• Syrian border town, Kobani, falling to ISIS, leader of Turkey says
    60 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Aman;46177774]You don't think this plays into their hands? This fulfills the prophecy they preach to a tee only further justifying themselves with their supporters. How do[I] you[/I] not see this?[/QUOTE] What prophecy?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46177795]What prophecy?[/QUOTE] Didn't mean a literal prophecy, just what they preach. America the imperialist nation sending its tentacles out across the globe demanding Muslims bend to their will and interests and will act with force if Muslims don't, etc. etc. you know the rhetoric I mean. It's just their rhetoric coming true to them, and in some minor senses they are right.
[QUOTE=Aman;46177820]Didn't mean a literal prophecy, just what they preach. America the imperialist nation sending its tentacles out across the globe demanding Muslims bend to their will and interests and will act with force if Muslims don't, etc. etc. you know the rhetoric I mean. It's just their rhetoric coming true to them, and in some minor senses they are right.[/QUOTE] Tentacles...? The last time a country was referred to that was Japan. America isn't massacring, pillaging, and raping foreign populace into submission. If anything we tried indoctrinating people of the east with democracy, and education. So I fail to notice where that could possibly be "bending" muslims to American will by force.
[QUOTE=Hollosoulja;46177855]Tentacles...? The last time a country was referred to that was Japan. America isn't massacring, pillaging, and raping foreign populace into submission. If anything we tried indoctrinating people of the east with democracy, and education.[/QUOTE] It's not just about overt violent force, ISIS and groups like them see it as the West conspiring to destroy the very values of Islam itself. That "democracy and education" you mentioned are part of that.
[QUOTE=Hamaflavian;46177885]It's not just about overt violent force, ISIS and groups like them see it as the West conspiring to destroy the very values of Islam itself. That "democracy and education" you mentioned are part of that.[/QUOTE] Muslims in America are doing just, fine. So I fail to see where the threat of Muslim life is threatened by democracy and education. Freedom of religion was built into the very founding principle of America itself.
This whole conflict really shows the uselessness of the UN. If there was every any time for action by them it would be now with a genocidal group taking power at all angles. However, that would happen due to the ineffectiveness of the UNSC due to the permanent balance of power it holds(vetos for permanent members).
[QUOTE=Hollosoulja;46177909] The American president is Muslim he himself. [/QUOTE] :v:
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46177963]:v:[/QUOTE] :suicide:
[QUOTE=Hollosoulja;46177909]Muslims in America are doing just, fine. So I fail to see where the threat of Muslim life is threatened by democracy and education. Freedom of religion was built into the very founding principle of America itself.[/QUOTE] Again, it's not about that. They don't care about Muslims being comfortable, wealthy and safe, they care about Muslims being fucking Muslim, and to them, that means expunging their faith of corrupting western influences such as feminism, personal liberty, civil rights, and kuffar being able to participate in government(democracy), and it means attacking the very sources of that corruption too. They're basically /pol/ if /pol/ actually did anything.
[QUOTE=RAG Frag;46177374]Saddam wasn't constantly expanding and didn't openly announce threats to the entire world. Your solution is an end without means and leaving the situation to rapidly deteriorate in the meantime just isn't an option, though it's annoying that no local forces can step up to the plate.[/QUOTE] Are you kidding me? Do you know anything about the history of Ba'athis Iraq?
Turkey is like the 8'th country in the world in military power, they'll be fine
[QUOTE=Explosions;46178255]Are you kidding me? Do you know anything about the history of Ba'athis Iraq?[/QUOTE] Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that after the first gulf war Iraq stayed at peace until 2003 rolled around; I'm only comparing the caliphate to the state of Ba'athist Iraq at the time of invasion.
[QUOTE=Swineflu;46180216]Turkey is like the 8'th country in the world in military power, they'll be fine[/QUOTE] Military Power....may I ask you: In which sense?
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;46182768]Military Power....may I ask you: In which sense?[/QUOTE] There's different kinds?
Oh yeah kurds recently started rioting and they're burning down our flags, Atatürk's statues and buildings. [video=youtube;ZuiUsGRi0sg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuiUsGRi0sg[/video] Glad we aren't helping these people.
