[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425469]i can't, but you can't give me evidence that men are born evil either[/QUOTE]
The actions we are forced to take to survive, that we have to [b]remove our taught morals to do[/b], display how we are capable of doing evil with the justification of our own life. Which in and of itself is not evil, but is instead an example of how we are born to do what we call "evil" in order to survive.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425454]Quantum mechanics are predicable enough. That's why when you throw a ball with the same force under the same conditions it does the same thing.
You could have crossed the grand canyon with that logical leap. Quantum mechanics are random therefor free will? What? You're still not explaining this.[/QUOTE]
the first sentence makes your entire response hilarious
"quantum mechanics are predictable enough"
yep okay so you're obviously one of the few people in the world who have even the slightest grasp of this concept
don't insult the intelligence of actual researchers who work had to understand this concept
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425454]Quantum mechanics are predicable enough. That's why when you throw a ball with the same force under the same conditions it does the same thing.
You could have crossed the grand canyon with that logical leap. Quantum mechanics are random therefor free will? What? You're still not explaining this.[/QUOTE]
It [I]isn't[/I] as predictable at the level it actually affects, though. As in, atomic or molecular level. And electrical interactions between them.
Please don't bash others for a supposed ignorance of psychology, and then later go on to compare psychology and thought processes to throwing a ball. It just makes you look stupid.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425496]The actions we are forced to take to survive, that we have to [b]remove our taught morals to do[/b], display how we are capable of doing evil with the justification of our own life. Which in and of itself is not evil, but is instead an example of how we are born to do what we call "evil" in order to survive.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's evil to fight for your own life, if you're under threat of dying, then by all means fight your killer. But this man wasn't under a threat, so you can't say he was did this because he was born to survive at all costs.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425502]the first sentence makes your entire response hilarious
"quantum mechanics are predictable enough"
yep okay so you're obviously one of the few people in the world who have even the slightest grasp of this concept
don't insult the intelligence of actual researchers who work had to understand this concept[/QUOTE]
Well regardless, you still haven't explained how quantum mechanics gives us free will. I hate to say it, but whether or not it's predictable isn't relevant and whether or not I was wrong about it is irrelevant.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425515]I don't think it's evil to fight for your own life, if you're under threat of dying, then by all means fight your killer. But this man wasn't under a threat, so you can't say he was did this because he was born to survive at all costs.[/QUOTE]
So then you concede he is evil for the sake of being evil. (albeit a result of an irreversible upbringing)
We can't change his past, but we can say "Look, I don't care how fucked up your childhood was, you don't rape a chick and burn her and her daughter to death, for no good reason. Because you easily threw away their life without regard for them because of your past, you throw away your own life."
One who has no respect for "the sacredness of human life" shouldn't be subject to the argument that it's sacred.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425515]
Well regardless, you still haven't explained how quantum mechanics gives us free will. I hate to say it, but whether or not it's predictable isn't relevant and whether or not I was wrong about it is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFLR5vNKiSw[/media]
[editline]27th January 2012[/editline]
is that acceptable?
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425561]So then you concede he is evil for the sake of being evil. (albeit a result of an irreversible upbringing)
We can't change his future, but we can say "Look, I don't care how fucked up your childhood was, you don't rape a chick and burn her and her daughter to death, for no good reason. Because you easily threw away their life without regard for them because of your past, you throw away your own life."
One who has no respect for "the sacredness of human life" shouldn't be subject to the argument that it's sacred.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that he did it because he had a terrible environment and possibly bad genes, both things out of his control.
You still fail to provide proof that we can't change his future.
We can also put him in jail for life, which is cheaper for everyone. We can also change his future and make him a productive member of society.
Humans are valuable and it's more efficient to raise one and make it work than to raise one and kill it.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425613]I'm saying that he did it because he had a terrible environment and possibly bad genes, both things out of his control.
You still fail to provide proof that we can't change his future.
We can also put him in jail for life, which is cheaper for everyone. We can also change his future and make him a productive member of society.
