• Québec's Prime Minister want to kill Democracy
    62 replies, posted
[QUOTE=shewolf51;36013752]Thank you for this. It certainly helps bring the Student protest into perspective a bit more for those of us in provinces outside of Quebec. If the income tax truly is higher than what most of the country pays then the tuition hike certainly sounds like a lovely stab in the back. Especially so for people with low income who are trying to get a degree. Also I'm surprised that Quebec's minimum wage is only $8.25. I had thought that the national average for minimum wage was $10.00 instead of ranging so massively between the provinces. I guess my memory is shoddy as usual.[/QUOTE] To be fair it's actually 9.80$/h since the beginning of May.
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;36009700]Sorry we are trying to make a better world for your kids too.[/QUOTE] Yea by forcing people who aren't born in Quebec/France to pay waaay higher tuition for better schooling [in Quebec!] and rioting over an increase in your tuition. Right. [editline]19th May 2012[/editline] On top of that there are also people fighting to separate Quebec from Canada which won't end well for either party. Honestly it seems like its fucking things up really.
This is why nobody really likes Quebec.
[QUOTE=smace;36014754]This is why nobody really likes Quebec.[/QUOTE] AFAIK it depends on who you run in to. Although I can't say because I've never been there but I have to go there in a few years for an important surgery [that can only be done there]
[QUOTE=smace;36014754]This is why nobody really likes Quebec.[/QUOTE] Depends where you go. A lot of people here are assholes, admittedly. I speak only English, and you'd be surprised how many people get mad at you for speaking English instead of French. When it's the other way around, they get mad at you for not knowing French and call you names. That's just where I live, though. Like I said, it all depends on area.
-snipe what am I doing-
[QUOTE=HorizoN;36014706]Yea by forcing people who aren't born in Quebec/France to pay waaay higher tuition for better schooling [in Quebec!] and rioting over an increase in your tuition. Right. [editline]19th May 2012[/editline] On top of that there are also people fighting to separate Quebec from Canada which won't end well for either party. Honestly it seems like its fucking things up really.[/QUOTE] The separatist movement as a possibility died a few years ago - it was voted out to begin with. Now there's only a few still believing in that shit, so you shouldn't mix it up with this strike. It has nothing to do with the government of Canada. [editline]19th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=smace;36014754]This is why nobody really likes Quebec.[/QUOTE] You're an idiot. Who is nobody? Everybody you know? I live in Quebec and I like Quebec, and I know my friends do as well. The people rioting in the street are also fighting for a province they love, or else they'd just fucking move away or deal with it. [editline]19th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=blerb;36014801]Depends where you go. A lot of people here are assholes, admittedly. I speak only English, and you'd be surprised how many people get mad at you for speaking English instead of French. When it's the other way around, they get mad at you for not knowing French and call you names. That's just where I live, though. Like I said, it all depends on area.[/QUOTE] Well said, in Montreal, people usually are accepting of both English and French. Go to Quebec, and the French before all else is very present. I am a French speaker, but I learned English out of fun and usefulness. I live near Montreal, and well, I never seen any problems with English or French speaker. I like to use both anyway. The one who insults English speakers are generally stupid people looking for either a fight or undeserved attention, and sometimes it also goes both ways. I've seen English people nagging French people. It's always funny to see their face when you reply to them in English as well.
[QUOTE=HorizoN;36014706]Yea by forcing people who aren't born in Quebec/France to pay waaay higher tuition for better schooling [in Quebec!] and rioting over an increase in your tuition. Right. [editline]19th May 2012[/editline] On top of that there are also people fighting to separate Quebec from Canada which won't end well for either party. Honestly it seems like its fucking things up really.[/QUOTE] Again as I said to you in another thread, education is of provincial competence and we can make our rules. We pay less to get into schools, but remember we have the highest income tax in Canada. It's only normal to not want to pay for your schooling if you aren't going to stay here after it and pay income tax as the rest of us. I wish you could implement that in your province some day, but for the time being we pay for us.
