I always find the excuse "shortage of execution drug" to be kind of a dumb.
You know what's not in short supply? Bullets.
Regardless, capital punishment is one of those issues where I have difficulty making a stand on. On one side, sitting someone in jail for the rest of their lives doesn't really solve anything. On the other, executing someone doesn't really help anything, either. Thinking about it, I don't feel any sense of 'retribution' or 'justice' when criminals are put to death.
[QUOTE=Noss;45480567]We have a responsibility to be better than the people we imprison and execute. Torturing somebody for 2 hours is not a good way to set an example of how a civilized society should behave. What he did was abhorrent but there is no reason for us to sink to his level.[/QUOTE]
shut up with this civilized society crap
we have stuff like rape, sexual assault, murder, bullying and fucked up drugs like cocaine, heroin, krokodil, etc.
the list can go on and on, but the point is, we wouldn't have people like him making comments like that if society isn't as fucked up like it is right now. I don't agree with his opinion, but that's not going to stop the fact that society is messed up
[QUOTE=5/3/4/3;45483199]shut up with this civilized society crap
we have stuff like rape, sexual assault, murder, bullying and fucked up drugs like cocaine, heroin, krokodil, etc.
the list can go on and on, but the point is, we wouldn't have people like him making comments like that if society isn't as fucked up like it is right now. I don't agree with his opinion, but that's not going to stop the fact that society is messed up[/QUOTE]
I don't think society is as fucked up as you make it out to be. Maybe I'm just seeing things with rose-tinted shades, but I'm sure I've made it through life up to this point without seeing any of that first hand. Sure there is some messed up stuff out there, but I don't consider it to be rampant enough to say society as a whole is FUBAR.
Maybe I'm just sheltered/lucky to not get sexually assaulted/bullied/murdered by a drugged up rapist.
[QUOTE=Eva-1337;45483227]I don't think society is as fucked up as you make it out to be. Maybe I'm just seeing thing with rose-tinted shades, but I'm sure I've made it through life up to this point without seeing any of that first hand.
Maybe I'm just sheltered/lucky to not get sexually assaulted/bullied/murdered by a drugged up rapist.[/QUOTE]
You're right, as with you, I've been lucky enough to get put into a place where I don't have to experience assault, bullies, rape, or some deranged psycho, but think about the people who've been forced to experience it first-hand.
I really don't understand this moral high horse bullshit that murderers lives are worth more than the people they killed, murderers think about the consequence of their actions before they proceed (sometimes), if they have a shit life; why would life in prison be so bad?
But if they knew murdering someone meant their own life be taken away too, then they might think twice.
[QUOTE=Subby;45483415]I really don't understand this moral high horse bullshit that murderers lives are worth more than the people they killed, murderers think about the consequence of their actions before they proceed (sometimes), if they have a shit life; why would life in prison be so bad?
But if they knew murdering someone meant their own life be taken away too, then they might think twice.[/QUOTE]
Most murderers don't really care for the consequences. Also, if something is done in a fit of anger or passion, that's also there. Some few might think twice if there was a mandatory death penalty, but it won't stop those who don't care, or commit murder under sudden provocation, who make up the majority of killers.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;45480475]No fan of the death penalty but honestly these "humane" methods are turning out to be disastrous
Just do firing squad or even 100x better, scrap the death penalty[/QUOTE]
You know, I really agree with you here because who the fuck knows if he was innocent and had a mistrial or something, you can pull him out of prison. But the biggest issue as far as I can see is the cost of keeping so many prisoners alive...
[QUOTE=Subby;45483415]I really don't understand this moral high horse bullshit that murderers lives are worth more than the people they killed, murderers think about the consequence of their actions before they proceed (sometimes), if they have a shit life; why would life in prison be so bad?
But if they knew murdering someone meant their own life be taken away too, then they might think twice.[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure its been shown that the death penalty is not even remotely deterring to things like murder. Like Zoneslyvania said, a lot of murderers either kill in a fit of rage or passion (impaired reasoning) or don't give a shit anyway (psychopathy).
Removal of the death penalty isn't some'moral high ground' shit as a lot of proponents seem to think. Its a mixture of logistical, legislative and a tiny bit of moral shit too. What benefit does killing someone actually bring to society? Sure there might be no downsides (other than giving the government the right to take its citizens lives), but that doesn't mean it has any benefits. Its expensive, it doesn't function any better as a deterrent than harsh sentencing, it only makes a few people feel better about being victims. This isn't the criminal "getting what they deserve", it's petty revenge.
Taking someone elses life does not stop you from being a human being, it does not void your own right to life. This doesn't mean you should live a comfortable life, you did still kill someone after all.
[QUOTE=Eva-1337;45483194]I always find the excuse "shortage of execution drug" to be kind of a dumb.
You know what's not in short supply? Bullets.
Regardless, capital punishment is one of those issues where I have difficulty making a stand on. On one side, sitting someone in jail for the rest of their lives doesn't really solve anything. On the other, executing someone doesn't really help anything, either. Thinking about it, I don't feel any sense of 'retribution' or 'justice' when criminals are put to death.[/QUOTE]
Well there is a shortage of the main drug seeing as the company who makes it refuses to sell it to any department of correction facilities.
