• Polls may actually underestimate Trump's support, study finds
    102 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49373381]Frankly, we could debate his actual efficacy at some length. He has certainly undertaken some impressive ventures, but he's also made incredible blunders, and on a personal level I am not at all convinced of his ability. Even entertaining the notion that he is a capable economic leader, however, I simply cannot set aside the comments he's made about minorities, and Muslims in particular. The president needs to respect the basic articles of the constitution-- he needs to respect the ideals and principles of our nation. Outlawing major world religions and treating its followers as second class citizens at best, and outright enemies of the state at worst, flies in the face of everything America is supposed to uphold. Capable leader or no, what Trump has actively called for is, for lack of a better term, anti-American. It is offensive on every possible level, and sets us on a very dangerous path. Simply not worth the risk. I would rather have a completely incompetent leader than an actively oppressive one.[/QUOTE] That's where my main concern lies as well. If he was a humble person like sanders, he'd be the best candidate imo. He's too bashful and hateful. [editline]23rd December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=GunFox;49373355]How is he the most capable candidate? How does he beat out Sanders, who is a career politician that has spent the past several decades fighting for the under privileged? Explain to me how a wealthy racist sociopath is a better candidate for chief diplomat and commander of our military than a guy who fights, thanklessly, for decades to defend the poor and less fortunate. Do tell.[/QUOTE] Look up trump man. From his 80s to his bankruptcy and recovery. You seem to focus on sanders humility but no one knows negotiation and economy like trump. There's multiple sides to every person. I don't have the time to tell you why there are some things trump would do better than sanders and vice versa. History is out there already. Do you research as well.
Well, I think we can at least both agree that neither party is truly small government. They lay a heavy hand in different arenas, for the most part, but it's still a heavy hand. As to whether or not we feel that heavy hand is necessary is a matter of personal opinion, but it's simply not accurate to say that Democrats are authoritarian, or at least any more authoritarian than Republicans.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49373442]Well, I think we can at least both agree that neither party is truly small government. They lay a heavy hand in different arenas, for the most part, but it's still a heavy hand.[/QUOTE] I would definitely agree that the modern republican party's bark is way worse than it's bite although I do think that the right has a base of support for small government that the left just doesn't have. The general leftist argument to an issue is to either A) spend more government money on it or B) regulate it, both ways that increase government control. That stands for essentially every issue. Even the drug issue is pushed forward as a way to increase government funding with high levels of taxation. Other issues like the education system, the healthcare system, the economy, poverty, joblessness, etc. all apply as well. On the other hand, the arguments from the right often come down to dismantling the government, taking away regulation, or growing the economy through private growth. Now, I would argue that the conservative leadership rarely actually follows these goals because it's not very fun to argue for giving people less free stuff, but those are still the stated methods. [editline]22nd December 2015[/editline] I'm not even arguing which side is right, just that the left's method is almost always to increase government control while the right's is to decrease it or use the private sector: Healthcare: - The left ideally wants to nationalize it, the ultimate form of government control - The right wants to create a working private system. Education: - The left wants to increase funding and centralize control over curriculum. - The right does not want to increase funding nearly as much and wants to decentralize control over curriculum. Joblessness: - The left wants to hire mass numbers of people through government job programs (Bernie wants a 1 trillion dollar infrastructure program done by hiring unemployed people through the government) - The right wants to grow the economy and decrease taxation to make more private jobs That's just three big overarching issues right off the top of my head, but it goes on and on bar a few specific topics like drugs (The arguments over abortion and gay marriage are more about social definitions, not government control. Thinking that fetus' should have rights because they're people with rights isn't arguing for more government control. It's arguing that their rights be recognized. Gay marriage is about what marriage is. The right generally thinks it's a specific defined thing, and the left thinks it's just useful a social contract that can be change whenever society wants it to.)
