Tennessee gay couple physically attacked by pastor and deacons for trying to go to church, pastor wa
177 replies, posted
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32642034]I don't need to know why. A belief grounded in peace or love doesn't need justification. It doesn't need a reason.
If you need a reason to believe what you believe, then you aren't very morally centered, and you don't understand yourself.[/quote]
This is one of the best things I've ever read. Fantastic. Now I'm going to start believing in a celestial teacup, a la Russell, because you've told me it'll mean I'm 'morally centred'. Thanks!
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32642034]I am posting to share ideas. I don't care if nor expect anyone accepts my ideas. [/quote]
Then why are you replying to me?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32642034]Not really because then Jesus goes along to break several laws in the bible. The point of that verse is to say you should follow what the old testament says, but it's no biggie if you don't.
Read my post earlier about the condemned woman. Jesus broke the Law of Moses by not letting her be stoned.
John 15: You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.
Matthew 7 1-5:“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Matthew 6 14-15: For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.[/quote]
Or maybe the point is that the Bible was written by many different people in a society that was completely different to any that currently exist, and using it to dictate our lives is absurd.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32642034]Do they need to be great? I try to contribute how I can. I don't need someone else to judge whatever contributions I make.[/quote]
But when you go on about how great you are as a result of your twisted version of a religion, then, yes, it's pertinent.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32642034]No they aren't. Synonyms have similar meaning but are used in different context. For example, beautiful has the synonym elegant, but elegant and beautiful are not quite the same thing. There is a subtle difference between the two words that separates them.[/QUOTE]
As I did explicitly say, many synonyms have the exact meaning in certain contexts. If I were to say, for example, "That woman's crazy," and, "That woman's mental," they would mean the same thing. 'Beautiful' and 'elegant' are clearly two distinct words in any given context, so that example is terrible.
My point was that chauvinism, [i]in the context it was provided[/i] (which seems to be the part you're missing), meant that same thing as misogyny.
Edit:
Also, I just want to stress this bit here:
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32642034]If you need a reason to believe what you believe, then you aren't very morally centered, and you don't understand yourself.[/quote]
Not all of us need to rely on religions that consistently violate human rights on a massive scale, or books that are hopelessly contradictory and outdated to promote 'peace or love'. Some of us are ethical people without the help of these things. Some of us choose our on moral standards dependent on our life experiences and empathy. I fail to see how that makes me someone who isn't 'morally centred' or 'doesn't understand herself'. I fail to see how deciding my own ethical code after much thought and discussion makes me inferior to someone who cherry-picks shit arbitrarily out of book for no reason.
[QUOTE=devotchkade;32649948]
Not all of us need to rely on religions that consistently violate human rights on a massive scale, or books that are hopelessly contradictory and outdated to promote 'peace or love'. Some of us are ethical people without the help of these things. Some of us choose our on moral standards dependent on our life experiences and empathy. I fail to see how that makes me someone who isn't 'morally centred' or 'doesn't understand herself'. I fail to see how deciding my own ethical code after much thought and discussion makes me inferior to someone who cherry-picks shit arbitrarily out of book for no reason.[/QUOTE]
No one needs religion to tell themselves their morals. Are you reading my posts or are you just trying to find a reason to post that common atheist argument? I'm an atheist in case you don't know, and what you are saying is near exact what I'm talking about.
If your morality is centered on love and tolerance you don't NEED justification from anyone. You believe and feel what you feel because you do, not because some external force said it was right. When you are morally centered, I mean that you are in tune with your core values, that you don't take someone else's idea of morality as your own, rather you find your morality from inside yourself.
The words of the bible are only a tool, to examine those values and see what values ring true with you. As long as you don't take it literally, and take it as simply something to relate to and help you search yourself, the bible is great for a christian.
[editline]6th October 2011[/editline]
On the flip side of this is hate. In order to hate you have to have real justification. That's why these people try and twist the bible's message. If you want to kill someone, or you want to hate someone, you better have a good reason otherwise it won't jive with anyone.
Love is a default in every person, it comes without meaning and without reason, it is simply there. Hate requires a reason.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32650120]
If your morality is centered on love and tolerance you don't NEED justification from anyone. You believe and feel what you feel because you do, not because some external force said it was right. When you are morally centered, I mean that you are in tune with your core values, that you don't take someone else's idea of morality as your own, rather you find your morality from inside yourself. [/QUOTE]
How do you possibly find morality within yourself when it is sociologically and cultural constructed?
