Why I Feel Bad for the Pepper-Spraying Policeman, Lt. John Pike - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Mattk50;33395436]You would feel bad for him because he has been taught that what he did was OK, and as a result he will suffer for it. Same reason i feel bad for religious fanatics. As for "judgement", we are currently in a society thats supposed to punish for crimes, and if we are to be fair, he should be as well, regardless of any pity (which he wont be, because police are immune). I do think rehabilitation is better than a punishment system though. If you see fit to bypass the system to achieve your goal of justice with internet vigilantism, then you accomplish less than actually changing everything to make sure it stops happening. Im not trying to say that you shouldn't or am defending him as you seem to think i am, but it will accomplish less. You need to understand why you are doing something, not just that you should do it. Holy hell, you people are dogmatic.[/QUOTE] he's a grown man. being 'taught that it was ok' is NO excuse. he still has a lifetime of learning that compassion for your fellow man is a good thing (assuming he didn't grow up in some fucked up household that is!) [editline]23rd November 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=W00tbeer1;33395506]They were blocking the pathway and refused to move. It's not like he just went up to them without warning and sprayed. They consistently asked them and even tried to move them.[/QUOTE] you do realize that still doesn't justify anything???? why not just leave them alone. wait for them to get tired of it and leave. and if they don't get tired of it, maybe listen to their grievances and try to settle things like adults, with words and not violence????????

Well this was worth about five facepalms. I'd say the people we really have to feel sorry for are the rest of this country's various police forces because of people like whoever wrote this making them out to be the army of the devil, and then the (overre)actions of a select few count as proof for far to many people.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;33395562] you do realize that still doesn't justify anything???? why not just leave them alone. wait for them to get tired of it and leave. and if they don't get tired of it, maybe listen to their grievances and try to settle things like adults, with words and not violence???????? [/QUOTE] They are blocking the flow of commute. Just like lets say if the Occupy protestors were sitting in the street refusing to move. The cops would forcefully push them to the side and arrest them. The same concept applies here, students are trying to walk through yet they can't because of these people. They have to forcefully remove them.

[QUOTE=W00tbeer1;33395659]They are blocking the flow of commute. Just like lets say if the Occupy protestors were sitting in the street refusing to move. The cops would forcefully push them to the side and arrest them. The same concept applies here, students are trying to walk through yet they can't because of these people. They have to forcefully remove them.[/QUOTE] from what i saw in the video the amount of area they were blocked is hardly large enough to warrant them being forcefully removed as fast as possible. if anything most the area blocked was the crowd that had gathered to watch this guy pepper spraying people.

[QUOTE=meatballfish;33392478]While I fail to see why he felt the need to pepper-spray them, the protesters did break the law. I'm sure that he could have easily gotten them to move using something less.. painful.[/QUOTE] Minor civil disobedience doesn't mean that a cop with a huge ego gets to throw a hissy fit when people ignore him and assault an entire row of people sitting on the fucking ground.

[QUOTE=Mattk50;33395040]Im not saying it does, but you are missing the point. Humans are only human, and we cant expect all police to do exactly what we consider to be morally and practically correct if we train them to do the exact opposite.[/QUOTE] What the fuck I guarantee you, NO WHERE in his training was he ever lead to believe it's okay to fucking blast pepper spray into the faces of non violent, sitting protestors. Stop this shit. He's not a victim of "the system" he's just a fucking idiot who happens to be a police officer, and made an idiotic decision in the heat of the moment. Plenty of cops do their job professionally to a T, what system are they victims of?

[QUOTE=sami-elite;33392896]If there is one thing that become obvious to me thanks to occupy it's that policing is broken. Their violence against protesters just makes me hope for a more forceful protest to set an example. Aka riot.[/QUOTE] The problem is they're human. I don't think the system calls for this violence but the human factor means that you're going to get some stupid policemen that do stupid things.

Is there even a law against sitting on the side walk? I do it all the time. Chillin' on the curb waiting for a bus or something.