If there is any of it left in the USA, it is either in extremely short supply or expired.
They are turning to compounding pharmacies to make it and as we have seen multiple times, they are not perfect at all and cause undesired effects.
[QUOTE=Mitsudigi;45480722]They euthanize animals routinely all over the world and yet they can't even kill a single human being?
Why can't they just use the same drugs?
-- EDIT
Found this:
[url]http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-dogs-go-heaven/201112/animal-euthanasia-and-capital-punishment-some-uncomfortable-compariso[/url][/QUOTE]
The three drug system is actually in part to make the death less "disturbing" for the people watching. In most information I saw, the heart stopping drug typically doesn't work fast enough and the prisoner generally suffocates because they paralyze the diaphram and then put the prisoner under so people can't tell that he can't breath. I think I read this a few months ago in an NPR article.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;45483465]Pretty sure its been shown that the death penalty is not even remotely deterring to things like murder. Like Zoneslyvania said, a lot of murderers either kill in a fit of rage or passion (impaired reasoning) or don't give a shit anyway (psychopathy).
Removal of the death penalty isn't some'moral high ground' shit as a lot of proponents seem to think. Its a mixture of logistical, legislative and a tiny bit of moral shit too. What benefit does killing someone actually bring to society? Sure there might be no downsides (other than giving the government the right to take its citizens lives), but that doesn't mean it has any benefits. Its expensive, it doesn't function any better as a deterrent than harsh sentencing, it only makes a few people feel better about being victims. This isn't the criminal "getting what they deserve", it's petty revenge.
Taking someone elses life does not stop you from being a human being, it does not void your own right to life. This doesn't mean you should live a comfortable life, you did still kill someone after all.[/QUOTE]
You're saying they don't think about it when they murder, but then you say we should keep them alive? for what purpose could they ever serve?
[QUOTE=Subby;45483520]You're saying they don't think about it when they murder, but then you say we should keep them alive? for what purpose could they ever serve?[/QUOTE]
because we don't condone murder?
in fact, what is a human being worth to you exactly? if the government wrongfully executes someone and they have in the past, cause you know there's huge influx of prosecuterial misconducts and such: how do you compensate his family?
[QUOTE=Grindigo;45480486]With people like you no reason world isn't a better place.[/QUOTE]
I disagree with his views but no, he's not the one murdering, raping, stealing, etc. Obviously those are the people that can make this world a hell on earth. I have no sympathy for this man either, but I still wish his fate didn't come to this. I really do wish these kind of things were abolished too, it's without a doubt one of the most morally reprehensible systems still in place. It's fucking sick, I really am amazed that the government not only still has the death penalty but can't even do it in a humane fashion (as humane as you can make murder I suppose).
All of that aside, yeah, I have no sympathy for him in a way. It does make me sad, that humans want to harm other humans, but for fucks sake this man is a murderer he's not innocent. He did get himself into this mess after all, knowing the consequences. If anything, blame the government because they make the laws, not Starlight.
[editline]24th July 2014[/editline]
You know what I can't even stick to it. Everything I said is true, but I can't help but feel a little bad for the guy. That really is awful, whether he deserved it or not. I guess I'm only human. I just find it very foolish that you think people with their mere opinions are the reason the world can be so dismal, and not the actual sources behind it all.
Remember how prison is meant to be rehabilitation and not "Oh they did a bad thing, lock them up forever"
In Norway they have a 3% reoffending rate, and that's because they actually rehabilitate prisoners by letting them live in secluded village communities and offering professional therapy and seriously educate them on what they did wrong. With a prison system in North America, no wonder they have a 60% reoffending rate
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;45480517]And killing him is going to bring them back?
Let him rot in prison for life without the possibility of parole[/QUOTE]
How does locking someone up for life with no chance of getting out makes us more civilised than if we were to have the death penalty?
[editline]24th July 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=IceyMalone;45484061]Remember how prison is meant to be rehabilitation and not "Oh they did a bad thing, lock them up forever"
[/QUOTE]
With how fucked up humanity was and kinda is now I doubt Prison is about rehab for most parts of the world
But it should be. Punishment for something that 8/10 times is likely to be a mental issue is insane. Rehab is the only true answer, and that's just an objective fact. I mean, are we so desensitized that when we hear about someone murdering another human being we think "Oh well, at least they're in jail" and not "They must be horribly mentally ill to take another life like that"
[editline]24th July 2014[/editline]
Again, reoffending rate is a huge thing
Putting someone in a cage for years on end just detaches them from normal human life, and just gets them too ingrained into gang culture, a culture itself bred by the self-fulfilling prophecy of prison
[QUOTE=IceyMalone;45484197]But it should be. Punishment for something that 8/10 times is likely to be a mental issue is insane. Rehab is the only true answer, and that's just an objective fact. I mean, are we so desensitized that when we hear about someone murdering another human being we think "Oh well, at least they're in jail" and not "They must be horribly mentally ill to take another life like that"
[editline]24th July 2014[/editline]
Again, reoffending rate is a huge thing
Putting someone in a cage for years on end just detaches them from normal human life, and just gets them too ingrained into gang culture, a culture itself bred by the self-fulfilling prophecy of prison[/QUOTE]
That's true but I'm commenting more on how you said that prisons used to be about "rehab".
