Transgender wrestler Mack Beggs identifies as a male. He just won the Texas state girls title. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Dr.C;51880283]Well shit, if you and more people were willing to accept him as a male, he wouldn't have BTFO the girls and would have competed where he should. this quote is confusing as fuck because she recognizes he should be competing with the rest of the boys, but still insists on treating him as a girl.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Foogooman;51881231]These people still referring to him as "she" are a real class act. "She needs to be wrestling boys" "But you just called this person 'she', so shouldn't 'she' be wrestling girls?" "NO BUT, UH" You can't have your bigot cake and eat it too. Either he's a guy and should be wrestling guys, or he's a girl and should be wrestling girls, you could at least be consistent.[/QUOTE] Because they see him as a girl hopped up on testosterone. In their minds, he's still a girl (because transphobia), but is taking testosterone which makes him stronger than """other girls.""""

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;51881406]This is what I figured intuitively. Thanks for the insight! Going off this in no way could anyone in good faith call it a PED when matched up to a male. He should have been allowed to compete with the boys.[/QUOTE] Def not when match to a biological male. A healthy biological man who's taking the same dose as a FtM would have blood T levels over 1000, easily, which starts getting into dangerous territory since it can affect red blood cell production (too much). When matched against women, then yes, because a woman's T levels (yes, biological women do produce small amounts of T!), tends to be under 100, normally.

[QUOTE=ZuXer;51881066]Honestly, if you're taking hormones you shouldn't compete in a physical competition, period. Kind of a catch-22, but he should've withdrawn untill his transition is completed, just out of fair play. In this situation, kinda feels like nobody (could've) won. The girls didn't win, because they got an unfair matchup. The boy didn't win, because he had to compete against girls. If he competed against boys, then those matchups would've been considered unfair. Really, in this position, you have to ask yourself, what is more important, yourself, or the sport.[/QUOTE] Completing transition wouldn't have mattered. Texas law goes by birth certificate. They even tried suing to get him to wrestle in the male division. It's quit what you love or wrestle at an unfair advantage (that was clearly warned to the people in charge). [editline]27th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=BuffaloBill;51880795]Hey at least he's got a somewhat legit reason to still refer to him as her. If you've always known someone as a her, it's difficult to switch to him just like that.[/QUOTE] Or you can switch pronouns out of respect for the person. He didn't have a slip of the tounge during the interview. He actively referred to him as a she.

[QUOTE=Foogooman;51881231]These people still referring to him as "she" are a real class act. "She needs to be wrestling boys" "But you just called this person 'she', so shouldn't 'she' be wrestling girls?" "NO BUT, UH" You can't have your bigot cake and eat it too. Either he's a guy and should be wrestling guys, or he's a girl and should be wrestling girls, you could at least be consistent.[/QUOTE] Honestly those lingual gymnastics that come out of stories like this are so obnoxious. There's a difference between showing your disdain or support and making a comprehensible sentence.

[QUOTE=ZuXer;51881066]Honestly, if you're taking hormones you shouldn't compete in a physical competition, period. Kind of a catch-22, but he should've withdrawn untill his transition is completed, just out of fair play. In this situation, kinda feels like nobody (could've) won. The girls didn't win, because they got an unfair matchup. The boy didn't win, because he had to compete against girls. If he competed against boys, then those matchups would've been considered unfair. Really, in this position, you have to ask yourself, what is more important, yourself, or the sport.[/QUOTE] Mack could have been allowed to compete against men, but the request was refused for absurd reasons (Apparently this is determined by your testosterone level, meaning he was at a disadvantage there?). This is the whole reason why he had to compete in the girls category. I think not allowing someone to compete, particularly at a highschool level which is just a few short years, is basically forcing them to abandon the sport. Overall this was a complicated situation handled in the worst way possible.

Man, the mental gymnastics are real.

[QUOTE=Foogooman;51881231]These people still referring to him as "she" are a real class act. "She needs to be wrestling boys" "But you just called this person 'she', so shouldn't 'she' be wrestling girls?" "NO BUT, UH" You can't have your bigot cake and eat it too. Either he's a guy and should be wrestling guys, or he's a girl and should be wrestling girls, you could at least be consistent.[/QUOTE] I don't think it should be this hard to understand what they mean. They obviously view this person as a woman, and don't think that a woman taking hormones to become stronger against other women is fair. They think he shouldn't be wrestling, not that he should be wrestling men.

if youre on testosterone you should be competing as a male, no exceptions the sport is about physical ability & agility, and testosterone plays a HUGE role in the body's capacity to do both of those. there's a reason why in many strength sports, the bar for males is significantly higher than females, and that's because the physiological change your body experiences on test is incomparable to without it.