How do you deal with the question of abortion? Where does this 'need not be justified' love come into play with that?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32650120]No one needs religion to tell themselves their morals. Are you reading my posts or are you just trying to find a reason to post that common atheist argument? I'm an atheist in case you don't know, and what you are saying is near exact what I'm talking about.[/quote]
I [i]am[/i] reading what your posts, and it's not sounding a whole lot like atheism. Even if you are an atheist, that hardly means that we believe in the same thing; I can still take exception to what you're saying. For what it's worth, I am actually [i]not[/i] an atheist.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32650120]If your morality is centered on love and tolerance you don't NEED justification from anyone. You believe and feel what you feel because you do, not because some external force said it was right. When you are morally centered, I mean that you are in tune with your core values, that you don't take someone else's idea of morality as your own, rather you find your morality from inside yourself. [/quote]
So... instead you pick shit out of a Bible for fun? What?
Love and tolerance are both socially constructed things. If we lived in a different society, those ideas would not be around. This isn't something that comes from [i]deep within yourself[/i], if only you were in tune with your inner compass or whatever.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32650120]The words of the bible are only a tool, to examine those values and see what values ring true with you. As long as you don't take it literally, and take it as simply something to relate to and help you search yourself, the bible is great for a christian.[/quote]
The Bible is great for a Christian? So why are you, as an atheist, arguing for its usage? Also, no. Whilst it's true that some Christians are tolerant and loving, I frankly don't see how they get that out of a Bible, when so much of it is about hatred, and denying people their rights. The kind of cherry-picking you're advocating is the reason why a lot of Christians maintain that gay people are sinners, whilst they eat their seafood and wear their mixed-blend fabrics every day (which the Bible also says is a sin).
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32650120][editline]6th October 2011[/editline]
On the flip side of this is hate. In order to hate you have to have real justification. That's why these people try and twist the bible's message. If you want to kill someone, or you want to hate someone, you better have a good reason otherwise it won't jive with anyone.
Love is a default in every person, it comes without meaning and without reason, it is simply there. Hate requires a reason.[/QUOTE]
I refer to Contag's post for this one:
[QUOTE=Contag;32651181]How do you possibly find morality within yourself when it is sociologically and cultural constructed?
How do you deal with the question of abortion? Where does this 'need not be justified' love come into play with that?[/QUOTE]
Love is not a 'default', as nice as that sounds. How loving do you think sociopaths are as a default?
[QUOTE=Contag;32651181]How do you possibly find morality within yourself when it is sociologically and cultural constructed?[/quote]
Because you do? It doesn't matter if it's sociologically constructed or not, it's something that's within you.
[quote]How do you deal with the question of abortion? Where does this 'need not be justified' love come into play with that?[/QUOTE]
You think about it. It's that simple. You seriously just think about it and your feelings will decide how you feel about it.
[QUOTE=devotchkade;32651822]
So... instead you pick shit out of a Bible for fun? What?[/quote]
I have a fascination with theology myself.
[quote]Love and tolerance are both socially constructed things. If we lived in a different society, those ideas would not be around. This isn't something that comes from [i]deep within yourself[/i], if only you were in tune with your inner compass or whatever. [/quote]
Yea it is. Humans love by default. If you don't think so look at a child, or someone sheltered from the world. We are all born loving and caring with only small exception. Hatred is something that comes later, when your psyche becomes wounded.
[quote]The Bible is great for a Christian? So why are you, as an atheist, arguing for its usage?[/quote]
I'm arguing that the new testament is inherently about tolerance and forgiveness. I'm not saying anyone should use it.
[quote]Also, no. Whilst it's true that some Christians are tolerant and loving, I frankly don't see how they get that out of a Bible, when so much of it is about hatred, and denying people their rights. The kind of cherry-picking you're advocating is the reason why a lot of Christians maintain that gay people are sinners, whilst they eat their seafood and wear their mixed-blend fabrics every day (which the Bible also says is a sin). [/quote]
Name a new testament verse that is tells people that they should hate, rather than forgive. Show me a verse that says anything about taking away someones rights.