Humans are valuable and it's more efficient to raise one and make it work than to raise one and kill it.[/QUOTE]
Humans are not as valuable as people make them out to be. We are overpopulated as it is. We don't need another human on this planet, we are already past capacity. We have a shit ton of productive humans that are unable to find work, what makes you think that one who killed people will get a job before all of them? Besides, you also assume that he is both able to be fixed, and that our current system would even allow him to be.
Even if both things are out of his control, how he deals with his trauma years after the events occurred, is up to him. He could have went to counseling, church, something. And he definitely didn't have to choose two random people who had nothing to do with him, to die for his own pleasure.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425592][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFLR5vNKiSw[/media]
[editline]27th January 2012[/editline]
is that acceptable?[/QUOTE]
That's not determinism, that's fatalism. Completely different. His entire argument is gone.
Uncertainty and the randomness of electrons doesn't mean free will. Using that argument we could say electrons control our life, which still isn't us and it still isn't free will.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425648]Humans are not as valuable as people make them out to be. We are overpopulated as it is. We don't need another human on this planet, we are already past capacity. We have a shit ton of productive humans that are unable to find work, what makes you think that one who killed people will get a job before all of them? Besides, you also assume that he is both able to be fixed, and that our current system would even allow him to be.
Even if both things are out of his control, how he deals with his trauma years after the events occurred, is up to him. He could have went to counseling, church, something. And he definitely didn't have to choose two random people who had nothing to do with him, to die for his own pleasure.[/QUOTE]
Wheres your source saying we're over capacity? There are a lot of systems in other countries that can fix criminals. We can lock him up then fix him later.
He could have chosen something but he didn't. Not his fault as there's no free will.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;34425664]Humans are valuable? Okay it's not like there's over 7 billion of us or anything.[/QUOTE]
I don't want my taxes going to kill someone that could be fixed for a gain or potentially killing someone that isn't broken in the first place.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425666]That's not determinism, that's fatalism. Completely different. His entire argument is gone.
Uncertainty and the randomness of electrons doesn't mean free will. Using that argument we could say electrons control our life, which still isn't us and it still isn't free will.
Wheres your source saying we're over capacity? There are a lot of systems in other countries that can fix criminals. We can lock him up then fix him later.
He could have chosen something but he didn't. Not his fault as there's no free will.
I don't want my taxes going to kill someone that could be fixed for a gain or potentially killing someone that isn't broken in the first place.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that in general, we are overpopulating the planet, we are vying for resources we have too few of. Even you must have the common sense to realize that Earth is struggling to economically deal with 7 billion humans.
Also, if you say that it's "not his fault there is no free will", anyone should be allowed to do anything because it's technically not their fault. You're stating that responsibility should not ever be given to anybody for anything.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425666]That's not determinism, that's fatalism. Completely different. His entire argument is gone.
Uncertainty and the randomness of electrons doesn't mean free will. Using that argument we could say electrons control our life, which still isn't us and it still isn't free will.[/QUOTE]
what the FUCK are you talking about
fatalism and determinism fall under the same philosophical schools, you're talking out of your ass and using wikipedia quicksearches to back up your responses
using a philosophical school to back up your entire argument, especially when you're using it in the wrong context, proves that you not only have no idea what you're talking about, but that you have no concept of how to prove a point
also by your logic in saying that his point is fatalist you contradict yourself and prove me right
gj
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425721]I'm saying that in general, we are overpopulating the planet, we are vying for resources we have too few of. Even you must have the common sense to realize that Earth is struggling to economically deal with 7 billion humans.[/QUOTE]
We have plenty of resources. The economic depression isn't the result of human population.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425721]Also, if you say that it's "not his fault there is no free will", anyone should be allowed to do anything because it's technically not their fault. You're stating that responsibility should not ever be given to anybody for anything.[/QUOTE]
If everyone was allowed to do anything I would most certainly get hurt. I support laws because it prevents me from getting hurt and it promotes my gain. The death penalty doesn't in any way and in fact detracts from it. It also puts me at risk of getting killed by the system if I did something under some absurd law.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425736]what the FUCK are you talking about
fatalism and determinism fall under the same philosophical schools, you're talking out of your ass and using wikipedia quicksearches to back up your responses
using a philosophical school to back up your entire argument, especially when you're using it in the wrong context, proves that you not only have no idea what you're talking about, but that you have no concept of how to prove a point
also by your logic in saying that his point is fatalist you contradict yourself and prove me right
gj[/QUOTE]
Whether or not it's fatalism still doesn't matter because his argument only means that electrons control our lives, not us. That's still not free will. Keep trying though.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;34425783]I.. what.. wow..