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49373313]It's important to note that the Right, as a generalized entity, support: 1) Limiting access to reproductive healthcare for women, especially where it concerns abortions. 2) Heavy drug enforcement on even largely harmless recreational substances like Marijuana 3) Restricting the rights of homosexuals to enjoy the same legal and personal privileges as heterosexuals Along with many other very blatant restrictions on personal liberties, or conditional restrictions on personal liberties for certain groups of people. The right may represent a less regulated economy when compared to the left, but in terms of personal liberties it's no contest. Today's Conservative is [I]hardly[/I] "small government."[/QUOTE] Government regulations like housing regulations have a lot more impact on your average person, whether they be male or female,'s day-to-day life than stuff like restricting abortion. Meanwhile, with abortion, you have to have some personal stake in some capacity to care if someone can get an abortion and abortions themselves are uncommon. Andrew the welder with a son and wife is not going to give the slightest fuck that Rachel the all-A student got accidentally got knocked up or Jayzmine the crack addict is pregnant with another crack baby and both of them want an abortion. [quote]Looking at the posts in this thread being predominantly anti-Trump, you can see why people wouldn't admit to liking him in person. There is such a stigma to supporting him that this, coupled with the recent tendency for the left to act in an authoritarian manner, would obviously lead college-educated adults to be shy in admitting support. I, for one, have a number of friends who have said that they wouldn't associate with anyone who supports even one of Trump's policies, so I stay relatively quiet on the matter (I like his protectionist stance on an economic level). Sure they're authoritarian lefties but I like their company when we aren't talking politics. I know I'm from the UK and so don't have any skin in the election, however its interesting to watch and to some extent affects me through the international repercussions of the election.[/quote] IMO, today's generation is a bit more conservative than we think. This whole authoritarian leftist is just a fad millennials are hopping to on to get their names in the history books and to look more compassionate than their groggy elders. Once they start realizing they blew several years trying to "protect" a minority they've barely interacted with in their lives and, after some soul-searching, found they secretly dislike, the whole thing will start crashing down. What's going on right now with the left-wing reminds me of some old studies I read on right-wing Christians and abortion. Several people interviewed said that they didn't care about abortion, but parroted their churches' views that abortion is wrong in order to blend in with their church "family". The left-wing is behaving similar to the old right-wing Christians are right now in terms of zealousness, so I suspect that the same thing is happening with the left.
[QUOTE=GunFox;49373259]Such as?[/QUOTE][QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49372421][url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/25/campaign.wrap/index.html?iref=hpmostpop]landed under sniper fire in Bosnia[/url][/QUOTE]Good place to start...
[QUOTE=redBadger;49373413] Look up trump man. From his 80s to his bankruptcy and recovery. You seem to focus on sanders humility but no one knows negotiation and economy like trump. There's multiple sides to every person. I don't have the time to tell you why there are some things trump would do better than sanders and vice versa. History is out there already. Do you research as well.[/QUOTE] He wants to defund planned parenthood due to abortions. First up, abortions are a few percent of what planned parenthood does and none of the funding he is pulling, supports that aspect of their business in any fashion. They are a non profit and are, legally, obligated to utilize funds donated in the manner ordered. They ultimately save us obscene sums by, surprise, allowing parenthood to be planned. This prevents untold amounts of suffering from unwanted babies and ultimately saves significant sums of money for tax payers. [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/09/24/defunding-planned-parenthood-would-actually-increase-government-spending/[/url] [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17978110[/url] He wants to cut the entire department of education and make funding entirely local. Given that local funding for public schooling is heavily dependent on local property taxes, this would take an already unequal system of public schooling and make the problem infinitely worse. Poor communities would have an even greater tax burden to support children who absolutely didn't ask to be poor. Educational attainment is one of the major factors in reducing crime, which also saves obscene sums of money for the tax payer. [url]http://eml.berkeley.edu/~moretti/lm46.pdf[/url] In 2011 he did not support gay marriage or even support equal benefits for same sex partners. He would like reduce corporate taxes from thirty nine percent to zero percent in order to create jobs. This is eleven percent of our tax revenue. Additional jobs are fine, but an eleven percent gap in the tax revenue is massive and he doesn't present any kind of plan to cover this gap. He believes that capital punishment has a deterrent effect. It doesn't. Countless studies have shown this and he chooses to ignore them. [url]http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=935102[/url] He believes the EPA to be a "disgrace" because they constantly come out with new regulations. Economically I'm sure his solution of destroying them will work out. We'll also look like China. We have to live on