[QUOTE=Loriborn;34424772]Good luck. You have this delusional concept that humans are all good people. That the people in "The System" will ever just say "Woops, we've been wrong, let's release them all after the murdered and raped!". Your right to life was thrown away when you threw away another's. Just as you lose your right to drive when you speed/get a DUI. Same concept.[/QUOTE]
did you really just compare taking a man's life to getting a dui and losing your license
seriously
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34424559]how is life in prison more inhumane than death, you make blanketed statements but you never fucking back them up with any real support
also taxpayers pay more for the repeated appeals trials of a death row inmate plus the procedure than they do for a prisoner incarcerated for life without chance of parole
imprisoning someone for life isn't inhumane so long as the person made choices that got them there, which obviously, this man did. we have no right to kill him, because that makes us murderers in the same sense as him[/quote]
Out in the world when, animals take care of their dirty trash. If one does something harmful to the group, it's either exiled or killed. We can't send them to Australia anymore, so we kill them. He was functioning, and being hit as a kid doesn't make you a murderer, nor depression. I got beat around, but yet I don't go around and attack people or blame them for it, this man did.
He made the choice and he must suffer the consequences. We are not murdering a man, we're killing an animal, because that's what he is. He raped and killed people, his own race in cold blood. He went and killed people who were not threatening to him in any way, but for pleasure. I can understand a soldier, killing to protect themselves and those around them or a person who's home or business is being robbed, but this? What he did is a murder, what we are doing is natural. We put down dogs, bears, tigers and lions quickly when they kill us and don't think twice about it. What's wrong about adding this animal to the list?
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34424772]You obviously have no grasp on what prison is like, nor do you comprehend the emotional trauma that follows [b] raping a woman, torturing a little girl, and burning them alive whilst leaving their husband to suffer[/b]. You'd probably want to off yourself anyway. Worst part is, it's almost impossible to do it in prison.[/QUOTE]
Really, he kills people and your worried about HIS Trauma? Go fuck yourself.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34424807]did you really just compare taking a man's life to getting a dui and losing your license
seriously[/QUOTE]
Do you not understand that life isn't as amazing as you make it out to be? That living is amazing, even if your life is a horrible waste of air spent in a cell thinking of how badly you wish you were dead?
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34424772]Good luck. You have this delusional concept that humans are all good people. That the people in "The System" will ever just say "Woops, we've been wrong, let's release them all after the murdered and raped!". Your right to life was thrown away when you threw away another's. Just as you lose your right to drive when you speed/get a DUI. Same concept.[/QUOTE]
The right to life and the right to drive are entirely different concepts.
I'll give you a hint why. One of those things happen to have a very permanent consequence if taken away.
So basically most of you don't believe in the fact that parents(And anybody for that matter) influence the way people behave and grow up. Congratulations, you're denying a cornerstone of modern psychology.
[QUOTE=Gundevil;34424809]What's wrong about adding this animal to the list?[/QUOTE]
Here it is folks. You don't understand this simple concept that he stated. Humans are animals. Just because we are more intelligent, or you think we are superior. We are not. We are animals with a grasp on how to kill eachother for fun rather than survival.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34424772]Good luck. You have this delusional concept that humans are all good people. That the people in "The System" will ever just say "Woops, we've been wrong, let's release them all after he murdered and raped!". Your right to life was thrown away when you threw away another's. Just as you lose your right to drive when you speed/get a DUI. Same concept.
[editline]27th January 2012[/editline]
You obviously have no grasp on what prison is like, nor do you comprehend the emotional trauma that follows [b] raping a woman, torturing a little girl, and burning them alive whilst leaving their husband to suffer[/b]. You'd probably want to off yourself anyway. Worst part is, it's almost impossible to do it in prison.
[editline]27th January 2012[/editline]
You never did tell me why "human life is so sacred".[/QUOTE]
"i know what prison is like because i've obviously spent many years there and i understand the emotional trauma experienced by raping, torturing and killing because i've done that too"
get off your high horse and stop telling me that you know how these people feel
[QUOTE=Gundevil;34424809]Out in the world when, animals take care of their dirty trash. If one does something harmful to the group, it's either exiled or killed. We can't send them to Australia anymore, so we kill them. He was functioning, and being hit as a kid doesn't make you a murderer, nor depression. I got beat around, but yet I don't go around and attack people or blame them for it, this man did.
