returned amd settlements evicted for peace) But the dumbest thing in your argument is the claim that Israel has all the cards. This isn't so black and white, quit thinking that only the strong side can end it all. Its almost 2018 and you're still using excuses and arguments from the past. [QUOTE=Megadave;52996201]Personally I think Abbas should declare Hamas illegal, get the UN to clear out Gaza and set up a peacekeeping operation in Palestinian areas, acting as a neutral security force basically. Israel won't have to feel the need to ride Palestine's ass to prevent Hamas from total control, and Palestinians don't have to have terrorist as their only security. Things aren't this simple, though ideally this is what should be done imo.[/QUOTE] Sounds like a wet dream, The UN to actually be useful? If only they did more than verbally condemn and literally being "aaaay stop fighting pls thx"

It takes a brave man to deny what's right in front of him. If you can't realize that Israel is actively commiting mass atrocities, human rights violations, and senseless occupations + intimidation and injury to civilians, then I'm afraid you've no desire to see what's really going on.

Exactly, Trump, not to keep bringing him up in every thread, should be a fire under the UN's ass to get them motivated to take on their role and original job as world police. If they don't god knows who will be next, and it could make the problem even worse. So yes a wet dream, but I gotta stay positive.

[QUOTE=Quark:;52996237]It takes a brave man to deny what's right in front of him. If you can't realize that Israel is actively commiting mass atrocities, human rights violations, and senseless occupations + intimidation and injury to civilians, then I'm afraid you've no desire to see what's really going on.[/QUOTE] Sure we aint the brightest country in the world, but the fact that you literally move the goalposts to capitalize our mistakes and demonize us like we're a bunch of white supremacists from a Tarantino movie makes me think that you've never seen these "things" that are going on yourself. Hell, i hope you don't think that i own a body pillow of Netanyahu or jerk off to pictures of dead Palestinians too.

[QUOTE=RzDat;52996311]Sure we aint the brightest country in the world, but the fact that you literally move the goalposts to capitalize our mistakes and demonize us like we're a bunch of white supremacists from a Tarantino movie makes me think that you've never seen these "things" that are going on yourself. Hell, i hope you don't think that i own a body pillow of Netanyahu or jerk off to pictures of dead Palestinians too.[/QUOTE] it's funny you say that, because i haven't moved [I]any[/I] goalposts, and i'm not demonizing anyone. i'm simply stating irrefutable facts which you seem to be taking as a personal jab against you. i'm sorry you feel this way, but it's pretty hard to sit and defend israel's actions unless you're blind to the full ramifications and consequences of said actions. entire families destroyed, land occupied, innocent people detained and arrested, some killed. oddly specific about the body pillow bit and what you jerk off to though..not sure what compelled you to insert that bit.

[QUOTE=RzDat;52996214]Sorry friend[/QUOTE] I hold my friends to pretty high personal standards. Ethnic cleansing apologist out of pure cowardice doesn't come close.

[QUOTE=Quark:;52996355]it's funny you say that, because i haven't moved [I]any[/I] goalposts, and i'm not demonizing anyone. i'm simply stating irrefutable facts which you seem to be taking as a personal jab against you. i'm sorry you feel this way, but it's pretty hard to sit and defend israel's actions unless you're blind to the full ramifications and consequences of said actions. entire families destroyed, land occupied, innocent people detained and arrested, some killed. oddly specific about the body pillow bit and what you jerk off to though..not sure what compelled you to insert that bit.[/QUOTE] You're getting me wrong then. Of course i can say the same about England and France: "its very hard to defend these countries after all the countries they colonised, innocents executed and locals displaced" this is a very negetive and outdated outlook on the current situation. No, the reasons im defending Israel's actions is because of situations like in the OP. If this was a different thread about Israeli soldiers coming to an arab village and massacring everyone then you won't expect me to defend it. Like i said, we're not the brightest country in the world but at least there are respectable policies within the IDF. Your claim that im denying these stuff yet i've never said Israel is a saint. [QUOTE=SeamanStains;52996373]I hold my friends to pretty high personal standards. Ethnic cleansing apologist out of pure cowardice doesn't come close.[/QUOTE] That's really edgy. I tip my hat off to you, your highness.