this planet, we should probably not destroy it in the interest of profit. "Autism has become an epidemic. It has gotten totally out of control. I am totally in favor of vaccines. But I want smaller doses over a longer period of time. You take this little baby, and you pump--I mean, it looks like it's meant for a horse, not for a child. Just the other day, a 2-year-old child went to have the vaccine, and got a fever; now is autistic. I'm in favor of vaccines, do them over a longer period of time, same amount. And I think you're going to see a big impact on autism." I don't even need to talk about that quote, do I? His entire stance on immigration is just straight up insane. Illegal immigrants commit almost no crime. They are among the most law abiding people BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO BE DEPORTED. A wall is financial insanity and no, he won't be able to get Mexico to pay for it. Mexico straight up doesn't have the money to build a wall across the border. We exploit illegal immigrants, not the other way around. It isn't a difficult concept if you aren't a xenophobic prick. In terms of health care, he was once totally reasonable and favored a system resembling Canada. Now he wants to repeal The ACA and make the market as free as possible, which totally wasn't what landed us up shit creek in the first place or anything. Sarcasm. The guy is insane and when he talks about how he doesn't care about political correctness, bear in mind that the President is our chief diplomat. That is literally his primary function. He is the unified face of our nation. Even the military authority granted to him was only done in order to prevent a military coup d'etat. [editline]23rd December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49373791]Good place to start...[/QUOTE] If that could possibly be any more minor, I don't see how. [editline]23rd December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;49373451]I would definitely agree that the modern republican party's bark is way worse than it's bite although I do think that the right has a base of support for small government that the left just doesn't have. The general leftist argument to an issue is to either A) spend more government money on it or B) regulate it, both ways that increase government control. That stands for essentially every issue. Even the drug issue is pushed forward as a way to increase government funding with high levels of taxation. Other issues like the education system, the healthcare system, the economy, poverty, joblessness, etc. all apply as well. On the other hand, the arguments from the right often come down to dismantling the government, taking away regulation, or growing the economy through private growth. Now, I would argue that the conservative leadership rarely actually follows these goals because it's not very fun to argue for giving people less free stuff, but those are still the stated methods. [editline]22nd December 2015[/editline] I'm not even arguing which side is right, just that the left's method is almost always to increase government control while the right's is to decrease it or use the private sector: Healthcare: - The left ideally wants to nationalize it, the ultimate form of government control - The right wants to create a working private system. Education: - The left wants to increase funding and centralize control over curriculum. - The right does not want to increase funding nearly as much and wants to decentralize control over curriculum. Joblessness: - The left wants to hire mass numbers of people through government job programs (Bernie wants a 1 trillion dollar infrastructure program done by hiring unemployed people through the government) - The right wants to grow the economy and decrease taxation to make more private jobs That's just three big overarching issues right off the top of my head, but it goes on and on bar a few specific topics like drugs (The arguments over abortion and gay marriage are more about social definitions, not government control. Thinking that fetus' should have rights because they're people with rights isn't arguing for more government control. It's arguing that their rights be recognized. Gay marriage is about what marriage is. The right generally thinks it's a specific defined thing, and the left thinks it's just useful a social contract that can be change whenever society wants it to.)[/QUOTE] The government belongs to the people. When you increase government control and reduce financial influence on government, you allow the people to take control of markets. For healthcare it is simple: Everyone has a body and, regardless of their finances, have a basic human right to have it taken care of. We are a wealthy nation, it is a simple and noble objective, we can accomplish it. Fuck the greedy pricks who say anything else. For Education the left wants to increase funding. Centralizing control was the right. No child left behind was designed, by the right, to destroy schools. Jobs: The left wants to legally mandate that you pay workers a living wage. If you are employed full time, you shouldn't suffer in abject poverty. Public works projects have been successfully utilized to jump start jobs in the past as well as to massively improve on our infrastructure. We require both right now. Taxes are a necessary part of having a functional government. Get over it. The right can fuck off about marriage. Marriage predates Christianity and was a property contract. The right can fuck off about abortion. You have a right to bodily autonomy.
I can't tell where your points end and your ~righteous anger~ begins. Like I said, I'm not even trying to argue that one is better than the other, just that liberals generally want more government control. Obviously you believe that authoritarian control can be useful or good in some scenarios. That's perfectly fine, but it's irrelevant to what I'm arguing.
