[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425105]you can't definitively say we have no free will[/QUOTE]
Actually, it's a very important block of modern psychology.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425104]Would you consider the man who murdered, raped, tortured, and burned a wife and daughter to be mentally handicapped? There is a difference between being unaccountable for your actions because your mind is not developed (handicapped) and being perfectly developed, but a product of your life.[/QUOTE]
so obviously it's completely in our nature to be sociopaths and can in no way, shape or form be changed by our environment
obviously this is black and white
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425081]let's think about this: a mentally handicapped person kills someone. do you blame them? boy oh boy what a moral dilemma we find ourselves in
repairing is always of benefit, because they have the potential to be reformed to live healthier lives in prison where they can find some semblance of peace[/QUOTE]
No, you put him into an asylum or group home to be monitored because he had no grasp over his choices.
Try this. An up and coming law student preys on college women and pretend to be injured. He then takes them, rapes them and kills them. He was able to get into law school, he understood laws and comprehended the actions he took.
If you can comprehend your choice, then you should suffer for it. Should we 'repair' Pickton? How about Bernardo? Do we really want them to be walking among the population? You can not fix what it not broken. They made a choice, they suffer for that choice.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425134]Status quo fallacy. Find a new answer.[/QUOTE]
Philosophy applies in utopia society. This is not Utopian society. We have to base our decisions with the environment we are given to make them in. You can't say "I can't answer this question because both answers I don't like". Learn to deal with dilemmas instead of assuming everything will change to fit your idea of a perfect society.
[editline]27th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425140]so obviously it's completely in our nature to be sociopaths and can in no way, shape or form be changed by our environment
obviously this is black and white[/QUOTE]
Humans are naturally evil. We can change to our environment, but if that environment doesn't allow you to develop ways to overcome that inherent evil, then you are dangerous.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34424833]So basically most of you don't believe in the fact that parents(And anybody for that matter) influence the way people behave and grow up. Congratulations, you're denying a cornerstone of modern psychology.[/QUOTE]
You [I]do[/I] know that saying "child abuse doesn't excuse someone from killing another person many years later" isn't the same as "child abuse doesn't affect anyone", right?
Right?
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34424742]Then what causes people to rape and kill? Explain it Mr. Self-Proclaimed-Psychologist.
I challenge anyone here to explain what causes someone to rape and kill and then tell me that it is entirely the fault of the accused.[/QUOTE]
Lack of caring about other people's well being, greed, wanting to exert power over people, etc. [I]Sometimes[/I] mental disorders.
Entirely their fault =/= enough of their fault to not blame things out of their control.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34424983]No free will is a fact. Unless you believe we magically have the power to change things, every action is a result of brain chemistry.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism[/url]
If there were free will, modern psychology couldn't exist because there would be no cause for any actions. You could also argue that parenting doesn't matter because they still choose their actions without influence when they grow up, which is a ridiculous idea to anyone with any grasp of psychology.[/QUOTE]
No where on that page does it say that it's a fact. Only that it's an idea.
Also, quantum physics.
Oh, we don't have any control over ourselves, due to there being no free will? Then I guess it's out of our control that we're going to kill him. Nothing can be done about it, it's determined already.
Yeah um no.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425151]Philosophy applies in utopia society. This is not Utopian society. We have to base our decisions with the environment we are given to make them in. You can't say "I can't answer this question because both answers I don't like". Learn to deal with dilemmas instead of assuming everything will change to fit your idea of a perfect society.[/QUOTE]
No, you're just using a cop-out answer so you don't have to debate. "This is how it is, deal with it."
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_quo_bias[/url]
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425151]Humans are naturally evil. We can change to our environment, but if that environment doesn't allow you to develop ways to overcome that inherent evil, then you are dangerous.[/QUOTE]
lol, hahah, you actually believe that don't you.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425138]Actually, it's a very important block of modern psychology.[/QUOTE]
and you obviously have no grasp of modern psychology as a whole, because your view is entirely biological
to say that it's in the basis of our nerves and nerves alone is entirely presumptuous
if you look at string theory, you can see that we can never know the position of a particle and its speed, therefore necessitating free will
look i just proved you wrong with OTHER SCIENCE
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425203]No, you're just using a cop-out answer so you don't have to debate. "This is how it is, deal with it."