[QUOTE=meatballfish;33392478]I'm sure that he could have easily gotten them to move using something less.. painful.[/QUOTE] What would you suggest? A modified prairie dog vacuum? [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLQ70JJpa0M[/media]

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;33395877]What the fuck I guarantee you, NO WHERE in his training was he ever lead to believe it's okay to fucking blast pepper spray into the faces of non violent, sitting protestors. Stop this shit. He's not a victim of "the system" he's just a fucking idiot who happens to be a police officer, and made an idiotic decision in the heat of the moment. Plenty of cops do their job professionally to a T, what system are they victims of?[/QUOTE] Ah yes, so he is just the "one idiot" that wasnt stopped by any of the other police that were standing there, cheering him on even? This argument is faultier than compwhizzi's forum mod skills.

[QUOTE=W00tbeer1;33395506]They were blocking the pathway and refused to move. It's not like he just went up to them without warning and sprayed. They consistently asked them and even tried to move them.[/QUOTE] Man you have got to tell me what drugs you're taking and where you get your news from. I want to know how you see what you see.

[QUOTE=Mattk50;33396324]Ah yes, so he is just the "one idiot" that wasnt stopped by any of the other police that were standing there, cheering him on even? This argument is faultier than compwhizzi's forum mod skills.[/QUOTE] Oh so now he's a victim of peer pressure? Fucking please, he is a grown man, he has a functioning brain. Feeling bad for this idiot is like feeling bad for someone assaulting you without provocation. Which is exactly what he did. What the other police officers did or did not do is IRRELEVANT. Nobody put a gun to his head and told him to assault some people just because they weren't listening to him. He made that decision himself. Again I reiterate: Countless numbers of officers do their job to a T. Why couldn't this fuckwit? If this were a soldier who beat the shit out of some prisoners, because peer pressure :((, you and the rest of this forum would be foaming at the mouth, rightfully so. This isn't any different, so stop trying to make him look like a victim.

[QUOTE=Mattk50;33394706]Probably none. Now he is going to get fucked over thanks to the system that told him that it was OK to do though. More importantly, we need to stop this happening again.[/QUOTE] Boo fucking hoo, he got a slap on the wrist for what he did, serves him fucking right that he is being targeted with hate.

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;33396429]Man you have got to tell me what drugs you're taking and where you get your news from. I want to know how you see what you see.[/QUOTE] Actually judging from the videos I've seen it does appear that they were sitting on a sidewalk of some sort, but from the angle it's hard to tell if it's actually a sidewalk or just some decorative strip of concrete that universities are prone to slapping everywhere.

[quote][Clark] cannot be dismissed as a total monster; I am sure he loves his wife and children and likes to get drunk. One has to assume that he is a man like me... Something awful must have happened to a human being to be able to put a cattle prod against a woman's breasts. What happens to the woman is ghastly. What happens to the man who does it is in some ways much, much worse.[/quote] I can't believe that no one else is talking about this part of the editorial. Seriously? The guy who cattle prodded women is more of a victim than the women themselves? That line makes me want to stab the guy. [I]No, no, please, don't feel sorry for me; I know I would be the [B]real[/B] victim, but don't feel bad! Getting stabbed is like getting a shot, essentially. It's not that bad.[/I] But seriously fuck that guy.

[QUOTE=meatballfish;33392478]While I fail to see why he felt the need to pepper-spray them, the protesters did break the law. I'm sure that he could have easily gotten them to move using something less.. painful.[/QUOTE] It most likely came from a ranking officer sitting in a desk getting a phone call from the dean to get rid of the mess. If the officer didn't comply he could be at risk of losing his job [editline]23rd November 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Kopimi;33394756]It's his own fault for being so morally weak and easily swayed that he actually made the decision to pepper spray innocent protesters just because his boss said it was OK Once again, and I cannot stress this enough: [b]Getting paid to do bad things does not excuse you from judgement[/b][/QUOTE] Okay suppose he said no, the next guy in line would have to do it, and he would have gotten a write-up or fired. Unless he did it without direct order from a ranking officer, and while I don't approve of his actions, I don't hate the guy.