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;36019045]Again as I said to you in another thread, education is of provincial competence and we can make our rules. We pay less to get into schools, but remember we have the highest income tax in Canada. It's only normal to not want to pay for your schooling if you aren't going to stay here after it and pay income tax as the rest of us. I wish you could implement that in your province some day, but for the time being we pay for us.[/QUOTE] jesus, give it a rest you guys pay like half of what we do in ontario for pretty much everything - seriously, just grow up and accept your role as part of canada
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;36019045]Again as I said to you in another thread, education is of provincial competence and we can make our rules. We pay less to get into schools, but remember we have the highest income tax in Canada. It's only normal to not want to pay for your schooling if you aren't going to stay here after it and pay income tax as the rest of us. I wish you could implement that in your province some day, but for the time being we pay for us.[/QUOTE] There's no fucking way we're going to start discriminating and its sickening that you encourage it.
I still can't get over the name, he's not the Prime Minister, he's a Premier.
[QUOTE=Mon;36022464]jesus, give it a rest you guys pay like half of what we do in ontario for pretty much everything - seriously, just grow up and accept your role as part of canada[/QUOTE] And why do we have to obey or do what other provinces do again? And rising tuition fees is not going to help Canada, it's just going to fill the pocket of a government that spends plenty of money on personal vacations and expensive dinner.
For live stream of protests: [url]http://cutvmontreal.ca/[/url]
Everytime I go in a thread about Québec, we see a bunch of other Canadians saying how Québec is full of assholes and is "the worst province". Kinda ironic considering I rarely see the opposite and I live in Québec too. If you hate a group of people for a truly retarded reason and act hateful to them, why do you even expect them to reply with anything else than hate? Aka, stop being dicks and people won't be dicks at you! Also a great lesson of life! Oh and this law is a terrible law that has the effect of adding fuel to fire.
[QUOTE=HorizoN;36024112]There's no fucking way we're going to start discriminating and its sickening that you encourage it.[/QUOTE] How to miss my point completely
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;36025039]How to miss my point completely[/QUOTE] Encouraging us to charge a fair bit more for people not born in Alberta? How on earth could that end well?
[QUOTE=HorizoN;36025098]Encouraging us to charge a fair bit more for people not born in Alberta? How on earth could that end well?[/QUOTE] I don't even know what's your point anymore. This is a provincial problem, comparing it to your or other's provinces doesn't change anything. "This place does X like Y" doesn't mean every provinces should do X like Y. Hence, it's not because Alberta or Ontario pay more for tuition that Quebec should do the same. We have a right to disagree with such a steep rise in cost, and that's what we did. If your province just accept their high tuition fees, then it's your own problem. And even then, that doesn't justify making a law that restricts everyone's right to protest just so the government can have a break.
[QUOTE=markfu;36010409]On topic I do feel that the law would set a dangerous precedent. [img]http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/550991_10150893477467192_502392191_9702102_366243655_n.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] isn't it from 9gag?
[QUOTE=Mon;36010060]except you can do that without harassing the general population[/QUOTE] Protesters on Law 78: Our Civil Rights are being oppressed! Protesters on other students filing injunctions and trying to go to class: Fuck your Civil Rights! [editline]20th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=HERCULES;36026002]isn't it from 9gag?[/QUOTE] A friend posted it on facebook, so maybe.
[QUOTE=markfu;36027832]Protesters on Law 78: Our Civil Rights are being oppressed! Protesters on other students filing injunctions and trying to go to class: Fuck your Civil Rights! [editline]20th May 2012[/editline] A friend posted it on facebook, so maybe.[/QUOTE] In fact, injunctions are pretty bad. When your school's majority voted to continue the strike, and you just ask for the police/Judge to overrun that decision so that you can personally follow your school, it's not very democratic.
Some of the votes though weren't even very democratic to begin with. If I remember correctly, Concordia's strike vote was based on 5%/some single digit percent of the student body and pro-strikers blocked anti-strikers from voting. At McGill, after the arts strike vote failed, the pro-strike groups organized strike votes by department (which wasn't legitimate since the arts undergrad society overrules their vote (written in the charter)), advertised them poorly to the student body at large so that mainly only pro-strike people would attend, and in some cases harassed anti-strikers who came. Then they blocked some classes using picket lines. If you actually consider education a right, why would you block someone's right to education?