[QUOTE=RAG Frag;46180831]Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that after the first gulf war Iraq stayed at peace until 2003 rolled around; I'm only comparing the caliphate to the state of Ba'athist Iraq at the time of invasion.[/QUOTE] Right, and Iraq was also peaceful in the period between the Iran-Iraq War and the Gulf War.
[QUOTE=Explosions;46183017]Right, and Iraq was also peaceful in the period between the Iran-Iraq War and the Gulf War.[/QUOTE] Not sure what your point is here.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46183025]Not sure what your point is here.[/QUOTE] The point is that Iraq had invaded its neighbors numerous times and still had a gigantic and powerful military (in the region). Trying to play it off as some helpless nation that wasn't dangerous to anyone is just wrong.
[QUOTE=Explosions;46183063]The point is that Iraq had invaded its neighbors numerous times and still had a gigantic and powerful military (in the region). Trying to play it off as some helpless nation that wasn't dangerous to anyone is just wrong.[/QUOTE] No, wasn't helpless but his point that they didn't invade anyone for a decade after the First Gulf War still stands. By your logic, we ought to watch out for the Germans and Japanese since their militaries are decent and have a history of invading.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46183096]No, wasn't helpless but his point that they didn't invade anyone for a decade after the First Gulf War still stands. By your logic, we ought to watch out for the Germans and Japanese since their militaries are decent and have a history of invading.[/QUOTE] Except Germany and Japan aren't under the same fascist regimes that they were under during the war. If Germany still had the Nazi party in power, you're damn right I'd be concerned about what they might do. Iraq, on the other hand, did still have its fascist regime in power with the exact same leader.
[QUOTE=Explosions;46183230]Except Germany and Japan aren't under the same fascist regimes that they were under during the war. If Germany still had the Nazi party in power, you're damn right I'd be concerned about what they might do. Iraq, on the other hand, did still have its fascist regime in power with the exact same leader.[/QUOTE] Yet they didn't militarily expand their borders for over a decade. Sure, they [I]could[/I] have, but they didn't. Maybe they probably would have eventually but what-ifs are irrelevant.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46183277]Yet they didn't militarily expand their borders for over a decade. Sure, they [I]could[/I] have, but they didn't. Maybe they probably would have eventually but what-ifs are irrelevant.[/QUOTE] Saddam's military misadventures were only one of the many reasons why he should have been done away with. [editline]8th October 2014[/editline] I hope I don't have to list the other reasons out for you. You can probably fill in the blanks yourself.
[QUOTE=Explosions;46183316]Saddam's military misadventures were only one of the many reasons why he should have been done away with. [editline]8th October 2014[/editline] I hope I don't have to list the other reasons out for you. You can probably fill in the blanks yourself.[/QUOTE] You don't because we aren't talking about those reasons. We're talking about Iraq and invading other countries.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46183328]You don't because we aren't talking about those reasons. We're talking about Iraq and invading other countries.[/QUOTE] We must be talking cross purposes then.