[QUOTE=RzDat;52996214]Sorry friend, but im not convinced by your argument. Its very narrow minded and full of double standards, especially when you say that Israel holds all of the cards and call us out with seriously outdated and generally fucking stupid buzzwords like ethnic cleansing and "greater israel" (i mean are you fucking serious look at how much land was returned amd settlements evicted for peace) But the dumbest thing in your argument is the claim that Israel has all the cards. This isn't so black and white, quit thinking that only the strong side can end it all. Its almost 2018 and you're still using excuses and arguments from the past.[/QUOTE] "Excuses from the past." People have a reason to fight as long as their lives and land are being regulated by a power that doesn't recognise them as either their citizens or a foreign country. Invaders. Must. Die. Israel has the power to release the occupied territories and return the borders that everyone, internationally, already recognises as legit Israeli territory. What the Palestinians do after that is totally up to them, they are free to fuck themselves up as much as they want - but at least they'll have the ability to determine their own fate. They aren't arguments from the past. As long as the Israeli's are in the occupied territories, the situation is COMPLETELY black and white. There isn't even an argument to be had. Also, "ethnic cleansing" and "greater Israel" aren't buzzwords. You, yourself, fucking KNOW that land is being claimed by settlers who believe they have a right to displace those living on it due to their greater ideological destiny. You fucking know that and you're willfully ignoring it. You also fucking know that due to the nature of the Military Zones, the local people in the occupied territories are being systematically displaced by military law - that is literally ethnic cleansing. Hell, in WW2, the Germans tried partisans and Jews by military courts - a simultaneous legal system applied to non-citizens in their occupied territories in order to apply collective punishment and systematic displacement. They aren't buzzwords. They are descriptors. [editline]22nd December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=RzDat;52996408]That's really edgy. I tip my hat off to you, your highness.[/QUOTE] I'm not seeing the edge here. Is it edgy to say that Israel is afraid that they can't unilaterally defuse the situation? Or that I wouldn't be friends with someone who supports ethnic cleansing? If you want to talk about edgy let's talk about willingly supporting a rogue state (that ethnically cleanses their military conquests) from the inside, friendo.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52996313]UN is not and should never be "world police" LMAO[/QUOTE] Who do you think should be world police (I use the term extremely loosely)? I either vote the organization created for the sole purpose of that, or no one gets the fucking job.

[QUOTE=Megadave;52996967]Who do you think should be world police (I use the term extremely loosely)? I either vote the organization created for the sole purpose of that, or no one gets the fucking job.[/QUOTE] The UN isn't a military organization that creates war, it's a council to prevent it.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52997001]The UN isn't a military organization that creates war, it's a council to prevent it.[/QUOTE] I never said the UN should create a war, it should provide security for less developed states that don't have the ability to keep bad people away from the government, which in itself prevents a civil war. Being defensive in a war doesn't mean you create it.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52995821]If they were Nazis, every member of that family would be executed by the side of the road.[/QUOTE] Maybe they're just fascists then