The old testament was the laws of moses, the laws of judaism, but that was all struck down in the new testament.
[quote]Love is not a 'default', as nice as that sounds. How loving do you think sociopaths are as a default?[/QUOTE]
We are all sociopaths, that's OUTSTANDING logic.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32658964]
We are all sociopaths, that's OUTSTANDING logic.[/QUOTE]
I'm just about to head off to bed, so I won't reply to everything you wrote, yet, but I do want to say this. I did not ever say that every single person in the entire world is a sociopath. I was replying to this:
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32650120]
Love is a default in every person, it comes without meaning and without reason, it is simply there. Hate requires a reason.[/QUOTE]
You claim here that love 'is a default' in EVERY SINGLE PERSON. I countered that claim with the existence of sociopaths/psychopaths, who, by very definition, experience no empathy or remorse, which is why they disproportionately commit violent crimes. A lot of them commit sadistic crimes in their youth, like killing and torturing animals for fun (which is a big red flag for people who work with those with mental illnesses). Their existence disproves your claim, because sociopaths are people. I did not ever say that everyone who every existed was a sociopath, and you're either clearly distorting what I'm writing, or you need to re-read my posts.
Seriously:
"Love is not a 'default', as nice as that sounds. How loving do you think sociopaths are as a default?"
=/=
"All people are sociopaths."
ffs.
[QUOTE=devotchkade;32659179]I'm just about to head off to bed, so I won't reply to everything you wrote, yet, but I do want to say this. I did not ever say that every single person in the entire world is a sociopath. I was replying to this:
You claim here that love 'is a default' in EVERY SINGLE PERSON. I countered that claim with the existence of sociopaths/psychopaths, who, by very definition, experience no empathy or remorse, which is why they disproportionately commit violent crimes. A lot of them commit sadistic crimes in their youth, like killing and torturing animals for fun (which is a big red flag for people who work with those with mental illnesses). Their existence disproves your claim, because sociopaths are people. I did not ever say that everyone who every existed was a sociopath, and you're either clearly distorting what I'm writing, or you need to re-read my posts.
Seriously:
"Love is not a 'default', as nice as that sounds. How loving do you think sociopaths are as a default?"
=/=
"All people are sociopaths."
ffs.[/QUOTE]
Have you ever heard that every rule has an exception?
There you go.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32659230]Have you ever heard that every rule has an exception?
There you go.[/QUOTE]
Right, except that you claimed it was the default in EVERYONE, with no mention of an exception. And also because that 'everyone is inherently loving and kind and shits unicorns and sparkles' thing isn't a 'rule', it's just something you think with no evidence whatsoever.
I seriously don't know how to talk to you when you're reading that crazy shit out of my posts, which is clearly not what I was talking about at all.
ofc because they're pastors and deacons this thread turned into a religion hating circlejerk
[QUOTE=devotchkade;32659299]Right, except that you claimed it was the default in EVERYONE, with no mention of an exception. And also because that 'everyone is inherently loving and kind and shits unicorns and sparkles' thing isn't a 'rule', it's just something you think with no evidence whatsoever.
I seriously don't know how to talk to you when you're reading that crazy shit out of my posts, which is clearly not what I was talking about at all.[/QUOTE]
Wow, you are a miserable human being huh?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32660772]Wow, you are a miserable human being huh?[/QUOTE]
What, because I don't believe everyone is inherently saintly, as proven by the existence of sociopaths/psychopaths? And because I acknowledge that humans learn cultural ideals like love and tolerance?
lol. That doesn't make me 'miserable', but thanks.
Proper socialization is a huge part of learning for children, love is not some 'default' that everyone has.
I mean really, how the fuck do you explain the millions upon millions of atrocities committed?
Or the apathy of the west regarding their manufacturing base?
[QUOTE=Contag;32664614]
I mean really, how the fuck do you explain the millions upon millions of atrocities committed?
Or the apathy of the west regarding their manufacturing base?[/QUOTE]
Because some people are not in touch with themselves. Each of us gets wounded, or hurt psychologically that separates us from our inner humanity. Some people are more wounded, and have a greater capacity for hate.