Funny how forcing trans people to live according to their birth sex actually has tangible consequences. The worst part of this is seeing people blame trans men for this instead of the laws that force us to either compete against girls or give up entirely on certain hobbies.

[QUOTE=waylander;51881036]you dont need transgender rights infact trans rights are another form of discrimination you need public acceptance[/QUOTE] is this another one of those 'oh woe is me, the poor oppressed majority!' stances

[QUOTE=The golden;51882214]Firstly, HRT (hormone replacement therapy) has to be taken indefinitely in some form or another. You never stop taking it. Secondly, why can't he compete with the boys? If he's got literally the same testosterone level as them and thus has the exact same chance for equal muscle density and growth..why can't he compete? I really hate how often the best "compromise" people come up with is to just punish the trans people so everyone else can feel better. Can this fucking stop, please? They get punished enough just for existing.[/QUOTE] Should boys with lower than average testosterone also be allowed to take testosterone?

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;51880795]Hey at least he's got a somewhat legit reason to still refer to him as her. If you've always known someone as a her, it's difficult to switch to him just like that.[/QUOTE] I lost someone I loved over this. It's hard.

[QUOTE=The golden;51882214]Firstly, HRT (hormone replacement therapy) has to be taken indefinitely in some form or another. You never stop taking it. Secondly, why can't he compete with the boys? If he's got literally the same testosterone level as them and thus has the exact same chance for equal muscle density and growth..why can't he compete? I really hate how often the best "compromise" people come up with is to just punish the trans people so everyone else can feel better. Can this fucking stop, please? They get punished enough just for existing.[/QUOTE] I'll be honest, I'm not really familiar with the transition process, but I have heard people referring to it as being finished, or still in being in the process. It would've been unfair to pit him against the rest of the boys, because as others have pointed out, there are other factors, like skeletal structure, that would give Mack a disadvantage. So he's not [I]literally[/I] the same. I mean, even with hormone therapy, could he reach the same musclemass, and a bone structure that would be identical to a biological male? And even then, any sort of meddling with hormones in sport's is a big taboo, you can look up how much shit people got over it durning the 20th centry in the Olympics. Of course it didn't help when there were actual female athletes that were hopped on male growth hormones, it kinda poisioned the well. This is a complete shitshow, no matter what, one party would be offended by the decision, but by far this was probably the worst choice. If Mack competed against boys, I'm sure it would've been great for his self esteem in general, but this way, it's like the system still said fuck you to him. I still think he should've withdrawn from this competition, but keep training and try again later down the road. Because this way, he probably got way more negative attention than he bargained for. And again, what is more important, that you be yourself, or that you compete in a high school sport

[QUOTE=sgman91;51886053]Should boys with lower than average testosterone also be allowed to take testosterone?[/QUOTE] There's not really an average number for "normal" male testosterone. There's a range, and doctors don't always agree on where the boundaries are. What I've seen as typical is 800-1200 "units" (there's an actual measure here but I can't remember or describe what it actually means). Falling below that range can possibly result in a medical diagnosis, especially for a pubescent boy. I would say that prescribing corrective testosterone would not only be acceptable, but recommended.