[QUOTE=GunFox;49373821]-words, you edited your post so you got your zingbolts removed for making me read-[/QUOTE] Really if you're a reasonable and intelligent person it's sometimes difficult to understand why he's so popular. I think Trump's supporters are a motley bunch of cynics, morons, naive people who lean conservative, and the ignorant and belligerent segments of our society who lap this stupid shit up. Not saying anyone here is any of that, by the way, but the types I listed are definitely the lion's share of his fanbase. Since I grew up in a rural area, frequently associate with the almost solidly right-wing militia and survivalist camps, and lean slightly to the right myself I can fully understand the why. Most of it boils down to a vehement distrust and dislike for "the liberals" that are "destroying this country" which more or less means one of two things. Either it's a genuine concern that certain values are being eroded (which I can understand, I could talk a lot about that myself) or because essentially, "I hate living in a country where I can't say nigger, there are faggots walking hand in hand, and I'm not judged by how much time I spend in church." That's more or less the vehement Trump supporter's basic thought process, and it's largely why his opinions seem to have shifted into a more radical stance to play to that crowd. There are a [I]lot[/I] of people in the country who firmly despise "the liberals" for a variety of reasons, but like most sheep people it boils down to emotional and mental immaturity. "Political correctness" is essentially being forced to conform to a set of moral standards that aren't necessarily their own, simply being told, "hey bro that's fucking racist as hell," is often enough to start the bullshit ranting. In my experience? Nearly all of the people who dig in their heels and refuse to budge to the liberal witchcraft that is watching what you fucking say aren't actually racist but just enjoy racy jokes. Normal, rational people would say as much, but not these people and I'm pretty sure the conservatives on the board know at least a few people like that. (sgman91 I know for a fact you do, you've mentioned the type before) So that gives you an idea of what level of maturity we're dealing with here, they're the right-wing version of the social justice warrior and yes they are as equally prone to descending into a tribalism. Everything that they don't immediately understand is the enemy and they will fight tooth and nail to prevail over their enemies, especially if it deals with the hot-button social issues. Your average conservative sheeperson doesn't really have the emotional fortitude to deal with conflicting issues any other way, so they bleat and baa (often at liberal sheepersons) until they feel they've "won" and are thus safe. Yes, I know, it seems fucking ridiculous, but the concept of [I]Muslims[/I] in their [I]Christian Nation[/I] is a battle by itself and they will fight it wherever it shows up. Really, in light of all of that it's quite easy to see why they'd chase after somebody like Trump. He is everything, [U]everything[/U] they adore: a slightly older man with a strong, scowling face, a business owner, pro-everything they like, and damn it he says whatever he wants to boot! Fuck the truth, he's got [I]character[/I] and in their eyes that's all that really counts and if the rest of the world doesn't like it? [I]Fuck 'em.[/I]
In my opinion, the ironic thing is that Trump is the opposite of what people love about him. I honestly think he wants power above all and that he doesn't actually have any real convictions about the policy that he puts forward. You can tell by looking at his political history. He's never stood by any position if it hurt him because the guy doesn't care about anyone but himself. Personally, I would have a very hard time voting for Trump at any point.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49373971]In my opinion, the ironic thing is that Trump is the opposite of what people love about him. I honestly think he wants power above all and that he doesn't actually have any real convictions about the policy that he puts forward. You can tell by looking at his political history. He's never stood by any position if it hurt him because the guy doesn't care about anyone but himself. Personally, I would have a very hard time voting for Trump at any point.[/QUOTE]Aside from the "fuck EVERYTHING let's burn this son of a bitch down!" aspect of voting for him, yeah, that's pretty much how I feel too. Not to toot my own horn but frankly I'm too goddamn intelligent to buy into the horseshit, he just says whatever he thinks and honestly if I wanted a president who did that I'd vote for my dad. I've gotten really good at spotting bullshit from dumb blowhards who say whatever's on their mind at that moment precisely because I grew up with one. That's really not a quality you'd want for the presidency at all.
[QUOTE=Captain James;49373043]Personally I hope Trump gets elected, I agree with his policies. I intend to get in on a k-1 visa to be with my fiancée and the whole process has exposed me to a lot of U.S. issues with immigration and illegals, it's shown me just how bad the situation with illegals is over there and how it impacts people who want to honestly get in legally and pay their due taxes, work hard and build themselves from the ground up like myself.[/QUOTE] Except immigration is at a net negative, after being net zero since 2010. There are more Mexicans leaving the country than there are entering, according to Pew's latest research released last month. Trump only makes sense if your fear of scary foreigners trumps your basic understanding of facts.
does ", study finds" mean anything at all these days? Do they just throw that in without any reason now? writes ", study finds" then proceeds to admit it's from online polls. Fucking gave me cancer.
Ah hell yeah, I love watch trump-voters get destroyed.
