Couple found guilty of murder after using Christian parenting book "To Train Up a Child" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Ricool06;42926834]How can so many people agree with this post? It's flat out wrong. The Bible actively encourages violence against children. I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. Child abuse is rife in many Christian sects and further afield in Jewish and Islamic communities. The Abrahamic faiths have no shortage of encouragement to abuse children, whether it be through neglect or violence. Anyone who agreed with this post has either misunderstood the post, or has missed a lot of important verses from the Bible.[/QUOTE] There's no point in this thread. People will just make the argument "The Bible is metaphor/contradictory maaaan," as if it's fucking [I]okay.[/I]

[QUOTE=Shark Bones;42926844]There's no point in this thread. People will just make the argument "The Bible is metaphor/contradictory maaaan," as if it's fucking [I]okay.[/I][/QUOTE] Then those people should stop being so ignorant. It is simply cowardly to appeal to the sensitivities of the faithful in the face of such grotesque behaviour. One may twist the verses of the bible, and redact as much material as they like, but the facts do not change. The Abrahamic faiths systematically exhibit some of the worst behaviour from our species.

[QUOTE=Ricool06;42926834]How can so many people agree with this post? It's flat out wrong. The Bible actively encourages violence against children. I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. Child abuse is rife in many Christian sects and further afield in Jewish and Islamic communities. The Abrahamic faiths have no shortage of encouragement to abuse children, whether it be through neglect or violence. Anyone who agreed with this post has either misunderstood the post, or has missed a lot of important verses from the Bible.[/QUOTE] Using a 'rod' for discipline is hardly child abuse. If it were then a large percentage of people even 2 or 3 generations ago would be considered child abusers. I consider all the idiot children growing up today with no moral foundation child abuse. Teaching kids to have massive self-esteem when they've done nothing to deserve simply sets them up to become narcissistic and self-centered. You know who has the highest self-esteem? Bullies. ([URL]http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/intense-emotions-and-strong-feelings/201010/do-bullies-really-have-low-self-esteem[/URL]) "Research studies have proven that there is no link between kids who behave aggressively toward other kids and low self-esteem. In fact, psychologists have found that kids who behave like bullies have high self-esteem"

[QUOTE=sgman91;42927065]Using a 'rod' for discipline is hardly child abuse. If it were then a large percentage of people even 2 or 3 generations ago would be considered child abusers.[/QUOTE] they were [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] child abuse and spousal abuse have been considered socially acceptable for a long time.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42927090]they were [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] child abuse and spousal abuse have been considered socially acceptable for a long time.[/QUOTE] Then I'm not sure how you define child abuse. If a large portion of people discipline their children in a certain way and those children turn out to be fully functioning, non disturbed, members of society then I see no reason to call that action child abuse.

It is worth noting that some people who read the bible will take it literally, and in fact in some places they teach that the bible is literally true. That's where the problems begin. It's easy to justify poor thinking when you have an authority figure that agrees with you. In this case a book written by god's prophet.

If we are to take the Bible as a whole, in the way it is supposed to be taken, we also have verses such as: "4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord." - Ephesians 6:4 "21 Fathers, do not exasperate your children, so that they will not lose heart." - Colossians 3:21 It seems to me that you have no problem taking the 'bad' verses exclusively in the same way many religious people take the 'good' verses exclusively. Note: by good and bad I don't mean morally good and bad, but the way in which they are often interpreted when out of context. [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] If we are to look at it honestly the Bible teaches that parents are to try and have cordial relations with their children by use of rational teaching and instruction when possible, but not to spare corporeal discipline if necessary.

[QUOTE=sgman91;42927140]Then I'm not sure how you define child abuse. If a large portion of people discipline their children in a certain way and those children turn out to be fully functioning, non disturbed, members of society then I see no reason to call that action child abuse.[/QUOTE] well what do you define as "fully functioning, non disturbed"? i would say children who grow up fearing and obeying authority are far from "non disturbed". i would say people who are disciplined and conform unquestioningly to societal values are not really "functional".