Which they aren't since most people think of prisons as a punishment for breaking the law rather than an establishment to detain threats to society and rehabilitate them.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;45480580]If they really have to do this, why not just put them to sleep with common medical anesthetics and then whatever to stop the heart?[/QUOTE]
anesthetic is expensive and you would have to hire an anesthetist
To be honest, they never used to be about rehab. Which is a shame, because that's what works. That's what they should be.
The best argument against the death penalty is that once you kill somebody, there is no way of bringing people back. There have been plenty of cases where people have been executed/freed from death row despite seemingly strong evidence.
Putting the morality of 'eye for an eye' behind us, the death penalty was abolished in countries such as the UK for a reason. If just one innocent is wrongly executed the system has failed.
From a monetary/safety perspective there is no benefit to execution once they have been imprisoned. The prisoner cannot further harm members of society, and as has been said previously, it costs more to execute than to imprison due to the bureaucracy of an execution trial (which is a good thing).
[QUOTE=meppers;45480595]if i was on death row i would pretend that the execution was botched and i would fake screaming in pain as i die peacefully[/QUOTE]
as you smile into your last sleep, look him in the eyes and wink "you're fired, lol"
[QUOTE=zombini;45482964]Firstly, a round to the brain stem is what would be guaranteed instant death, and that can be done by way of a machine. That gets around your first and second points. Strap them to a chair and have a robot aim a .22 handgun at their brainstem and they'll instantly die. Nitrogen is better, but it's very unlikely that it will ever fall into use. Nobody wants a convicted killer to get giddy and enjoy his death. Granted i'd rather have no executions, but it will either never happen, or will take decades to happen.[/QUOTE]
A shot to the brainstem is going to cause automatic functions like breathing and heart beating to stop, but the person will still have some semblance of conciousness and pain. Besides, one bullet won't completely destroy the brainstem. Also, the prefrontal cortex is important in perceiving concsiousness, and that's not destroyed via a shot to the brainstem.
The person is still conscious of the pain, they just can't express it.
I think when we're talking about the least humane way to kill a human we should be looking at the humanity of killing a human in the first place.
I'd rather be hung or shot than lie strapped to a bed and asphyxiate for two hours.
This is fucked up.
If he's going to die anyway what difference does 2 hours [I]really[/I] make? Ofcourse it's horrible for the executors watching but if anything having experimented untested drugs on him would be good for all of us and at the same time get something useful out of the criminal before his last moments. Not that I feel comfortable with human experimentation, that's a bit fucked up.
People here are boasting so much about how humane they are and that prisons are for "rehab". Yes that is true but some people are beyond rehab and we wouldn't want them out again would we. A murderer has already depleted his life's worth by taking someone else's life, why should he have the same rights as the rest of us? People aren't equal, they never will be. It's just something we say to make ourselves feel better.
I don't support death penalty though as long as it's much more expensive than lifesentence for some reason. money that could be used for other good things.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;45480973]am i the only one who thinks staying in jail for 60+ years is a worse punishment compared to simply dying?
i always found the "humane" argument kinda silly, sole reason to oppose the death penalty IMO is to avoid killing innocents, nothing more.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention that the death penalty has costed the US billions of tax dollars and offers no chance of rehabilitation if possible.
[QUOTE=CheezyCheeze;45485574]If he's going to die anyway what difference does 2 hours [I]really[/I] make? Ofcourse it's horrible for the executors watching but if anything having experimented untested drugs on him would be good for all of us and at the same time get something useful out of the criminal before his last moments. Not that I feel comfortable with human experimentation, that's a bit fucked up.
People here are boasting so much about how humane they are and that prisons are for "rehab". Yes that is true but some people are beyond rehab and we wouldn't want them out again would we. A murderer has already depleted his life's worth by taking someone else's life, why should he have the same rights as the rest of us? People aren't equal, they never will be. It's just something we say to make ourselves feel better.
I don't support death penalty though as long as it's much more expensive than lifesentence for some reason. money that could be used for other good things.[/QUOTE]
[quote]Not that I feel comfortable with human experimentation, that's a bit fucked up.[/quote]
But you literally did condone human experimentation, under the guise of 'well if he's going to die anyway what does 2 hours of pain make?'
[QUOTE=Grindigo;45480486]With people like you no reason world isn't a better place.[/QUOTE]
When people were being severely punished for their crimes, there were less crimes because of the consequences.
Nowadays some people who have no money or whatever, just end up going to jail, free food, free bed, shelter from rain and whatnot.
[QUOTE=-Sleepy-*;45485646]When people were being severely punished for their crimes, there were less crimes because of the consequences.[/QUOTE]
entirely baseless with no evidence, the falling crime rates contradict this and there isn't any proof that the death penalty is actually a deterrent
i mean holy shit do you really think that when somebody is about to kill someone they go "wait a minute - i might get the death penalty instead of spending the rest of my life in prison, better not do this!"
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