[QUOTE=GunFox;49373219]Illuminate me. How bad is the problem with the "illegals"?[/QUOTE] Its rather bad at the bordering states where its a legitimate problem. A lot of crime, a lot of fresh out of mexico immigrants who are under educated, and dont speak much English or any at all. Mostly poor, lots of drugs coming in and out at those states(Arizona/Texas/New Mexico/California) and crime. Further you move away from those states, the less of an issue it becomes. Once you hit the east coast seems like a pretty big non-issue. Never hear of anything of Mexicans or illegals causing any problems around here, and most illegals I have met are all legitimately trying and working. The biggest issue are the benefits illegals get(this happens everywhere), its what ends up costing the most but thats an issue that can be solved by JUST NOT GIVING ILLEGALS BENEFITS, or not nearly as much as they have now. They get better benefits than citizens in some cases, which is very fucked up imo. I think most people would give two shits about illegals if they werent allowed to get benefits. The jobs they "take" are pretty much the jobs no one wants to do, or labor shit under the table. Also it seems easier to come here illegally and get citizenship than it is going through the correct channels.
Trump is the only candidate that cares about the white working class. Obama dares lecture him for 'stoking' their fears after his presidency failed them, as workers and as your average 'ignorant' white American. Vote for trump.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49373451]I would definitely agree that the modern republican party's bark is way worse than it's bite although I do think that the right has a base of support for small government that the left just doesn't have. The general leftist argument to an issue is to either A) spend more government money on it or B) regulate it, both ways that increase government control. That stands for essentially every issue. Even the drug issue is pushed forward as a way to increase government funding with high levels of taxation. Other issues like the education system, the healthcare system, the economy, poverty, joblessness, etc. all apply as well. On the other hand, the arguments from the right often come down to dismantling the government, taking away regulation, or growing the economy through private growth. Now, I would argue that the conservative leadership rarely actually follows these goals because it's not very fun to argue for giving people less free stuff, but those are still the stated methods. [editline]22nd December 2015[/editline] I'm not even arguing which side is right, just that the left's method is almost always to increase government control while the right's is to decrease it or use the private sector: Healthcare: - The left ideally wants to nationalize it, the ultimate form of government control - The right wants to create a working private system. Education: - The left wants to increase funding and centralize control over curriculum. - The right does not want to increase funding nearly as much and wants to decentralize control over curriculum. Joblessness: - The left wants to hire mass numbers of people through government job programs (Bernie wants a 1 trillion dollar infrastructure program done by hiring unemployed people through the government) - The right wants to grow the economy and decrease taxation to make more private jobs That's just three big overarching issues right off the top of my head, but it goes on and on bar a few specific topics like drugs (The arguments over abortion and gay marriage are more about social definitions, not government control. Thinking that fetus' should have rights because they're people with rights isn't arguing for more government control. It's arguing that their rights be recognized. Gay marriage is about what marriage is. The right generally thinks it's a specific defined thing, and the left thinks it's just useful a social contract that can be change whenever society wants it to.)[/QUOTE] Again, though, it's easy to play this game: Marriage Equality" - The left wants to make marriage equality a given, so that homosexuals cannot be discriminated against be the state." - The right wants to enforce Christian values, outlawing homosexual marriage, or at least giving states the right to outlaw it for themselves. Women's Healthcare: - The left wants to ensure continued federal funding for women's healthcare facilities to ensure that women have easy access to the facilities they need to make decisions relating to their reproductive health. - The right wants to shut down federal funding for women's healthcare facilities on the grounds that they theoretically violate Christian values related to contraceptives and abortions. Drug Policy: - The left want to reduce the harsh policies set forth in the war on drugs, especially as they relate to largely harmless recreational substances like marijuana. - The right want to continue heavily restricting substances and doling out harsh prison sentences for minor crimes of possession. Religious Freedom: - The left want to ensure an impartial playing field for religious freedom, wherein no one gets special treatment or special persecution. Religion is a personal choice, not a government policy. - The right want to ensure [I]Christians[/I] are not only free to follow their own religion, but that the Christian religion is dominant and that Christianity is heavily intertwined in our governmental system to such a degree that there has been widespread support for the suggestion of outright banning another religion. We could go back and forth on this all day. I'm sorry, but it's a pointless and cyclical argument. At best, neither of our parties is any more authoritarian than the other. The left tends to favor a more active government role in economic and social policy gears towards a level playing field for different social classes, and a broader focus on more personal liberties as relating to lifestyle choices. The right tends to favor deregulated economic policies that leave the power in the hands of private corporate entities, believing that what's best for business is what's best for the country. They also tend to have heavy-handed moral policies that persecute people who violate Christian religious principles. At the end of the day, we both have our own opinions on how things should be done, and we both most likely think that the other side of the political spectrum is deeply flawed. I may not be able to convince you that the Republican party is the misguided beast I see it as, but I hope that you'll at least be reasonable enough to admit that the left is not tyrannical in any sense of the word. That's simply absurd. [editline]23rd December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Ziron;49373648]IMO, today's generation is a bit more conservative than we think. This whole authoritarian leftist is just a fad millennials are hopping to on to get their names in the history books and to look more compassionate than their groggy elders. Once they start realizing they blew several years trying to "protect" a minority they've barely interacted with in their lives and, after some soul-searching, found they secretly dislike, the whole thing will start crashing down. [/QUOTE] Do you truly believe that the only reason people are against persecution and oppression of minorities is because they want to "try to look compassionate," even though they're all secretly racist/xenophobic/homophobic anyway? That none of us actually believe our rhetoric and that we're just knowingly parroting off bullshit to try and fit in, and at our core we actually want to see minorities oppressed? That reeks of projection to me, dude.