He made the choice and he must suffer the consequences. We are not murdering a man, we're killing an animal, because that's what he is. He raped and killed people, his own race in cold blood. He went and killed people who were not threatening to him in any way, but for pleasure. I can understand a soldier, killing to protect themselves and those around them or a person who's home or business is being robbed, but this? What he did is a murder, what we are doing is natural. We put down dogs, bears, tigers and lions quickly when they kill us and don't think twice about it. What's wrong about adding this animal to the list?
Really, he kills people and your worried about HIS Trauma? Go fuck yourself.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, convince yourself you're not killing a human, who was born just like you and everyone else. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
If you had any sense you'd worry about what causes him to do this so it doesn't happen to other people.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34424816]Do you not understand that life isn't as amazing as you make it out to be? That living is amazing, even if your life is a horrible waste of air spent in a cell thinking of how badly you wish you were dead?[/QUOTE]
don't those two sentences contradict one another
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34424854]Yeah, convince yourself you're not killing a human, who was born just like you and everyone else. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
If you had any sense you'd worry about what causes him to do this so it doesn't happen again to future people.[/QUOTE]
You act like we are even capable of repairing his damaged brain. Just because we know why he acts, doesn't mean his actions were right. Everything is a result of conditions, of surroundings, and events. That doesn't mean someone isn't responsible for their actions. Under this concept of "Humans have no free will", then no one should be punished or praised for anything, because their actions were just a result of their environment, right?
[editline]27th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34424881]don't those two sentences contradict one another[/QUOTE]
The second sentence was meant to begin with "That you believe..."
[QUOTE=Gundevil;34424809]Out in the world when, animals take care of their dirty trash. If one does something harmful to the group, it's either exiled or killed. We can't send them to Australia anymore, so we kill them. He was functioning, and being hit as a kid doesn't make you a murderer, nor depression. I got beat around, but yet I don't go around and attack people or blame them for it, this man did.
He made the choice and he must suffer the consequences. We are not murdering a man, we're killing an animal, because that's what he is. He raped and killed people, his own race in cold blood. He went and killed people who were not threatening to him in any way, but for pleasure. I can understand a soldier, killing to protect themselves and those around them or a person who's home or business is being robbed, but this? What he did is a murder, what we are doing is natural. We put down dogs, bears, tigers and lions quickly when they kill us and don't think twice about it. What's wrong about adding this animal to the list?[/QUOTE]
"i'm obviously superior to men on the basis of their mental instabilities"
in that case i should be able to kill mentally handicapped children because they're inferior and we need to take out the trash
i mean animals do it all the time, so obviously it's justified
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34424854]Yeah, convince yourself you're not killing a human, who was born just like you and everyone else. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
If you had any sense you'd worry about what causes him to do this so it doesn't happen to other people.[/QUOTE]
No I know what I'm doing. I'm killing a human who was born. Learned to walk, run, play and ride a bike. Who went to school and had friends, who grew up in an enviroment probably like mine with a drunk dad who likes to slap you around. He probably had a few times he snuck out with the guys to have a few beers, or see a movie he wasn't supposed to or get high. He probably had a girl he was real sweet on his senior year.
I know exactly what I am doing. I'm killing a person who is like me and everyone else. Who lived a life and made choices. I accept the fact that he is what he is, an animal as we all are, but unlike you I can sleep with knowing we killed one of our own because he went against his own.
Do not tell me I am trying to make it easier, I know what I am saying and I stand by it.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34424911]"i'm obviously superior to men on the basis of their mental instabilities"
in that case i should be able to kill mentally handicapped children because they're inferior and we need to take out the trash
i mean animals do it all the time, so obviously it's justified[/QUOTE]
Mental instabilities? He was treated for depression. If he had enough sense to get treated for that I would do the same. I did not say to kill people who had no choice as to their life, I am saying you kill the people who go against the group. Does a kid go against us because he is a bit slower? No. But he sure as shit doesn't go around and kill his own for fucking pleasure, does he?
People who go against the group get what they do. I never claimed superiority, that is your little addition to what you think my mindset is. People make choices and suffer for them, that is what I am saying. I am saying it is completely natural to want this man dead and to follow through with it.
