Get your very own Lenin statue for only $300! - Mongolian capital's historical statue for sale - Polidicks

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;38038454]He joined WW2 because America was attacked, I wouldn't label him a murderer for defending the country.[/QUOTE] Defending the country by bombing innocent people? Is the only difference between murderer and brilliant whether or not the killing was perceived as "provoked"?

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;38038425]Well yes it does sound silly, because the word "murderer" [I]does[/I] have emotional connotations, and you can't remove them just by saying "by definition". It's not clear that that's what you were trying to do, and I'm sorry if this wasn't your intent, but every single time I see people bringing up "by definition" in anything that isn't in the realm of mathematics, it's been to sneakily bring in an extra connotation that wasn't in the original definition.[/quote] Not at all. When I say "by definition," I am strictly talking only about the denotation, not the connotation. [quote]Yes, but [I]why bother doing that in the first place?[/I] This isn't a courtroom, you don't usually observe that stringent definition in your day to day life, none of us do; so why bring it up here?[/QUOTE] People were arguing semantics, and definitions are exactly what semantics are about.

FUck yeah, i want one for my front lawn.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;38038477]Defending the country by bombing innocent people? Is the only difference between murderer and brilliant whether or not the killing was perceived as "provoked"?[/QUOTE] You shouldn't've gone that route. A much better argument would've been that he authorized Executive Order 9066, which allowed for the internment of innocent Japanese-Americans, resulting in quite a few deaths due to low health standards.

[QUOTE=Paramud;38038480]Not at all. When I say "by definition," I am strictly talking only about the denotation, not the connotation.[/quote] But why bring it up? [quote]People were arguing semantics, and definitions are exactly what semantics are about.[/QUOTE] Maybe in the realm of legaldom and logic, but if you actually read up on the psychology of how language works in the real world you'll find that's not the case. Semantics are not the same as definitions: semantics come first, definitions come after, and they rarely if ever have a 1:1 correspondence.

Facepunch Lenin Statue bidding war.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;38038477]Defending the country by bombing innocent people? Is the only difference between murderer and brilliant whether or not the killing was perceived as "provoked"?[/QUOTE] I doubt FDR mad every tactical choice, plus it's hard to know where unguided bombs are going to hit.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;38038552]plus it's hard to know where unguided bombs are going to hit.[/QUOTE] Well that's kind of the argument against dropping them in the first place ..

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;38038605]Well that's kind of the argument against dropping them in the first place ..[/QUOTE] The only other option would be to let German industry continue to build tanks and guns that slaughter your soldiers on the field. The difference between FDR's firebombing and Truman's atomic bombing is in the long run, it saved lives. Lenin's executions were meant to terrorize, not save anyone.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;38038552]I doubt FDR mad every tactical choice, plus it's hard to know where unguided bombs are going to hit.[/QUOTE] So do you believe FDR was blissfully unaware that bombing campaigns were killing innocent people? Also, many of the bombing runs were designed specifically to instill terror in the populations. [editline]14th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;38038702]The only other option would be to let German industry continue to build tanks and guns that slaughter your soldiers on the field. The difference between FDR's firebombing and Truman's atomic bombing is in the long run, it saved lives.[/quote] How many? [quote]Lenin's executions were meant to terrorize, not save anyone.[/QUOTE] I could argue that Lenin's executions were intended to save lives in the long run as well.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;38038605]Well that's kind of the argument against dropping them in the first place ..[/QUOTE] They needed to destroy the japanese war factories, unfortunately they were situated inside cities.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;38038705] How many?[/QUOTE] For starters, the alternative solution to defeating Japan was invading the homeland, which estimated to have close to a million deaths. [QUOTE=yawmwen;38038705]I could argue that Lenin's executions were intended to save lives in the long run as well.[/QUOTE] Knock yourself out.