[QUOTE=markfu;36040368]Some of the votes though weren't even very democratic to begin with. If I remember correctly, Concordia's strike vote was based on 5%/some single digit percent of the student body and pro-strikers blocked anti-strikers from voting. At McGill, after the arts strike vote failed, the pro-strike groups organized strike votes by department (which wasn't legitimate since the arts undergrad society overrules their vote (written in the charter)), advertised them poorly to the student body at large so that mainly only pro-strike people would attend, and in some cases harassed anti-strikers who came. Then they blocked some classes using picket lines. If you actually consider education a right, why would you block someone's right to education?[/QUOTE] Well by not doing anything then will poor people won't be able to go to college or university. It's fighting for the free access of education you dingus!
And where will this "free" education come from? Nothing's free in life. They could increase taxes even more, reduce money in other services, or the most common one I hear, tax corporations. I doubt Quebecers would want another tax increase considering how much they've been taxed already, reducing other services is also a bad way to go, especially in Quebec (poor healthcare, poor infrastructure, and I doubt parents would want to give up $7, whoops, 7$ a day daycare.) Taxing corporations, while the most idealistic and least harmful to regular people, would have the adverse affect of those corporations leaving Quebec which would be terrible, considering that Quebec is in massive debt right now (even with equalization payments, its something like 250 billion dollars). It doesn't help that low/free tuition rates won't suddenly make everyone go to school. Quebec now has the highest high-school drop-out rates in the country, which is not affected by the amount it costs to go to a university. In addition, rates of bachelor degree attainment are lower in Quebec than in Ontario (10.6% to 12.7%) with Ontario having much higher current tuition rates. There's a bigger problem in Quebec than the cost of a university education, and I doubt making it free will alleviate this bigger issue. On the other hand though, there are students who won't be able to go to school with the current proposed tuition increase, and honestly, with how corrupt the Quebec government is, we have no guarantee if the money will go to something that'll actually benefit Quebec citizens, although even if they do go through despite the protests there'll be greater scrutiny on the government to actually allocate funds appropriately. The protest movement, in my opinion, isn't much better. If the protesters hadn't resorted to the tactics they're using now they might have gotten somewhere, instead they gave up like a month in and started vandalizing buildings, blocking bridges, throwing rocks off an overpass onto incoming cars, shutting down the metro, etc. Economic disruptions! Of the people who are subsidizing most of your tuition. Smart. Yes, it might be a fringe group in most cases, but that'd hold more water if the student groups would actually condemn the violence, which they don't. Also, I don't buy what the protesters say, that "Its for the future generations". If they did, they'd look at the potential consequences of their actions. First and foremost, they're in it for themselves. Even the PQ who support them are just in it for politics. I doubt they care about the students' plight, they're just playing the students in an attempt to secure votes and get back into power. In conclusion, everyone is terrible. I'd say increase the tuition to reflect current inflation (which the current tuition costs haven't done in what, 20 years? It'd still be much less than the 75% increase proposed now), but then increase the availability of loans and bursuries for now for better accessibility. At the same time, send probes into universities to see where money is going (note: from what I've seen, its not being handled very well). But why am I even typing this out? I never once said anywhere that I was for the tuition hikes, so its relatively clear you can't read.