That's not what he's even talking about, you do realize the Earth has limited resources right?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and it can only manage so many people, but we have plenty to manage the people we have right now and we can always recycle them.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425752]Whether or not it's fatalism still doesn't matter because his argument only means that electrons control our lives, not us. That's still not free will. Keep trying though.[/QUOTE]
so now you're reproaching your original argument
also, electrons do control our lives you moron
if we didn't have electrons we wouldn't be able to exist lmao
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425809]Yeah, and it can only manage so many people, but we have plenty to manage the people we have right now and we can always recycle them.[/QUOTE]
You are living in this fantasy world again. Listen to any researcher or expert, they will tell you the Earth is not meant to handle this population.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425821]so now you're reproaching your original argument
also, electrons do control our lives you moron
if we didn't have electrons we wouldn't be able to exist lmao[/QUOTE]
So you're admitting that electrons control our lives and that we don't, therefor we have no free will? I win? That's it? You're conceding? Good.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425831]You are living in this fantasy world again. Listen to any researcher or expert, they will tell you the Earth is not meant to handle this population.[/QUOTE]
Really? You got any proof?
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation]Wikipedia says we're both right (Or wrong)[/url]
[quote]Most estimates for the carrying capacity of the Earth are between 4 billion and 16 billion.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;34419840]The stupid thing about that argument is that it relies solely on people being incapable of learning. If people were to get harsher punishments I do think that it would start making people think twice.[/QUOTE]
It will most likely do the exact opposite of what you've intended to happen. Giving excessive punishment can cause people to defy authority rather than follow it. This is due to how they believe on how unethical it is.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;34425403]You're an idiot, the death penalty system costs around $137 million a year, rehabilitation costs $60 billion a year and billions of dollars are wasted effort from the failed attempts. Prison reforms are needed to a bullet costs less than a dollar, no bullshit process, kill them when you have absolute proof they did it.[/QUOTE]
Where the hell did you get your source on that?
Every source I've seen for prison costs it lists rehabilitation programs as $1,612 per prisoner each year, and the the rest of the cost to keep them in prison is $45,490 per year.
Death row imprisonment costs $137,000 per prisoner each year.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425857]So you're admitting that electrons control our lives and that we don't, therefor we have no free will? I win? That's it? You're conceding? Good.
Really? You got any proof?[/QUOTE]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425857]So you're admitting that electrons control our lives and that we don't, therefor we have no free will? I win? That's it? You're conceding? Good.[/QUOTE]
excuse me but WAT
no, i'm saying that electrons are the reason we exist because they bind our atoms together, however they move randomly as michio kaku explains
if we are made up of atoms, and atoms are made up of electrons, we can therefore know that we are random and are in no way deterministic
therefore, we have free will on the basis of our electrons moving randomly, which you've already acceded to
i rest my case
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425857]So you're admitting that electrons control our lives and that we don't, therefor we have no free will? I win? That's it? You're conceding? Good.[/QUOTE]
hey
hey bro
guess what our brains our made out of
it'll [I]blow your fucking mind[/I]
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425911]excuse me but WAT
no, i'm saying that electrons are the reason we exist because they bind our atoms together, however they move randomly as michio kaku explains
if we are made up of atoms, and atoms are made up of electrons, we can therefore know that we are random and are in no way deterministic
therefore, we have free will on the basis of our electrons moving randomly, which you've already acceded to
i rest my case[/QUOTE]
Do you even know the definition of free will?