[QUOTE=Conscript;49375251]Trump is the only candidate that cares about the white working class. Obama dares lecture him for 'stoking' their fears after his presidency failed them, as workers and as your average 'ignorant' white American. Vote for trump.[/QUOTE] Normally I'd assume a capital-S Socialist endorsing a right-wing corporate slimebag was being ironic, but you can never tell with some people.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49375425]Again, though, it's easy to play this game: Marriage Equality" - The left wants to make marriage equality a given, so that homosexuals cannot be discriminated against be the state." - The right wants to enforce Christian values, outlawing homosexual marriage, or at least giving states the right to outlaw it for themselves.[/QUOTE] Like I said earlier, this isn't really a question of government control or authoritarianism. The left's argument isn't that the government should have less control over marriage, but that the idea of marriage should be changed. They still want the same amount of control over the institution as the right does. [QUOTE]Women's Healthcare: - The left wants to ensure continued federal funding for women's healthcare facilities to ensure that women have easy access to the facilities they need to make decisions relating to their reproductive health. - The right wants to shut down federal funding for women's healthcare facilities on the grounds that they theoretically violate Christian values related to contraceptives and abortions.[/QUOTE] Firstly, less federal funding is equivalent to less government control. So I'm not quite sure what point you were making there. Secondly, again, this is an argument over whether the fetus has human rights. To say that that is an argument of government control would be like saying that being against murder is to argue for more government control. The argument is over what rights do fetus' have, not how much government should control women. [QUOTE]Drug Policy: - The left want to reduce the harsh policies set forth in the war on drugs, especially as they relate to largely harmless recreational substances like marijuana. - The right want to continue heavily restricting substances and doling out harsh prison sentences for minor crimes of possession.[/QUOTE] I've already admitted that this is generally a good example of where the right is more authoritarian than the left. With that said, there are popular people on the right who advocate for those same types of policies as well. [QUOTE]Religious Freedom: - The left want to ensure an impartial playing field for religious freedom, wherein no one gets special treatment or special persecution. Religion is a personal choice, not a government policy. - The right want to ensure [I]Christians[/I] are not only free to follow their own religion, but that the Christian religion is dominant and that Christianity is heavily intertwined in our governmental system to such a degree that there has been widespread support for the suggestion of outright banning another religion.[/QUOTE] What specific laws are you talking about here? (Trump is not a good example of the the right or conservatism). [QUOTE]We could go back and forth on this all day. I'm sorry, but it's a pointless and cyclical argument. At best, neither of our parties is any more authoritarian than the other. The left tends to favor a more active government role in economic and social policy gears towards a level playing field for different social classes, and a broader focus on more personal liberties as relating to lifestyle choices. The right tends to favor deregulated economic policies that leave the power in the hands of private corporate entities, believing that what's best for business is what's best for the country. They also tend to have heavy-handed moral policies that persecute people who violate Christian religious principles.[/QUOTE] You say that they are at most, equal when it comes to authoritarian control, but then as your examples you list the exact same things you said before. As I've already said, the right does want more control in a few specific social cases, but generally, the left argues for government control as the solution to society's problems. It's their overarching modus operandi. It's the go-to answer to all issues. The default stance of the left is to increase government control and the default stance of the right is to favor private solutions. Yes, there are examples on both sides of the parties straying from these defaults, but those are outliers. [QUOTE]At the end of the day, we both have our own opinions on how things should be done, and we both most likely think that the other side of the political spectrum is deeply flawed. I may not be able to convince you that the Republican party is the misguided beast I see it as, but I hope that you'll at least be reasonable enough to admit that the left is not tyrannical in any sense of the word. That's simply absurd.[/QUOTE] I don't believe I've called anyone "tyrannical". I've called them authoritarian, and I stand by that assessment.