[QUOTE=markfu;36041931]And where will this "free" education come from? Nothing's free in life. They could increase taxes even more, reduce money in other services, or the most common one I hear, tax corporations. [/quote] Asking free education from the start was stupid, this kind of shit is supported by the CLASSE and fucks up every negotiation possible. [Quote]I doubt Quebecers would want another tax increase considering how much they've been taxed already, reducing other services is also a bad way to go, especially in Quebec (poor healthcare, poor infrastructure, and I doubt parents would want to give up $7, whoops, 7$ a day daycare.) Taxing corporations, while the most idealistic and least harmful to regular people, would have the adverse affect of those corporations leaving Quebec which would be terrible, considering that Quebec is in massive debt right now (even with equalization payments, its something like 250 billion dollars). [/quote] Fair enough, though I think the major problem is that people who get education here just leaves to get better payment in the US or elsewhere in the world. [quote]It doesn't help that low/free tuition rates won't suddenly make everyone go to school. Quebec now has the highest high-school drop-out rates in the country, which is not affected by the amount it costs to go to a university. In addition, rates of bachelor degree attainment are lower in Quebec than in Ontario (10.6% to 12.7%) with Ontario having much higher current tuition rates. There's a bigger problem in Quebec than the cost of a university education, and I doubt making it free will alleviate this bigger issue.[/quote] It's important for those who go to school. There's not much to do about drop-out than wait for them to come to their senses and go back to school. Again, you think the riots are to make education free, while the main point was to get the tuition fees frozen. [quote]On the other hand though, there are students who won't be able to go to school with the current proposed tuition increase, and honestly, with how corrupt the Quebec government is, we have no guarantee if the money will go to something that'll actually benefit Quebec citizens, although even if they do go through despite the protests there'll be greater scrutiny on the government to actually allocate funds appropriately.[/quote] I think the money we could use to remove the rise of tuition fee could be easily found if the government wasn't as fucking corrupt as it is now. [Quote]The protest movement, in my opinion, isn't much better. If the protesters hadn't resorted to the tactics they're using now they might have gotten somewhere, instead they gave up like a month in and started vandalizing buildings, blocking bridges, throwing rocks off an overpass onto incoming cars, shutting down the metro, etc. Economic disruptions! Of the people who are subsidizing most of your tuition. Smart. Yes, it might be a fringe group in most cases, but that'd hold more water if the student groups would actually condemn the violence, which they don't. Also, I don't buy what the protesters say, that "Its for the future generations". If they did, they'd look at the potential consequences of their actions. First and foremost, they're in it for themselves. Even the PQ who support them are just in it for politics. I doubt they care about the students' plight, they're just playing the students in an attempt to secure votes and get back into power. In conclusion, everyone is terrible.[/quote] Protest side : The police are mean and they hit us and the government is oppressing our right of rioting and speech'n shit. Government side : Those students keep blocking the fucking roads and bridges, we need to hold them down with more police. [Quote]I'd say increase the tuition to reflect current inflation (which the current tuition costs haven't done in what, 20 years? It'd still be much less than the 75% increase proposed now), but then increase the availability of loans and bursuries for now for better accessibility. At the same time, send probes into universities to see where money is going (note: from what I've seen, its not being handled very well).[/quote] That is fair enough, but the government DEFINITELY wants to keep the rise as high as it is now or make it higher. The university deal was made during negotiations, and it was generally accepted, but the CLASSE went in and said "No fuck your shit" and then the deals were off. [Quote]But why am I even typing this out? I never once said anywhere that I was for the tuition hikes, so its relatively clear you can't read.[/QUOTE] :C
[QUOTE=Feuver;36043294] It's important for those who go to school. There's not much to do about drop-out than wait for them to come to their senses and go back to school. Again, you think the riots are to make education free, while the main point was to get the tuition fees frozen.[/quote] Its why I think more money should be going to find the problems in the education system. If there could be a way to preempt drop-outs, either through better councilors, better teachers in high school, etc., in other words, a better safety net, we'd be seeing a greater university attendance rate. Of course this is on the government to do, and we all know how efficient government is. Yeah, the problem is that I've heard lots of different goals from various members of the protesting groups. The one that I heard at the beginning was freeze tuition, but then as the protest dragged on I started hearing things like "we want free tuition!" or "down with capitalism/we want communism", I've even heard people wanting anarchy. Another tuition freeze would be ok, but only if, like I said, there were probes into university spending to see if a reallocation of money is all that's needed. If its not, then tuition increases maybe necessary. With Quebec in debt, at some point, something is going to give, and just freezing the tuition again and ignoring the problem for the next 20 years is not going to make it go away. [quote] I think the money we could use to remove the rise of tuition fee could be easily found if the government wasn't as fucking corrupt as it is now.[/quote] I think in the end, pretty much any economic issue comes down to this and honestly I have no proposed solution to this. Its really entrenched in the system, so in some ways I can see where protesters who are anti-government are coming from. They've been jaded by the current regime. On the flip side, I don't think the other parties would be an improvement. They have their own agendas that they'd focus on more than helping those that got them elected. [quote] That is fair enough, but the government DEFINITELY wants to keep the rise as high as it is now or make it higher. The university deal was made during negotiations, and it was generally accepted, but the CLASSE went in and said "No fuck your shit" and then the deals were off.[/quote] Ugh, the government and classe, two large bureaucratic bodies that like to fling shit at each other and make life harder for everyone else. [quote]:C[/QUOTE] That was pointed at cl0ck, but I'm thinking he might be trolling.