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_quo_bias[/url]
lol, hahah, you actually believe that don't you.[/QUOTE]
I am asking you to tell me which of the two options you prefer:
A) Painless Death
B) Life in Prison. 50+ years of fear and isolation.
It's a dilemma. It's a moral choice you get to make out of two bad options.
Also, if you believe that humans are born with some concept of "being good to others for the sake of being good", then you reject the whole basis of why religion, laws, and taught morals exist.
[editline]27th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425217]and you obviously have no grasp of modern psychology as a whole, because your view is entirely biological
to say that it's in the basis of our nerves and nerves alone is entirely presumptuous
if you look at string theory, you can see that we can never know the position of a particle and its speed, therefore necessitating free will
look i just proved you wrong with OTHER SCIENCE[/QUOTE]
You should be arguing with Rubs about the "no free will thing" not me.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425217]if you look at string theory, you can see that we can never know the position of a particle and its speed, therefore necessitating free will[/QUOTE]
That's not even String Theory. That's just quantum mechanics.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425151]Humans are naturally evil. We can change to our environment, but if that environment doesn't allow you to develop ways to overcome that inherent evil, then you are dangerous.[/QUOTE]
lmao yeah you're right sorry
obviously because i didn't have parents to impose moral standards i'm going to grow up to become a serial killer
good logic 10 out of 10 stars
[QUOTE=Last or First;34425186]Lack of caring about other people's well being, greed, wanting to exert power over people, etc. [I]Sometimes[/I] mental disorders.
Entirely their fault =/= enough of their fault to not blame things out of their control.[/QUOTE]
What causes a lack of care, greed, and the desire for dominance?
[QUOTE=Last or First;34425186]No where on that page does it say that it's a fact. Only that it's an idea.
Also, quantum physics.[/QUOTE]
What does quantum physics have to do with anything? Are you implying quantum physics means there free will? What? Do you seriously believe that some how we shift the matter of our Earth? You think too highly of humans.
[QUOTE=Last or First;34425247]That's not even String Theory. That's just quantum mechanics.[/QUOTE]
i'm not here to deliberate specifics, michio kaku told me it was string theory and so i believed his words
it falls under the same relative domain and makes the same point regardless of its categorization
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425250]lmao yeah you're right sorry
obviously because i didn't have parents to impose moral standards i'm going to grow up to become a serial killer
good logic 10 out of 10 stars[/QUOTE]
Lack of parents isn't what will make you a killer, it's the environment you grow up in that will. Your actions result from your experiences, and how you deal with them. Lack of parents won't make you a killer if you're raised in a happy home; but say you're in an unhappy home. And you are bullied. And malnourished. And beaten. That environment has the capability to drive you to bad actions, depending on the other variables in your environment, and how you react to said factors. (which is also totally dependent on factors you may not even comprehend)
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425238]I am asking you to tell me which of the two options you prefer:
A) Painless Death
B) Life in Prison. 50+ years of fear and isolation.
It's a dilemma. It's a moral choice you get to make out of two bad options.[/QUOTE]
How does this even pertain to the argument? Not everyone is going to pick the same choice, so what would it prove if I picked either of them?
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425238]Also, if you believe that humans are born with some concept of "being good to others for the sake of being good", then you reject the whole basis of why religion, laws, and taught morals exist.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how. Explain it to me. And just because they aren't born "evil" doesn't mean they're born "good", that's a false dichotomy.