[QUOTE=riki2cool;49375095]Ah hell yeah, I love watch trump-voters get destroyed.[/QUOTE] I'm neither a trump voter nor support. My point was that if trump had his 80s mentality and didn't turn into a retard that'd he'd be the most capable candidate. Right now as it stands, every candidate is a joke. yes, even sanders. At least trump has more fucking balls then all the other candidates, even if his views are ass backwards.
[QUOTE=Captain James;49373043]Personally I hope Trump gets elected, I agree with his policies. I intend to get in on a k-1 visa to be with my fiancée and the whole process has exposed me to a lot of U.S. issues with immigration and illegals, it's shown me just how bad the situation with illegals is over there and how it impacts people who want to honestly get in legally and pay their due taxes, work hard and build themselves from the ground up like myself.[/QUOTE] There's a lot of Mexican immigrants who would [I]love[/I] to get in legally, but sadly the world isn't all about what you want, and they'd rather get their family to a good place, even if it means going against the law, than helplessly watch as their children grow up poorly educated in a crime ridden country because they just don't have the time or money to go through the proper legal procedures. And as far as taxes go, I don't know why it's not common sense by now that plenty of illegals actually do pay taxes without getting the benefits so that they seem more legitimate Please don't get your info on immigration from Trump
Then we're simply going to have to agree to disagree. It's clear that we just aren't going to reach any common ground in this discussion.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49376661]Then we're simply going to have to agree to disagree. It's clear that we just aren't going to reach any common ground in this discussion.[/QUOTE] That's fine if you want to leave it at that, but I do want to be preeminently clear. The left wants more control than the right when it comes to: - Taxation - Education (primary and secondary) - Healthcare - Hiring practices - Union/business relationships - Global trade - Inheritance law - Energy production - Poverty - Childcare (mandatory preschool) - Smog standards - Speech (specifically laws against offensive speech as seen across Europe and fairness doctrine type laws. A US example might be the attempt to ban the "Redskins" trademark that recently failed.) - Food (attempts to mandate GMO labeling or banning large sodas in New York, for example) - Retirement (For example, Roth IRA restrictions for high earners and a desire to increase social security taxation) - Minimum wage - Required employer provided benefits - Guns - etc. The right wants more control over: - Drug legality - Immigration (In the sense that they actually want to enforce the current laws) - Military spending, although it depends on which side of the right/left you're talking about (Some on the right, like Rand Paul, don't like it, and some on the left, like Jim Web do like it) [editline]23rd December 2015[/editline] Let me also say again: I'm NOT even trying to make the argument that less control is always better, just that the left generally wants more control.
Whereas the right just wants to control how you are allowed to live your life. As long as you're not gay, black, poor, a woman, a Muslim, an immigrant, a member of the middle class, or in any other way, shape, or form not a wealthy white Christian male, you're free and clear from their meddling.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49376817]Whereas the right just wants to control how you are allowed to live your life. As long as you're not gay, black, poor, a woman, a Muslim, an immigrant, a member of the middle class, or in any other way, shape, or form a wealthy white Christian male, you're free and clear from their meddling.[/QUOTE] Tell me, how does the right specifically want to authoritatively control black people? I can't respond to vague assertions. I've listed very specific realms of policy on purpose.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49375425] Do you truly believe that the only reason people are against persecution and oppression of minorities is because they want to "try to look compassionate," even though they're all secretly racist/xenophobic/homophobic anyway? That none of us actually believe our rhetoric and that we're just knowingly parroting off bullshit to try and fit in, and at our core we actually want to see minorities oppressed? That reeks of projection to me, dude.[/QUOTE] People can and will bullshit a lot of stuff to fit in. Maybe not every white keyboard warrior like you that bravely defends blacks from Mean Internet People that don't think they're innocent angels screwed over by a system rigged against them, but others will. Then again, based on your vigorous white-knighting of any minority from fellow whites on a video game forum no matter how blatantly wrong they are, the idea that people will lie, deceive, cheat, and make up nonsense for their own personal gain are a little bit beyond your comprehension.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49376826]Tell me, how does the right want to authoritatively control black people? I can't respond to vague assertions.