You could easily say that a DUI was justified because someone was drunk because they broke up with their girlfriend, and that, even if they ran over an old man, they shouldn't be punished because it wasn't his fault! Blame the girlfriend for breaking up with him! Blame his parents for making him so sensitive to relationships! Blame the parents' parents for instilling that in them! You see where I'm going? You can't trace conditions forever, you have to start at the result, not the source.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34424894]You act like we are even capable of repairing his damaged brain. Just because we know why he acts, doesn't mean his actions were right. Everything is a result of conditions, of surroundings, and events. That doesn't mean someone isn't responsible for their actions. Under this concept of "Humans have no free will", then no one should be punished or praised for anything, because their actions were just a result of their environment, right?[/QUOTE]
"everything is a result of conditions, of surroundings, and events"
thank you for proving my point
also, you're telling me that all of these people are irreparable and therefore should be killed
good logic and also where the fuck are you getting no free will from
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34424894]You act like we are even capable of repairing his damaged brain. Just because we know why he acts, doesn't mean his actions were right. Everything is a result of conditions, of surroundings, and events. That doesn't mean someone isn't responsible for their actions. Under this concept of "Humans have no free will", then no one should be punished or praised for anything, because their actions were just a result of their environment, right?[/QUOTE]
No, doing that reinforces good behavior and deters bad behavior, which is a benefit for you. The death sentence and current prison system do no such thing and it's way more expensive.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34424958]"everything is a result of conditions, of surroundings, and events"
thank you for proving my point
also, you're telling me that all of these people are irreparable and therefore should be killed
good logic and also where the fuck are you getting no free will from[/QUOTE]
No free will is a fact. Unless you believe we magically have the power to change things, every action is a result of brain chemistry.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism[/url]
If there were free will, modern psychology couldn't exist because there would be no cause for any actions. You could also argue that parenting doesn't matter because they still choose their actions without influence when they grow up, which is a ridiculous idea to anyone with any grasp of psychology.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34424958]"everything is a result of conditions, of surroundings, and events"
thank you for proving my point
also, you're telling me that all of these people are irreparable and therefore should be killed
good logic and also where the fuck are you getting no free will from[/QUOTE]
Possibly from the fact your saying that nobody can be held accountable for anything, and that every action is the influence of something other then themselves.
Some times repairing them is not the right thing to do.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34424958]"everything is a result of conditions, of surroundings, and events"
thank you for proving my point
also, you're telling me that all of these people are irreparable and therefore should be killed
good logic and also where the fuck are you getting no free will from[/QUOTE]
But you don't understand. If we believe everything is a result of conditions, then we shouldn't hold anyone accountable for anything. But because that's just jack shit crazy, we have to hold people responsible for their actions.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34424929]You could easily say that a DUI was justified because someone was drunk because they broke up with their girlfriend, and that, even if they ran over an old man, they shouldn't be punished because it wasn't his fault! Blame the girlfriend for breaking up with him! Blame his parents for making him so sensitive to relationships! Blame the parents' parents for instilling that in them! You see where I'm going? You can't trace conditions forever, you have to start at the result, not the source.[/QUOTE]
again you're equating something you have no grasp of to something like being upset
having a condition is not the same as being upset and you continuously fail to grasp this simple concept
starting at the result is the same as me saying "well you killed this man and there are no other possible explanations for your actions and therefore i will have to put you to death"
that's so fucking ignorant
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34424983]No, doing that reinforces good behavior and deters bad behavior, which is a benefit for you. The death sentence and current prison system do no such thing and it's way more expensive.
No free will is a fact. Unless you believe we magically have the power to change things, every action is a result of brain chemistry.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism[/url][/QUOTE]
But we can't teach him now. The damage is done. He can't be rehabilitated as if he were a child learning right from wrong. That part of his life is over.
Now can we get the same sentence for the police who do the same thing.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425007]again you're equating something you have no grasp of to something like being upset
having a condition is not the same as being upset and you continuously fail to grasp this simple concept
starting at the result is the same as me saying "well you killed this man and there are no other possible explanations for your actions and therefore i will have to put you to death"
that's so fucking ignorant[/QUOTE]
Why should the reasons matter? A person should be punished for their actions, not their moral reasoning for it. If a man killed another man in the named of God, because he truly believed he was put on earth to do that, does that justify him? Only in cases of the event, like in cases of self defense, should the emotional reasoning ever be considered.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34424983]No free will is a fact. Unless you believe we magically have the power to change things, every action is a result of brain chemistry.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism[/url][/QUOTE]
I HAVE A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE WEEEEOOO WEEEOOOO LOOK AT ME I CAN LINK TO DETERMINISM
determinism is a fucking concept that comes out of philosophy which can be debated endlessly
the fact that you think that's fact only proves that you have no idea what you're talking about
It's funny, because you're allowing your emotions of "I did this because X" get in the way of "You did X, here's the punishment X deserves."