[QUOTE=SeamanStains;52996438]"Excuses from the past." People have a reason to fight as long as their lives and land are being regulated by a power that doesn't recognise them as either their citizens or a foreign country. Invaders. Must. Die. [/quote] Uh huh, like i said: excuses from the past. We already recognized them as a foreign state, gave land for them to build (see: Gaza) evicted OUR OWN PEOPLE from said lands (see: Gaza and Amona in the West Bank) and it didn't make a god damn difference. [Quote] Israel has the power to release the occupied territories and return the borders that everyone, internationally, already recognises as legit Israeli territory. What the Palestinians do after that is totally up to them, they are free to fuck themselves up as much as they want - but at least they'll have the ability to determine their own fate. [/quote] What do you mean by 'everyone'? The fact that Israel is recognized internationally doesn't mean shit to the current situation. What we learned is that if we return more land, the Palestinian leadership will demand more. So yeah, fuck that. [Quote] They aren't arguments from the past. As long as the Israeli's are in the occupied territories, the situation is COMPLETELY black and white. There isn't even an argument to be had. [/quote] And see, this is why i think you're full of shit. If i dont see stuff black and white towards the Palestinian leadership, why should you see it like that towards Israel? [Quote] Also, "ethnic cleansing" and "greater Israel" aren't buzzwords. You, yourself, fucking KNOW that land is being claimed by settlers who believe they have a right to displace those living on it due to their greater ideological destiny. You fucking know that and you're willfully ignoring it. You also fucking know that due to the nature of the Military Zones, the local people in the occupied territories are being systematically displaced by military law - that is literally ethnic cleansing.[/quote] Look up "greater israel" again and see how dumb that argument is. If we were all about greater israel then we would never have returned Sinai (which is 10x times bigger than the west bank, mind you) I'll consider it ethnic cleansing if the Palestinian population decreases over the years, right now it only increases. [Quote] [editline]22nd December 2017[/editline] I'm not seeing the edge here. Is it edgy to say that Israel is afraid that they can't unilaterally defuse the situation? Or that I wouldn't be friends with someone who supports ethnic cleansing? If you want to talk about edgy let's talk about willingly supporting a rogue state (that ethnically cleanses their military conquests) from the inside, friendo.[/QUOTE] Lmao way to take stuff waaay out of context. Why are you so offended by the word 'friend'?

So why decrease the accessible area of the Palestinians if they are increasing? Isn't that just asking for a humanitarian crisis? Or is Annexation the goal? Either you want to take over for their good or you want to starve them off and keep them enclosed.

If Israel is doing ethnic cleansing, then they're doing a piss poor job of it. Never seen the value in this argument. In regards to this topic, the kid shouldn't really be trying to get a rise out of a soldier, but by the same token, they shouldn't get punished by a multi-year prison sentence for something so obviously directed, because doing so just strengthens their argument.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52997282]The dumb situation Israel finds itself in is that they don't want to annex the West Bank, since it has so many filthy Arabs in it, and they don't want to release it because it'll be taken over by people who will want more from Israel so that they'll have to invade again anyway. It'd make Israel miss Jordan's control over the Temple Mount. What is the long term plan of Israel? As far as I know, they stopped deporting Palestinians, so settlements surpassing Arabs in population is not an option. Israel should have put in the effort and resources to integrate the West Bank and Gaza and be a minority while preserving peace. But it is too late for that now. I honestly don't know, don't see an easy way out for Israel.[/QUOTE] I'd support a one state solution under certain circumstances, though those circumstances would make Israel a multi-national state, and there'd have to be a diplomatic means of annexation, which I don't see happening as long as the old guard has control over both Israel and Palestine.

[QUOTE=Megadave;52997457]I'd support a one state solution under certain circumstances, though those circumstances would make Israel a multi-national state, and there'd have to be a diplomatic means of annexation, which I don't see happening as long as the old guard has control over both Israel and Palestine.[/QUOTE] Honestly, a one state solution always sounded better to me, but I think chances of that are pretty much zero after all that has happened since the 90's.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52995866]The Nazi's didn't shoot every civilian of the countries they occupied. Most of Western Europe saw situations very similar to what Palestinians are seeing now.[/QUOTE] Uhhh not quite. The holocaust wasn't all done in camps, up to 2 million people were killed in the East by the Einsatzgruppen (SS death squads). This unit's sole purpose was the murder of anyone they suspect to be a jew, gypsy, anti-nazi, intellectual, wealthy, or partisan. Israel has nothing coming even remotely close to this, and anyone that is captured is put on trial and imprisoned if convicted.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52998498]Uhhh not quite. The holocaust wasn't all done in camps, up to 2 million people were killed in the East by the Einsatzgruppen (SS death squads). This unit's sole purpose was the murder of anyone they suspect to be a jew, gypsy, anti-nazi, intellectual, wealthy, or partisan. Israel has nothing coming even remotely close to this, and anyone that is captured is put on trial and imprisoned if convicted.[/QUOTE] Well that might explain why I said Western Europe.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52998503]Well that might explain why I said Western Europe.[/QUOTE] Then you're just nitpicking, in a very strange way. "Israel is acting like Nazis. No, not [I]those[/I] Nazis."