I can't feel sorry for this man. He perfectly knew what he was doing, and judging by the video it was his own decision.

[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;33404480]Okay suppose he said no, the next guy in line would have to do it, and he would have gotten a write-up or fired. Unless he did it without direct order from a ranking officer, and while I don't approve of his actions, I don't hate the guy.[/QUOTE] If the next guy in line did it, he too, should be judged for his actions If you're willing to do something you know is entirely wrong just so you don't get a writeup at work, you do not have the moral integrity or strength of character that is deserving of a position in which you enforce the law I don't want police officers that are so morally weak they value their paycheck more than the oath they took to serve and protect the people of the United States [editline]23rd November 2011[/editline] What if he had been ordered to kill the person? Would you say the same then? How long can you keep tirelessly stretching this pathetic paycheck argument to defend worse and worse actions?

I'm on page 2 and there's not a single Photoshop.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;33404695]If the next guy in line did it, he too, should be judged for his actions If you're willing to do something you know is entirely wrong just so you don't get a writeup at work, you do not have the moral integrity or strength of character that is deserving of a position in which you enforce the law I don't want police officers that are so morally weak they value their paycheck more than the oath they took to serve and protect the people of the United States [editline]23rd November 2011[/editline] What if he had been ordered to kill the person? Would you say the same then? How long can you keep tirelessly stretching this pathetic paycheck argument to defend worse and worse actions?[/QUOTE] You follow orders when told in the police force, it isn't a job where you voice your opinions. You know that going in to it, does that make all officers morally weak? No. Dirty work has to be done regardless of the circumstances, sure it probably wasn't the most acceptable action, but they were on private property. The students weren't moving and judging from the reports they had been there a while. The owner of the property had every right to ask the officers to use some force to remove the students. Use of lethal force is not permitted on people who are protesting peacefully and rarely authorized even in riots, if the protesters were at a point where it was necessary to use such force then yes.

[QUOTE=meatballfish;33392478] I'm sure that he could have easily gotten them to move using something less.. painful.[/QUOTE] Rubber Bullets or Beanbags.

[QUOTE=TheTalon;33392746]Pepperspray isn't even the bad stuff that some departments (Like Nashville) get to use. They got stuff that makes pepperspray seem like water[/QUOTE] Like rubber bullets, it's a good thing they [i]haven't shot anyone with those yet.[/i] [QUOTE=Sexy Eskimo;33406787]Rubber Bullets or Beanbags.[/QUOTE] Rubber bullets and beanbag guns are FAR more painful, imagine getting hit with a baseball traveling faster than an airliner. They're designed to incapacitate purely on kinetic force and pain response, they force you to your knees out of sheer blinding pain. Doesn't last as long as pepper spray but the initial pain is unimaginable, not to mention that they can dislocate joints, break bones, and cause internal bleeding.

I have no sympathy for the cop. I know he's not evil, but I definitely do not feel that his actions can be justified in any way.

[QUOTE=Pascall;33407901]I have no sympathy for the cop. I know he's not evil, but I definitely do not feel that his actions can be justified in any way.[/QUOTE] No one can be evil, because the word "evil" is an opinion. Anyway, I agree that his actions were pretty much the exact opposite of what his training and manual said to do.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;33394756]It's his own fault for being so morally weak and easily swayed that he actually made the decision to pepper spray innocent protesters just because his boss said it was OK Once again, and I cannot stress this enough: [b]Getting paid to do bad things does not excuse you from judgement[/b][/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment[/url] [b]Don't try to act like you wouldn't do exactly the same in his situation. It's easy to separate the world into "good" and "evil" when you're calm and reading a news article from the comfort of your desk, but very hard to admit we all have the potential to become stormtroopers given the right circumstances.[/b]