Here it is:
[quote]the ability to act at one's own discretion.[/quote]
So how can we act at our own discretion if, by your argument, electrons randomly control our actions?
[QUOTE=Loriborn;34425893]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation[/QUOTE]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation]Wikipedia says we're both right (Or wrong)[/url]
[quote]Most estimates for the carrying capacity of the Earth are between 4 billion and 16 billion.[/quote]
The argument about over population is now irrelevant seeing as it can't be proven. I'd rather we have more people to invent and build the economy though.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;34425403]You're an idiot, the death penalty system costs around $137 million a year, rehabilitation costs $60 billion a year and billions of dollars are wasted effort from the failed attempts. Prison reforms are needed to a bullet costs less than a dollar, no bullshit process, kill them when you have absolute proof they did it.[/QUOTE]
I've probably misread your statement, but executions don't occur immediately after they're sentenced. They're put in a (maximum security) prison for a temporary amount of years before they do.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34425920]Do you even know the definition of free will?
So how can we act at our own discretion if, by your argument, electrons randomly control our actions?[/QUOTE]
how on earth does something randomly control
also yeah this means that the electrons will never have a fixed position, meaning they go wherever
you're missing the point on purpose at this point and everyone knows it
[QUOTE=Atlascore;34425987]Rubs10 you're an idiot, yes the Earth can support 7 billion people, if we all lived off the land in shacks, if the entire population lived similarly to Americans or any other developed country we'd run out of resources fast.
I mean even now we're devouring resources at an alarming rate, mostly because of countries like India and China rapidly modernizing.[/QUOTE]
Wikipedia says it can hold an estimated 4-16 billion. So unless you've got some Earth shattering revelation that the scientific community needs to know about, your statement means nothing.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34425996]how on earth does something randomly control
also yeah this means that the electrons will never have a fixed position, meaning they go wherever
you're missing the point on purpose at this point and everyone knows it[/QUOTE]
Which is it, do humans control themselves or do electrons control humans? You've claimed it's both.
Wait, was the withdrawal of money the only evidence they had to convict him of murder? No confessions? No proof that they bought those materials? If there isn't any sufficient evidence, at least attempt to give it a benefit of doubt, don't assume that they deserve it.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34426017]Wikipedia says it can hold an estimated 4-16 billion. So unless you've got some Earth shattering revelation that the scientific community needs to know about, your statement means nothing.[/QUOTE]
here's an earth-shattering revelation:
if everyone consumed at the rate america does, we'd run out of resources faster than we could produce new technologies to discovery new things to consume
do you understand this
please respond yes or no
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34426050]here's an earth-shattering revelation:
if everyone consumed at the rate america does, we'd run out of resources faster than we could produce new technologies to discovery new things to consume
do you understand this
please respond yes or no[/QUOTE]
Do you have proof for that? How do you know that?
[QUOTE=Rubs10;34426017]Which is it, do humans control themselves or do electrons control humans? You've claimed it's both.[/QUOTE]
electrons are random, electrons make up atoms, atoms make up cells, cells make up human beings
therefore, humans are random
therefore, humans have the ability to choose because they're not predestined to do anything given that atoms all across the universe operate randomly
do you not fucking understand this simply concept yet or are you just being an asshole on purpose
[QUOTE=SystemGS;34426088]electrons are random, electrons make up atoms, atoms make up cells, cells make up human beings
therefore, humans are random
therefore, humans have the ability to choose because they're not predestined to do anything given that atoms all across the universe operate randomly
do you not fucking understand this simply concept yet or are you just being an asshole on purpose[/QUOTE]
Earth has grass, Earth is a planet, Mars is a planet, therefore Mars has grass.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_N_IYi2c0E[/media]
Carl Sagan sarcastically mocks people like you.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning[/url]
Forget the grand canyon man, your logical leap has taken you to space.
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