[QUOTE=ZuXer;51886636]I'll be honest, I'm not really familiar with the transition process, but I have heard people referring to it as being finished, or still in being in the process. It would've been unfair to pit him against the rest of the boys, because as others have pointed out, there are other factors, like skeletal structure, that would give Mack a disadvantage. So he's not [I]literally[/I] the same. I mean, even with hormone therapy, could he reach the same musclemass, and a bone structure that would be identical to a biological male?[/quote] First off, you're acting like a "biological male" is a concrete concept in every measure. Not every guy has the same exact muscle or bone structure. Some are taller and lankier, and some are shorter and stockier. You can end up with differences in muscle build based on the type of workout you do. I think it's plainly ridiculous what you're trying to say here, that if a trans man isn't 100% accurate to the nebulous concept of an ideal male, a standard which is clearly impossible to reach, [I]even for some men,[/I] then it's not a fair competition. How about you allow him to compete and prove himself based on the quality of his skills rather than the purity of his gender? You know, [I]like an athlete?[/I] [quote]And even then, any sort of meddling with hormones in sport's is a big taboo, you can look up how much shit people got over it durning the 20th centry in the Olympics. Of course it didn't help when there were actual female athletes that were hopped on male growth hormones, it kinda poisioned the well.[/quote] Apples and oranges. You're talking about people who used hormones to cheat in sporting events, whereas trans athletes are trying to compete in events that even you acknowledge they probably have a standing disadvantage in. [quote]This is a complete shitshow, no matter what, one party would be offended by the decision, but by far this was probably the worst choice. If Mack competed against boys, I'm sure it would've been great for his self esteem in general, but this way, it's like the system still said fuck you to him. I still think he should've withdrawn from this competition, but keep training and try again later down the road. Because this way, he probably got way more negative attention than he bargained for. And again, what is more important, that you be yourself, or that you compete in a high school sport[/QUOTE] I think the fact that we're talking about his cause at all means that what he did was absolutely worth it.

[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;51886730]First off, you're acting like a "biological male" is a concrete concept in every measure. Not every guy has the same exact muscle or bone structure. Some are taller and lankier, and some are shorter and stockier. You can end up with differences in muscle build based on the type of workout you do. I think it's plainly ridiculous what you're trying to say here, that if a trans man isn't 100% accurate to the nebulous concept of an ideal male, a standard which is clearly impossible to reach, [I]even for some men,[/I] then it's not a fair competition. How about you allow him to compete and prove himself based on the quality of his skills rather than the purity of his gender? You know, [I]like an athlete?[/I] [/quote] You don't see why this is a problem? If he can take hormones, what's stopping other athletes to use this as an excuse to give other athletes hormones? I'm saying this because there were/are tons of cases like this, where people exploited similiar circumstances. I agree with you, that not every male has the ideal muscle and bone structure, etc, and they have to compensate for that by training. But then comes a situation like this, we have someone who is identifying as a male, who is also taking hormones. Doesn't that seem unfair to you? I think it's unfair to the other athletes. There was a 2014 study that said that 16.5% of the examined male athletes have low testosterone levels, what's stopping them from taking hormones then? [URL="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cen.12445/abstract;jsessionid=97D2CF8AAC9FD40D0511C6FD3FCB4B9E.f03t03"]Here's the study[/URL] Granted, the sample size is pretty small, below 1000 people, but you get the idea. This study shows that the this whole hormone situation needs a redo, because, as it says the IOC definition of a woman as one who has a ‘normal’ testosterone level is untenable. [QUOTE]Apples and oranges. You're talking about people who used hormones to cheat in sporting events, whereas trans athletes are trying to compete in events that even you acknowledge they probably have a standing disadvantage in.[/QUOTE] I brought it up because people did this in the past, and probably still are. I honestly don't think that this was a case of Mack wanting an easy gold medal, he wanted to compete against boys, but do you not think that there are people out there who would abuse this? Remember that just recently, almost the entire Russian olympic team was caught using steroids, and they were helped by the actual government. This shit goes deep, and people will try to cheat the system at any given time [quote]I think the fact that we're talking about his cause at all means that what he did was absolutely worth it.[/QUOTE] I agree with you, this is a discussion that we should have, because there will be more and more cases like this, and there is a need for a solution, so shit like this wouldn't happen. There needs to be a discussion that tackles the hormone issue. Just to be clear, I think it would've been best if Mack either got transferred into the boy's division, or if he withdrew to protest the decision. Because him still being in the girl's division is unfair to the other athletes , and I think it was a bit selfish, but if his goal was to make a scandal out of it, well good job then I guess. I don't think that this case will set a precedent though. The people who didn't allow Mack to trasfer are the real assholes here honestly

[QUOTE=The golden;51886816]If your testosterone is low enough that it is affecting your muscles and bones then that is a considerable health concern - especially if your estrogen levels are equally low. The hypothetical situation you're making here is actually a medical problem and one that should be treated quickly. It's not an everyday occurrence.[/QUOTE] I'm talking about being on the low end of normal, not being diagnosable low. It's relevant because you want to change the rules. Instead of the current rules that forbid any testosterone, you want to only forbid testosterone if it raises you out of the normal male range. This would seemingly have to apply to all competitors to be fair.