[/QUOTE] Debating the proven system of racial oppression in this country with you is and always has been about as fruitful and enlightening as debating it with a brick wall. We've gone back and forth on this topic for months now, and I'm about done humoring it. [QUOTE=Ziron;49376834]People can and will bullshit a lot of stuff to fit in. Maybe not every white keyboard warrior like you that bravely defends blacks from Mean Internet People that don't think they're innocent angels screwed over by a system rigged against them, but others will. Then again, based on your vigorous white-knighting of any minority from fellow whites on a video game forum no matter how blatantly wrong they are, the idea that people will lie, deceive, cheat, and make up nonsense for their own personal gain are a little bit beyond your comprehension.[/QUOTE] Ha. Might as well just call me a race traitor and be done with it, to be honest. You're not fooling anybody.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49376848]Debating the proven system of racial oppression in this country with you as and always has been about as fruitful and enlightening as debating it with a brick wall. We've gone back and forth on this topic for months now, and I'm about done humoring it.[/QUOTE] If you aren't willing to argue your position, then don't enter into the discussion. I've been specific and clear about my position, and have directly responded to the points you've made. Don't try and make it seem like it's my fault that you don't have the will to actually back up your claims.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49376848]Debating the proven system of racial oppression in this country with you as and always has been about as fruitful and enlightening as debating it with a brick wall. We've gone back and forth on this topic for months now, and I'm about done humoring it. Ha. Might as well just call me a race traitor and be done with it, to be honest. You're not fooling anybody.[/QUOTE] Way to put words in my mouth, buddy! I was trying to say A. you're a faceless dude online defending minorties you've never met before from other faceless people. What you do means jack and shit. You're not a crusader fighting the forces of darkness that the American right-wing spawns; you're just some dork with a collection of talking points from Mother Jones/HuffPo and buzzwords writing essays on an obscure video game forum about Serious Issues. Nobody fucking cares except for you. B. You consistnetly trying to imagine that minorities can do no wrong and derail threads about race to defend the innocent minorities. People like are the exact reason why SH has gone to shit; fun and debate have been replaced with smug and naive people like you shouting down anyone that doesn't fellate the party line. Any sort of dissent with your party is met with 600 words essays that sum up to "You're Bad and should feel Bad". But I imagine that's not as a fun as typing a smug responce, then zipping your pants down while thinking "Heh, got that regressive oppressor :smug:", now is it? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting, but at least you got to stick it to that smug naive SJW white knight dork" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Ziron;49376968]Way to put words in my mouth, buddy! I was trying to say A. you're a faceless dude online defending minorties you've never met before from other faceless people. What you do means jack and shit. You're not a crusader fighting the forces of darkness that the American right-wing spawns; you're just some dork with a collection of talking points from Mother Jones/HuffPo and buzzwords writing essays on an obscure video game forum about Serious Issues. Nobody fucking cares except for you. B. You consistnetly trying to imagine that minorities can do no wrong and derail threads about race to defend the innocent minorities. People like are the exact reason why SH has gone to shit; fun and debate have been replaced with smug and naive people like you shouting down anyone that doesn't fellate the party line. Any sort of dissent with your party is met with 600 words essays that sum up to "You're Bad and should feel Bad". But I imagine that's not as a fun as typing a smug responce, then zipping your pants down while thinking "Heh, got that regressive oppressor :smug:", now is it?[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p13.pdf[/url] As of 2013 about 526 thousand black men were under the jurisdiction of state or federal correctional authorities. 454 thousand white men were. About twelve percent of the population is Black. There is a problem. We are fucking up through education funding that screws children in poor, frequently black, areas out of any real opportunities. We are fucking up by making sure that our drug policies keep people in these areas incarcerated and make finding employment for felons difficult. We are fucking up by making sure that the minimum wage stays low so that if you are poor, you are likely too busy trying to keep your family sheltered and clothed to actually move up. This is the fallout of conservatives. These aren't some huffpost lines. This is the reality which we face.
Man, I must be out of the loop. I thought most Republicans were just good for telling you "no" and that you're worthless, followed by no plan and creating bigger problems because of deregulation. No sex. No drugs. No college aid. No healthcare aid. No abortions. No Muslims. No illegal immigrants. [I]Well, what happen if...[/i] You tell me, moocher. It's your fault. Deal with it.
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