Actually, you can't prove what people are naturally like when they're born, so don't bother using it as any argument.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425257]What does quantum physics have to do with anything? Are you implying quantum physics means there free will? What? Do you seriously believe that some how we shift the matter of our Earth? You think too highly of humans.[/QUOTE]
quantum physics is as much a science as psychology, albeit not a "social science"
however, if you're going to nitpick the biological perspective, which is dependent on the chemical perspective, we can assume that physics applies to this
and yes, we can imply that quantum physics means there is free will, just as we can imply that biology is obviously the only thing that impacts our minds
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;34424397]And I've seen nothing to prove that he was, because it seems like nobody even tried to find out exactly why he did what he did.
They are simply going to condemn a man to death without even attempting to see if he is redeemable.[/QUOTE]
I know quite a few people that are either depressed or have went through traumatic experiences, being like that doesn't make you go into someones house and kill the occupants goddammit, this person wanted money, which is why he forced the wife to go to the bank, and he still fucking raped her and strangled her. Your response is to rehabilitate him and let him go free? That's sick.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;34425323]I know quite a few people that are either depressed or have went through traumatic experiences, being like that doesn't make you go into someones house and kill the occupants goddammit, this person wanted money, which is why he forced the wife to go to the bank, and he still fucking raped her and strangled her. Your response is to rehabilitate him and let him go free? That's sick.[/QUOTE]
Why?
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425296]How does this even pertain to the argument? Not everyone is going to pick the same choice, so what would it prove if I picked either of them?
I don't see how. Explain it to me.[/QUOTE]
You honestly think, that when someone is born, they will inherently do good, and only good, if placed a way from the "temptation of civilization"? Who is disregarding physiology now? Sympathy is learned from experiences. How can you say that someone will inherently act humane without being taught how to behave? Isn't that basically saying that no one needs to teach morals to their children, as they will have been born knowing right from wrong?
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425283]Lack of parents isn't what will make you a killer, it's the environment you grow up in that will. Your actions result from your experiences, and how you deal with them. Lack of parents won't make you a killer if you're raised in a happy home; but say you're in an unhappy home. And you are bullied. And malnourished. And beaten. That environment has the capability to drive you to bad actions, depending on the other variables in your environment, and how you react to said factors. (which is also totally dependent on factors you may not even comprehend)[/QUOTE]
so you contradict yourself in saying that we're innately evil by saying that our environment makes us who we are
lmao so you just proved me right
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425311]quantum physics is as much a science as psychology, albeit not a "social science"
however, if you're going to nitpick the biological perspective, which is dependent on the chemical perspective, we can assume that physics applies to this
and yes, we can imply that quantum physics means there is free will, just as we can imply that biology is obviously the only thing that impacts our minds[/QUOTE]
How does quantum mechanics imply free will? You forgot to explain that part.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425344]You honestly think, that when someone is born, they will inherently do good, and only good, if placed a way from the "temptation of civilization"? Who is disregarding physiology now? Sympathy is learned from experiences. How can you say that someone will inherently act humane without being taught how to behave? Isn't that basically saying that no one needs to teach morals to their children, as they will have been born knowing right from wrong?[/QUOTE]
You can't prove what children are like when they're born, so don't bother using it as any argument.
Children are jerks, and will be jerks for no good reason, because they can. This is why we laugh at other people's expense. Not because "Society told us to!" but because human's genuinely find enjoyment in other peoples' pain.
[editline]27th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425357]How does quantum mechanics imply free will? You forgot to explain that part.
You can't prove what children are like when they're born, so don't bother using it as any argument.[/QUOTE]
Give me evidence that people are born good then.
[editline]27th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425345]so you contradict yourself in saying that we're innately evil by saying that our environment makes us who we are
lmao so you just proved me right[/QUOTE]
Bring me evidence that man is born good.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425257]What causes a lack of care, greed, and the desire for dominance?
What does quantum physics have to do with anything? Are you implying quantum physics means there free will? What? Do you seriously believe that some how we shift the matter of our Earth? You think too highly of humans.[/QUOTE]
Personalities. Which are partly affected by nature, partly affected by nurture. Not necessarily mental disorders.