[QUOTE=Aman;46177273]Seriously if you think ISIS is such a massive threat to the US you must have thought Saddam was a massive threat, because on every level Saddam could have been a larger threat. Appeals to emotions don't belong in geopolitics and it always makes me fucking mad seeing them. You like appealing to emotions go save half of the countries in Africa. Oh you mean to say your mainstream news doesn't thump their chest about people dying in droves in Africa so you don't care/dont know? What a surprise. Things like ISIS don't just magically happen there is cause and effect and ISIS was formed for reasons that are way too long gone to try and correct now. I repeat myself so damn much I feel like a broken record I may as well just keep a copy pasta because I've formulated longer and better rebuttals before but I feel like I'm beating a dead horse in front of a crowd of deaf people. Iraq and Syria are too long gone for some bullshit foreign interventionism that's propping up a rotten busted house with elastics. Both countries need to balkanize that is the only reasonable option I can think of, unless you want continual war until they just massacre each other into oblivion. Especially not some nonsense air campaign that has done little to nothing in stopping ISIS advances, they have total initiative on all fronts and continue to have a streak of victories. You want to play the foreign intervention stick your finger in things game you either go ALL in or ALL out not some half assed garbage that just perpetuates the problem. Do you seriously want 100,000s of Americans on the ground yet again trying to police a country that isn't theirs? Fuck this shit is just so short sighted I can't handle it. Not ranting at you specifically joshuadim just people with similar opinions as you.[/QUOTE] Interesting response. [QUOTE]Seriously if you think ISIS is such a massive threat to the US you must have thought Saddam was a massive threat, because on every level Saddam could have been a larger threat.[/QUOTE] Saddam kept to his own borders after we kicked his arse in the Gulf War. He got the message. ISIS as of NOW is a DIRECT threat to hundreds of thousands of lives. Not specifically to the US but foreign intervention is very much needed there. [QUOTE]Appeals to emotions don't belong in geopolitics and it always makes me fucking mad seeing them.[/QUOTE] Please elaborate on this. I'm curious as to see your response. [QUOTE]Things like ISIS don't just magically happen there is cause and effect and ISIS was formed for reasons that are way too long gone to try and correct now.[/QUOTE] Of COURSE they don't happen magically. ISIS happened because of the discontent and instability that has been occurring in the Middle East for the past decade or so. [QUOTE]Iraq and Syria are too long gone for some bullshit foreign interventionism that's propping up a rotten busted house with elastics.[/QUOTE] Intervention in both Iraq and Syria is possible but it would require a massive commitment. They aren't far gone. But Iraq is the more pressing issue (in my mind at least) than Syria. [QUOTE]Both countries need to balkanize that is the only reasonable option I can think of[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, but that's just idiotic. Fragmentation of Syria AND Iraq will not create stability, it will create even more instability as these new smaller states will then contest with each other over borders they believe is rightfully theirs among other things. It will make the problem 100 times worse. [QUOTE]Especially not some nonsense air campaign that has done little to nothing in stopping ISIS advances, they have total initiative on all fronts and continue to have a streak of victories[/QUOTE] The airstrikes have been effective at hitting small convoys of ISIS troops but I agree with you with that it doesn't hinder ISIS advances. Hence, the idea that ground forces are needed to help the Iraqi army make a stand against these monsters. [QUOTE]Do you seriously want 100,000s of Americans on the ground yet again trying to police a country that isn't theirs? [/QUOTE] No one wants that. But it's the thing that MUST be done, unfortunately. (Edit^: To elaborate, it doesn't have to ALL be American troops. Troops from all different countries can chime in.)
[QUOTE=AhoyMate;46182961]Oh yeah kurds recently started rioting and they're burning down our flags, Atatürk's statues and buildings. [video=youtube;ZuiUsGRi0sg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuiUsGRi0sg[/video] Glad we aren't helping these people.[/QUOTE] You realize they're doing this because you're not helping them, right? I think it's kind of unfair for them to be vandalizing statues of Ataturk though because he's probably rolling in his grave at the state modern Turkey is in.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;46185109]See the thread I posted. They could be [I]protesting[/I] but instead they [B]are[/B] vandalizing ; burning schools , opening [B]gunfire[/B] on the police and throwing molotovs at public buses dont help, right?[/QUOTE] To be honest it's a bit much to ask of people who are in danger of being shot, beheaded, raped, etc under an ethnophobic regime to calmly, politely and rationally sit in que silently waiting for you to help them, which turkey is unlikely to do anyways regardless of how they behave. This issue has already been decided and at this point the turkish government, erdogan and many turks themselves have already made up their minds not to help, and at this point are just going to be looking for justification after the fact. Turkey is behaving entirely out of self-interest because of it's previous grievances with the kurds and want to see them weakened or dissolved before they step in to act in their own defense, if they even have to that is.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;46182849]There's different kinds?[/QUOTE] Yeah, by firepower, organization, discipline, etc etc. The firepower of the vietnamese army during the indochina war was negligent, yet their organization and discpline was superb. And so the soviet army was totally disorganized at the start of the WW2, yet their discipline and firepower was superb.
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