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;33408158][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment[/url] [b]Don't try to act like you wouldn't do exactly the same in his situation. It's easy to separate the world into "good" and "evil" when you're calm and reading a news article from the comfort of your desk, but very hard to admit we all have the potential to become stormtroopers given the right circumstances.[/b][/QUOTE] You do have a point. [I]However:[/I] In the Milgram experiment, 2/3 of the people participating administered the final shocks. Yes, that is the majority, but it isn't 100%, either. Also, was Pike [I]told[/I] to pepper spray them, or did he just do it? Seriously, I want to know. If he wasn't, then the experiment doesn't apply as much as you think it does, as it's about how many people would follow orders they would normally object to doing on their own. If he wasn't ordered to, then, well, the experiment doesn't really apply here. In the Stanford Prison experiment, 1/3 were described as cruel and sadistic. A significant amount, but not a majority. Also, well, let me just quote the Wikipedia page: [quote][B]Peer-review[/B] Because it was a field experiment, Zimbardo found it impossible to keep traditional scientific controls in place. He was unable to remain merely a neutral observer, instead influencing the direction of the experiment as its "superintendent". Conclusions and observations drawn by the experimenters were largely subjective and anecdotal, and the experiment would be difficult for other researchers to reproduce. Critics including Erich Fromm challenged how readily the results of the experiment could be generalized. Fromm specifically wrote about how the personality of an individual does in fact affect behavior when imprisoned, using historical examples from the Nazi concentration camps. This ran counter to the study's conclusion that the prison situation itself controls the individual's behavior. Fromm also argued that the amount of sadism in the "normal" subjects could not be determined with the methods employed to screen them.[10] [B]Biases[/B] Some of the experiment's critics argued that participants based their behavior on how they were expected to behave, or modelled it after stereotypes they already had about the behavior of prisoners and guards. In other words, the participants were merely engaging in role-playing. In response, Zimbardo claimed that even if there was role-playing initially, participants internalized these roles as the experiment continued. More directly, though, it has been pointed out that, in contrast to Zimbardo's claim that participants were given no instructions about how to behave, his briefing of the guards gave them a clear sense that they should oppress the prisoners. In this sense the study was an exploration of the effects of tyrannical leadership. In line with this, certain guards, such as one known as "John Wayne", changed their behavior because of wanting to conform to the behavior that Zimbardo was trying to elicit.[/quote] Oh yeah, and there were only 12 'guards'. You would need 30 for it to approach a normal curve. Just sayin'.

There's a reason that when police do this there is a huge news story about it, because they are supposed to know better, however there are a few dumb cops. When protestors get violent and stupid it's mostly passed off because as whiney bitches they don't know much other than they're angry. The point is, both sides have their shit and both have their good qualities, don't generalize everyone there based on that. Generalization is a form of descrimination, and last I checked descrimination isn't a good thing.

[QUOTE=The one that is;33409386]and last I checked descrimination isn't a good thing.[/QUOTE] On a linguistic level, you are [I]so wrong[/I].

[QUOTE=Laferio;33392956]Rioting is the WORST that could happen.. Are you even sane?[/QUOTE] But some describe rioting as "totally badass" and "hella-fuckin'-ballstothewall-awesome."

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;33408158][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment[/url] [b]Don't try to act like you wouldn't do exactly the same in his situation. It's easy to separate the world into "good" and "evil" when you're calm and reading a news article from the comfort of your desk, but very hard to admit we all have the potential to become stormtroopers given the right circumstances.[/b][/QUOTE] Those have always been interesting experiments, but they have had so many holes poked in them over the years. People really need to stop using small social experiments with poor control factors as representative of large numbers of people in day to day life. Saying that everyone would do the same thing in his situation, smacks in the face of the decades of whistle blowers who have risked their job - and potentially safety in some cases - to say "Stop, this is wrong".