[editline]27th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425041]I HAVE A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE WEEEEOOO WEEEOOOO LOOK AT ME I CAN LINK TO DETERMINISM
determinism is a fucking concept that comes out of philosophy which can be debated endlessly
the fact that you think that's fact only proves that you have no idea what you're talking about[/QUOTE]
Nice job arguing with someone who was on your side.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425010]But we can't teach him now. The damage is done. He can't be rehabilitated as if he were a child learning right from wrong. That part of his life is over.[/QUOTE]
And you're basing this off of what exactly? Did you also read the part where I said it's more expensive than life long prison and it doesn't deter crime at all? Are you also aware of the ridiculously high amounts of innocents that get killed?
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425041]I HAVE A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE WEEEEOOO WEEEOOOO LOOK AT ME I CAN LINK TO DETERMINISM
determinism is a fucking concept that comes out of philosophy which can be debated endlessly
the fact that you think that's fact only proves that you have no idea what you're talking about[/QUOTE]
Nice job being ignorant of science and then shunning me [I]because I link to my sources?[/I]
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425045]It's funny, because you're allowing your emotions of "I did this because X" get in the way of "You did X, here's the punishment X deserves."
[editline]27th January 2012[/editline]
Nice job arguing with someone who was on your side.[/QUOTE]
What about punishing the parents to deter other parents from being bad, that would benefit society, wouldn't it?
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425064]And you're basing this off of what exactly? Did you also read the part where I said it's more expensive than life long prison and it doesn't deter crime at all? Are you also aware of the ridiculously high amounts of innocents that get killed?[/QUOTE]
And under our current system, we can't fix that. Live with the present. With our present system, he gets the option to die, or live life in prison. Of the two, death is more humane and financially secure.
[QUOTE=Gundevil;34424996]Possibly from the fact your saying that nobody can be held accountable for anything, and that every action is the influence of something other then themselves.
Some times repairing them is not the right thing to do.[/QUOTE]
let's think about this: a mentally handicapped person kills someone. do you blame them? boy oh boy what a moral dilemma we find ourselves in
repairing is always of benefit, because they have the potential to be reformed to live healthier lives in prison where they can find some semblance of peace
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425081]let's think about this: a mentally handicapped person kills someone. do you blame them? boy oh boy what a moral dilemma we find ourselves in
repairing is always of benefit, because they have the potential to be reformed to live healthier lives in prison where they can find some semblance of peace[/QUOTE]
Would you consider the man who murdered, raped, tortured, and burned a wife and daughter to be mentally handicapped? There is a difference between being unaccountable for your actions because your mind is not developed (handicapped) and being perfectly developed, but a product of your life.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425045]Nice job arguing with someone who was on your side.[/QUOTE]
i was pointing out the idiocy of the presumptuous nature of his reply
you can't definitively say we have no free will
You also have this assumption that all people can be saved and salvaged from their old ways and move on completely from their actions and life. People who go to war have PSTD that can leave them emotionally unstable for their entire life. This guy murdered and rape a woman, and burned a little girl. I don't think he is capable of getting over that.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425079]And under our current system, we can't fix that. Live with the present. With our present system, he gets the option to die, or live life in prison. Of the two, death is more humane and financially secure.[/QUOTE]
Status quo fallacy. Find a new answer.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425104]Would you consider the man who murdered, raped, tortured, and burned a wife and daughter to be mentally handicapped? There is a difference between being unaccountable for your actions because your mind is not developed (handicapped) and being perfectly developed, but a product of your life.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'd say there's something fucked up about someone that kills rapes and tortures. You'd have to be messed up not to agree.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425130]You also have this assumption that all people can be saved and salvaged from their old ways and move on completely from their actions and life. People who go to war have PSTD that can leave them emotionally unstable for their entire life. This guy murdered and rape a woman, and burned a little girl. I don't think he is capable of getting over that.[/QUOTE]
PTSD is treatable.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425105]i was pointing out the idiocy of the presumptuous nature of his reply
you can't definitively say we have no free will[/QUOTE]
Yeah, science can. You can watch your nervous system interact with incoming signals from your senses then spit out a new signal. Again, cause&effect in the brain is a basic cornerstone of psychology and sciences that pertain to the brain. People aren't magically exempt from the laws of nature either.
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