High school drop out rate is only that high amongst francophones. Can you blame them? Their school system leaves them woefully unprepared for life in a global economy. You can blame Quebec social isolationism for that. English students tend to fare much better academically, but let's be honest: that doesn't mean much. Francophones aren't dropping out because they're lazy, they're dropping out because they don't see a point. Until the MEQ decides to catch Quebec up with the rest of the world and start offering integration/language courses, I don't forsee this trend changing much. As for the Separation/English-French battle, guys... this fight is pretty much over in Quebec. Only the Quebec equivalent of hicks and outcasts still seriously believe in it. Even Gatineau, a bit of a hotspot due to being on the border between Quebec and Ontario, has become pretty quiet. (For example, the center Gatineau riding that used to be BQ for years voted NDP in the last election) Montreal is even better, with english and french mixing quite harmlessly. tl;dr Quebec Separation is over, please stop talking about in this context as it is irrelevant.
[QUOTE=markfu;36044880] Ugh, the government and classe, two large bureaucratic bodies that like to fling shit at each other and make life harder for everyone else..[/QUOTE] The CLASSE is not even a bureaucratic body, it's an association of students against the rise, now turned into mild terrorist/Vendetta army. They're 50% of the people on strike now, includes me. (Though I'm not willingly part of it, mind you. It was voted democratically) [editline]21st May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=FlakAttack;36045613]High school drop out rate is only that high amongst francophones. Can you blame them? Their school system leaves them woefully unprepared for life in a global economy. You can blame Quebec social isolationism for that. English students tend to fare much better academically, but let's be honest: that doesn't mean much. Francophones aren't dropping out because they're lazy, they're dropping out because they don't see a point. Until the MEQ decides to catch Quebec up with the rest of the world and start offering integration/language courses, I don't forsee this trend changing much. As for the Separation/English-French battle, guys... this fight is pretty much over in Quebec. Only the Quebec equivalent of hicks and outcasts still seriously believe in it. Even Gatineau, a bit of a hotspot due to being on the border between Quebec and Ontario, has become pretty quiet. (For example, the center Gatineau riding that used to be BQ for years voted NDP in the last election) Montreal is even better, with english and french mixing quite harmlessly. tl;dr Quebec Separation is over, please stop talking about in this context as it is irrelevant.[/QUOTE] I don't think it's fair to say mostly French students give up. I was a French student and I haven't seen much drop-outs during highschool or so. Most of them were either because of drugs (They think they could live off selling it) or because they kept saying "Well, I'll never need algebra in the future". Of course, the education system is fucked up. It's mostly logical process, we almost don't even have to remember shit (In Highschool). CEGEP however, is a different thing.
[QUOTE=Feuvert;36025486]I don't even know what's your point anymore. This is a provincial problem, comparing it to your or other's provinces doesn't change anything. "This place does X like Y" doesn't mean every provinces should do X like Y. Hence, it's not because Alberta or Ontario pay more for tuition that Quebec should do the same. We have a right to disagree with such a steep rise in cost, and that's what we did. If your province just accept their high tuition fees, then it's your own problem. And even then, that doesn't justify making a law that restricts everyone's right to protest just so the government can have a break.[/QUOTE] I'm still not getting why he hopes that my province starts making everyone born outside of it pay more. That doesn't make Alberta look good. It doesn't make Quebec look appealing either when they do that either. In fact it makes it look like even more of an undesirable place to live. How funny that a few years ago I was actually considering going there.
Hot damn its like Fox News wrote that headline.
Please lock this thread. put it out of it's misery
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