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42927361]well what do you define as "fully functioning, non disturbed"? i would say children who grow up fearing and obeying authority are far from "non disturbed". i would say people who are disciplined and conform unquestioningly to societal values are not really "functional".[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say those descriptions apply to the majority of human history.

[QUOTE=sgman91;42927388]You honestly think a very large portion of older people living today fear authority in a different way than anyone else?[/QUOTE] yea actually if you were punished with physical violence as a child then authority is probably quite a bit more scary to you than someone who was reasoned with or punished non-physically.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42927404]yea actually if you were punished with physical violence as a child then authority is probably quite a bit more scary to you than someone who was reasoned with or punished non-physically.[/QUOTE] You are talking in theoretical possibilities and I'm talking about reality. The majority of people 60+ had physical punishment used against them at some point in time. I wouldn't say those people are more fearful of authority than anyone else. Also, it's logical to have a healthy amount of fear for authority since there are real punishments that can be had. For example, the fear of being fined/jailed is what stops people from cheating on their taxes more than they already do. I don't care about "probably," I care about reality. We can look back on the vast history of humanity and see that very successful and wonderful human societies were built with the help of physical punishment.

[QUOTE=sgman91;42927431]You are talking in theoretical possibilities and I'm talking about reality. The majority of people 60+ had physical punishment used against them at some point in time. I wouldn't say those people are more fearful of authority than anyone else. Also, it's logical to have a healthy amount of fear for authority since there are real punishments that can be had. For example, the fear of being fined/jailed is what stops people from cheating on their taxes more than they already do. I don't care about "probably," I care about reality. We can look back on the vast history of humanity and see that very successful and wonderful human societies were built with the help of physical punishment.[/QUOTE] what successful and wonderful human societies are you talking about?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42927480]what successful and wonderful human societies are you talking about?[/QUOTE] Any of them before about 1970. Physical punishment has been the norm and having a totally negative view of it is the aberration. I know of no human society that banned/socially agreed that all physical punishment is wrong before the mid 1900s.

[QUOTE=sgman91;42927488]Any of them before about 1970.[/QUOTE] so you think society has gone downhill since 1970....because of a lack of physical punishment?

There's a petition here to stop Amazon from selling this book. [url]https://www.change.org/petitions/amazon-com-remove-the-book-to-train-up-a-child-by-michael-and-debi-pearl?utm_source=action_alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=40944&alert_id=XNqxEFvTdA_KRFfCPOavC[/url]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42927497]so you think society has gone downhill since 1970....because of a lack of physical punishment?[/QUOTE] Whether society has gone downhill or not since then is irrelevant to my argument. There are so many other, more important factors, that it would be all but impossible to pin it all on whether people use physical punishment. My claim is that societies have been able to produce self-sufficient, productive, and mentally stable members of society while using corporeal punishment all the while and any discipline that consistently produces self-sufficient, productive, and mentally stable people isn't child abuse.

[QUOTE=sgman91;42927582]Whether society has gone downhill or not since then is irrelevant to my argument. There are so many other, more important factors, that it would be all but impossible to pin it all on whether people use physical punishment. My claim is that societies have been able to produce self-sufficient, productive, and happy members of society while using corporeal punishment all the while.[/QUOTE] *as long as you were a majority group and conformed to arbitrary and authoritarian law. the whole purpose of beating your child from a societal standpoint is to create a cohesive society that submits to violent force administered in the name of justice. this is why the old testament endorsed beating your child. the bible was written by priests and religious institutions as a means of controlling the hebrew societies. they used religion as a means to create a society.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42927632]*as long as you were a majority group and conformed to arbitrary and authoritarian law. the whole purpose of beating your child from a societal standpoint is to create a cohesive society that submits to violent force administered in the name of justice. this is why the old testament endorsed beating your child. the bible was written by priests and religious institutions as a means of controlling the hebrew societies. they used religion as a means to create a society.[/QUOTE] We aren't going to get anywhere if you stick to theoretical bullshit without any relation to the real world. You haven't, in any way, responded to my actual argument.

[QUOTE=sgman91;42927660]We aren't going to get anywhere if you stick to theoretical bullshit without any relation to the real world. You haven't, in any way, responded to my actual argument.[/QUOTE] (i'm saying that society hasn't been happy or good for the last several thousand years)

If society hasn't been happy or good since before recorded time, then what [I]has[/I] it been?