[editline]7th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=devotchkade;32664594]What, because I don't believe everyone is inherently saintly, as proven by the existence of sociopaths/psychopaths? And because I acknowledge that humans learn cultural ideals like love and tolerance?
lol. That doesn't make me 'miserable', but thanks.[/QUOTE]
I apologize, that was an incredibly pretentious thing to say. I don't know you.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32666297]
I apologize, that was an incredibly pretentious thing to say. I don't know you.[/QUOTE]
No worries. Suffice it to say that I disagree with what you're arguing, but this seems to be going around in circles, so maybe I'll put a halt to it here.
I truly wish I had your faith in mankind. I do.
[QUOTE=devotchkade;32674055]No worries. Suffice it to say that I disagree with what you're arguing, but this seems to be going around in circles, so maybe I'll put a halt to it here.
I truly wish I had your faith in mankind. I do.[/QUOTE]
I don't have a lot of faith in mankind. Too many people ignore their true nature because of society and their own personal wounds. I just know that love and compassion is in just about every human being, if you search.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32674798]I just know that love and compassion is in just about every human being, if you search.[/QUOTE]
That, to me, counts as faith in mankind.
That's why you don't go somewhere where everybody hates you, dumbasses.
[QUOTE=Rick Ross;32683906]That's why you don't go somewhere where everybody hates you, dumbasses.[/QUOTE]
Good advice for you to get off facepunch
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32650120]No one needs religion to tell themselves their morals.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I can see that, seeing as how people do all kinda morally questionable shit every day.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;32685354]Good advice for you to get off facepunch[/QUOTE]
What did they expect, really?
It's like a black guy going to a KKK meeting and expecting everything to be just fine.
[QUOTE=Rick Ross;32686807]What did they expect, really?
It's like a black guy going to a KKK meeting and expecting everything to be just fine.[/QUOTE]
No, it's not.
Are you really arguing that it's the victims' fault for having their rights violated? By your logic, all African Americans pre-civil rights movement should have just packed up and moved out of their home country, to some imaginary place where no-one hated them.
[QUOTE=Rick Ross;32686807]What did they expect, really?
It's like a black guy going to a KKK meeting and expecting everything to be just fine.[/QUOTE]
Yeah fuckin gays don't belong in the house of god REPENT
your posts are dumb
[QUOTE=devotchkade;32687089]No, it's not.
Are you really arguing that it's the victims' fault for having their rights violated? By your logic, all African Americans pre-civil rights movement should have just packed up and moved out of their home country, to some imaginary place where no-one hated them.[/QUOTE]
By going to his father's (who we can probably safely say he's had problems with before) church, yes, because he was not trying to avoid conflict.
[editline]8th October 2011[/editline]
probably was his first time going to church in a decade, too
[QUOTE=Rick Ross;32688027]
probably was his first time going to church in a decade, too[/QUOTE]
why, because gay people can't be religious?
lol stop posting
[QUOTE=Rick Ross;32686807]What did they expect, really?
It's like a black guy going to a KKK meeting and expecting everything to be just fine.[/QUOTE]
And women who get raped are asking for it.
dhfg
[QUOTE=Rick Ross;32688747]dhfg[/QUOTE]
best post you've ever made
I messed up an automerge and for some reason a mod deleted the second post. Anyway,
I know the guy isn't religious because if he were he would have gone to a different church so he could enjoy the service outside the presence of his father who resents him. He went to his father's church instead, not for the service, but to show him there is nothing he can do about his sexuality by bringing his boyfriend to his father's place of work. So as a result his father kicked his ass.
That is more than likely what happened. He, probably, had it coming, and is a dumbass for not knowing that real men solve problems with fists.
[QUOTE=Rick Ross;32689047]I messed up an automerge and for some reason a mod deleted the second post. Anyway,
I know the guy isn't religious because if he were he would have gone to a different church so he could enjoy the service outside the presence of his father who resents him. He went to his father's church instead, not for the service, but to show him there is nothing he can do about his sexuality by bringing his boyfriend to his father's place of work. So as a result his father kicked his ass.
That is more than likely what happened. He, probably, had it coming, and is a dumbass for not knowing that real men solve problems with fists.[/QUOTE]
Even if that were the case, he was justified in doing it.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32689266]Even if that were the case, he was justified in doing it.[/QUOTE]
Yep, but its not like it was like, "Hey a gay couple! Get 'em!" because that's what everyone seems to be treating it as.
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