As a (former?) Marxist, communist sympathizer, and radical leftist, I will still strongly argue that Lenin was a murderer and made many unnecessary killings and allowed for unjustifiable executions. I understand the mentality- the Red Terror had a dual purpose: to counter the White Terror by thinning ranks of White sympathizers that could and were revolting against the Soviets, as the Whites were doing to the radical peasantry...and to quash the economic and political controllers. The communist mentality was that by doing this, they were essentially liberating the people. By killing the capitalists, royalty, and old order, they were shooting the mugger taking from the poor woman on the street. That doesn't excuse the sheer numbers, the thought police shit under the Cheka, or the raiding of the anarchists, Kronstad sailors, and Puitilov workers when they expressed distaste at the new regime, and their eventual executions at the hands of the Red Army and Cheka. Essentially no matter how you dance about it, Lenin killed far more than was necessary. His strict anti-revisionist, anti-alliance, and sectarian mindset that he had developed by the October action made him an enemy even to those who had previously stood to support the Bolsheviks- and even moreso, to the workers he claimed to protect. Basically, Lenin was a "means justify the ends" type of guy. When that end was the destruction of class antagonism and nationalization of industry into a workers' state, then his means were unflinching devotion to hardline socialism that would require the systematic repression and extermination of others who posed a danger to that one line of socialist thinking.

wouldn't it be a bigger 'fuck you' if they sold it for millions?

[QUOTE=Sector 7;38040138]wouldn't it be a bigger 'fuck you' if they sold it for millions?[/QUOTE] Depends on the buyers. If no one wants it for millions, then what's the point?

[QUOTE=Sector 7;38040138]wouldn't it be a bigger 'fuck you' if they sold it for millions?[/QUOTE] i think it's less of a 'fuck you' and more of a 'we don't want this statue anymore, and we could use a bit of cash'

Honestly Lenin is a major interest to me, and if i had the space I'd totally buy the statue.

I'll melt it down to make a statue of Kim Jong Il. [editline]14th October 2012[/editline] He's so small that I could probably make two

This would make a great conversation starter if I had friends... and they came over to visit me.

I will place my bid for [video=youtube;l91ISfcuzDw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l91ISfcuzDw[/video]

[QUOTE=Bobie;38035703]lenin is a murderer now?[/QUOTE] You really are clueless about the world around you.

Dat feel when you go to the auction planning to buy it for $300 and some rich guy bids 100k.

[QUOTE=Strider*;38043795]You really are clueless about the world around you.[/QUOTE] love u 2 strider baby xoxoxo [editline]15th October 2012[/editline] if u read my posts though i meant it more in the sense that, lenin is considered a murderer for signing the executions of thousands, yet western leaders are not held accountable for their involvement for deaths overseas

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;38039585]For starters, the alternative solution to defeating Japan was invading the homeland, which estimated to have close to a million deaths.[/quote] Not true at all. The Japanese were ready to surrender. [quote]Knock yourself out.[/QUOTE] Basically what [Seed Eater] said. The reasoning behind the Red Terror was about as legitimate as the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Namely, the mentality was that if you kill certain people you can save others.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;38045977]Not true at all. The Japanese were ready to surrender. Basically what [Seed Eater] said. The reasoning behind the Red Terror was about as legitimate as the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Namely, the mentality was that if you kill certain people you can save others.[/QUOTE] But that mentality is 100% legitimate in a lot of cases

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;38046028]But that mentality is 100% legitimate in a lot of cases[/QUOTE] in what situation is the execution of innocents justified

[QUOTE=Bobie;38046043]in what situation is the execution of innocents justified[/QUOTE] Not innocents. The kind of "certain people" I'm talking about are barely innocent

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;38046028]But that mentality is 100% legitimate in a lot of cases[/QUOTE] It is 100% legitimate in cases where the winners use it.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;38046052]Not innocents. The kind of "certain people" I'm talking about are barely innocent[/QUOTE] what certain people?

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;38046052]Not innocents. The kind of "certain people" I'm talking about are barely innocent[/QUOTE] Yea, those sub-human Japanese civilians just deserved to be slaughtered, didn't they?