[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;42927725]If society hasn't been happy or good since before recorded time, then what [I]has[/I] it been?[/QUOTE] mostly miserable from what i know about history.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42927684](i'm saying that society hasn't been happy or good for the last several thousand years)[/QUOTE] Honestly, I don't think you can be more elitist than thinking no human society before your own was happy or good simply because they didn't completely agree with your own opinion. You are making such a bigger claim than I am. You are saying that, because of the use of corporeal punishment, no human society has ever been happy or good before the very modern era.

[QUOTE=sgman91;42927757]Honestly, I don't think you can be more elitist than thinking no human society before your own was happy or good simply because they didn't completely agree with your own opinion.[/QUOTE] no society was terrible in a lot of ways. it's only been in the last century or two that lifespan has risen above 30-40(i think natural human lifespan is around 70), that we are meeting any nutritional standard, that we don't live in constant fear of war and tyrannical governance...

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42927787]no society was terrible in a lot of ways. it's only been in the last century or two that lifespan has risen above 30-40(i think natural human lifespan is around 70), that we are meeting any nutritional standard, that we don't live in constant fear of war and tyrannical governance...[/QUOTE] I don't even know what you're arguing against. When did I ever say that using corporeal punishment would create absolute perfection, no matter the outside factors?

[QUOTE=Explosions;42921966]I don't understand. I said that lying couldn't have been against gods orders because god had no orders during the time of genesis. I also said that god holds contradictory standards that varied by chapter. For instance, in genesis 9:5, he calls for the blood of killers. Yet he forbids anyone from harming Cain, a murderer.[/QUOTE] It's hard to explain. His actions are bad if you're looking at those stories from the perspective of an individual instead of the divine. It constantly mentions that the earth was shitty in comparison to the afterlife. Abraham probably proceeded since he had nothing to lose.

Jeez, Yawmwen, you're like the ultimate pessimist. [I]Society is horrible... people have always been miserable... life sucks and it always has...[/I]

[QUOTE=sgman91;42927832]I don't even know what you're arguing against. When did I ever say that using corporeal punishment would create absolute perfection, no matter the outside factors?[/QUOTE] you didn't. i'm saying corporal punishment is wrong, you said it's ok because it has created happy societies, so i said it obviously hasn't since most societies as of the last several thousand years have been far from happy. can you provide evidence that society was happier with corporal punishment then it would have been without? [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=S31-Syntax;42927850]Jeez, Yawmwen, you're like the ultimate pessimist. [I]Society is horrible... people have always been miserable... life sucks and it always has...[/I][/QUOTE] pre-agricultural society was ok. today's society is...ok i guess. i am optimistic about the future of society.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42927853]you didn't. i'm saying corporal punishment is wrong, you said it's ok because it has created happy societies, so i said it obviously hasn't since most societies as of the last several thousand years have been far from happy. can you provide evidence that society was happier with corporal punishment then it would have been without? [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] pre-agricultural society was ok. today's society is...ok i guess. i am optimistic about the future of society.[/QUOTE] Here's my claim: [QUOTE]My claim is that societies have been able to produce self-sufficient, productive, and mentally stable members of society while using corporeal punishment all the while and any discipline that consistently produces self-sufficient, productive, and mentally stable people isn't child abuse.[/QUOTE] I must have taken out the happy part during your post. Obviously all these claims are relative to the time they occur in. You can't directly compare the mental state of people from war torn Germany after WWI to modern day citizens of the US.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42927853] [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] pre-agricultural society was ok. today's society is...ok i guess. i am optimistic about the future of society.[/QUOTE] Based on what? Whats changed between pre-agricultural and now, and what do you think has changed or will change between now and the "future of society"?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42927090]they were [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] child abuse and spousal abuse have been considered socially acceptable for a long time.[/QUOTE] To be fair on them, people back then weren't aware of the effects of smacking kids, back then it was just seen as a way of keeping kids in line until modern psychology came along and showed that it fucks kids up.