If a person's mental disorders cause them to be unable to grasp reality or morality, then it's not primarily their fault. If they just don't give a shit about other people, though, that doesn't mean that they have some mental disorder, it could just mean that they're jackasses who care about themselves more than anyone else.
What the fuck does determinism have to do with anything? Are you implying the existence or nonexistence of free will means that a person's sentence should be lighter or heavier? They still did what they did. They still had the same reasons.
And no, I'm saying that quantum physics means that there is a layer of uncertainty in the universe, so everything being determined already is bullshit, as the unpredictable positions and speeds of electrons aren't determined.
Also, you could define a person's mind as the particles and energy that make up their brain. But metaphysics mumbo jumbo doesn't mean shit to the subject matter.
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;34423989]It doesn't matter how cheap the actual method for execution is. You could use a 1$ bullet and it would still end up costing more than keeping them for life.
The majority of the cost of the death penalty comes from the cost of the legal process. The only way to fix this is to get rid of all the red tape that prevents the death penalty from being carried out so easily.
And if you think that's a good idea then you are as big of a moron as SpaceGhost is.[/QUOTE]
You're an idiot, the death penalty system costs around $137 million a year, rehabilitation costs $60 billion a year and billions of dollars are wasted effort from the failed attempts. Prison reforms are needed to a bullet costs less than a dollar, no bullshit process, kill them when you have absolute proof they did it.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425357]How does quantum mechanics imply free will? You forgot to explain that part.[/QUOTE]
no you just forgot to read my explanation
you can't know the position and speed of a sub-atomic particle, meaning that things are entirely random
if everything is random based on this, there is no sequence of events, our lives aren't planned out before us, because how could they be if these particles move randomly and can't be known at any given point in time? therefore, we have free will
[QUOTE=Bassplaya7;34418457]One of those cases where I genuinely don't know how I feel about the death penalty, though I'm usually against it. What they did was monstrous and terrified the community.[/QUOTE]
Lol Hypocrite
I'm against the death sentence, and I'm against this also.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425367]Children are jerks, and will be jerks for no good reason, because they can. This is why we laugh at other people's expense. Not because "Society told us to!" but because human's genuinely find enjoyment in other peoples' pain.[/QUOTE]
You got anything to back that up or is this another baseless statement?
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425367]Give me evidence that people are born good then.[/QUOTE]
You can't. I never made any assertation about what they're born like in the first place, [I]you did.[/I] You should be the one supplying proof that they're bad, since that's what you stated.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425409]You got anything to back that up or is this another baseless statement?
You can't. I never made any assertation about what they're born like in the first place, [I]you did.[/I] You should be the one supplying proof that they're bad, since that's what you stated.[/QUOTE]
I will attest to humans being born "neutral", but in terms of survival, what we'll instinctively do, those actions are considered morally "wrong" and so, if we were to survive, the actions we take in order to survive, as animals, will delve into what society calls "bad".
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425405]no you just forgot to read my explanation
you can't know the position and speed of a sub-atomic particle, meaning that things are entirely random
if everything is random based on this, there is no sequence of events, our lives aren't planned out before us, because how could they be if these particles move randomly and can't be known at any given point in time? therefore, we have free will[/QUOTE]
Quantum mechanics are predicable enough. That's why when you throw a ball with the same force under the same conditions it does the same thing.
You could have crossed the grand canyon with that logical leap. Quantum mechanics are random therefor free will? What? You're still not explaining this.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425448]I will attest to humans being born "neutral", but in terms of survival, what we'll instinctively do, those actions are considered morally "wrong" and so, if we were to survive, the actions we take in order to survive, as animals, will delve into what society calls "bad".[/QUOTE]
So how did laws and morals form if everyone would instinctively do bad things? Someone must have done something good? Also, it's much more beneficial and efficient to work together to survive, things typically considered "good". Animals do it too.
You do what you have to to survive, that's human instinct, and a lot of times, it can get into what we think of as morally wrong. Killing, stealing, etc.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425367]Bring me evidence that man is born good.[/QUOTE]
i can't, but you can't give me evidence that men are born evil either
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