[QUOTE=sgman91;51886907]I'm talking about being on the low end of normal, not being diagnosable low. It's relevant because you want to change the rules. Instead of the current rules that forbid any testosterone, you want to only forbid testosterone if it raises you out of the normal male range. This would seemingly have to apply to all competitors to be fair.[/QUOTE] There's no problem with that though as testosterone in the normal male range would not cause any advantage over other contestants so long as they were also in the normal range.

maybe have transgendered people compete against eachother? men transitioning from m to f already have a mans advantage and transgendered people who go from f to m gets a mans advantage which could probably create a fair matchup

[QUOTE=L0dde;51888220]maybe have transgendered people compete against eachother? men transitioning from m to f already have a mans advantage and transgendered people who go from f to m gets a mans advantage which could probably create a fair matchup[/QUOTE] That sets them even farther apart as an 'other.' They aren't competing in the male league, so they aren't male. They aren't competing in the female league, so they aren't female. They're -different,- which is what most, if not all, trans people are trying to avoid. [editline]28th February 2017[/editline] It also basically gives you a discrimination list. If you're in the trans league, you're trans. If you weren't out before, well congrats now you are.

Can we just drop the whole sports gender divide?

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51888281]Can we just drop the whole sports gender divide?[/QUOTE] I've always thought this was the better option. Put people in genderless divisions if the sport calls for it and end of story.

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51888281]Can we just drop the whole sports gender divide?[/QUOTE] If you want to ignore concrete biological differences between the sexes then sure. I'm sure it'll be fair for all the women who physically can't achieve the same muscle mass.

He applied to compete in the men's division and got rejected. Don't get mad when he only qualifies for the women's sections and wins.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51880903]I consider myself an ally of trans individuals, but I still think that in the interests of sportsmanship, it's unfair that he was allowed to compete in a women's wrestling championship while on testosterone, which could be considered a PED. Was there no way he could've gotten into a/the men's tournament?[/QUOTE] He does too. Literally the only party that wants him to compete as a girl is the UIL because they can't be bothered to amend their rules.

[QUOTE=DinoJesus;51888530]If you want to ignore concrete biological differences between the sexes then sure. I'm sure it'll be fair for all the women who physically can't achieve the same muscle mass.[/QUOTE]A woman taking medication becomes a man, I don't think we can talk about concrete biological differences anymore.

[quote]“She’s standing there holding her head high like she’s the winner,” said Patti Overstreet, a mother of a wrestler in the boys’ division. “She’s not winning. She’s cheating.”[/quote] This pisses me the fuck off. The UIL was the one to make these calls. The UIL is the one that said the man should be in the women's league. The UIL ignored their own regulations if this article to be believed. They didn't rule that Mack was ineligible to compete. They didn't rule that Mack could compete in the men's league. This dumbfuck's reaction to this complete and total failure of the UIL to properly enforce their own rules and guidelines fairly and justly? "IT'S THE TRANS-PERSON'S FAULT! SHE SHOULD BE ASHAMED!"

This is a really weird area. I think it's one of those areas where morals/ethics get in the way of ensuring a fair sports environment.

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51888613]A woman taking medication becomes a man, I don't think we can talk about concrete biological differences anymore.[/QUOTE] This sentence literally doesn't mean anything. The woman becomes man, but there's still a biological difference between them. You can transition between one or the other, but what matters is the testosterone or estrogen, which is what typically gives people a male or female appearance and characteristics. I don't think he won the Texas states girl's title because he was the most skilled wrestler there, but because he outclasses all of them while being on testosterone. Taking testosterone while performing in a sport is considered doping because of this. Male sports perform at a much higher level of intensity than female sports, and if you compare the top male football and basketball players to the top female players the difference is huge. Just like how females are under performing in the armies PT, because the requirements have been set to a standard that is difficult for even physically fit males to achieve. Even the Olympics are gender segregated.

[QUOTE=DinoJesus;51888530]If you want to ignore concrete biological differences between the sexes then sure. I'm sure it'll be fair for all the women who physically can't achieve the same muscle mass.[/QUOTE] Then create divisions like in fighting. You don't generally put a featherweight up against the biggest heavyweight. Likewise I'd bet you can use whatever metrics possible to group people without resorting to gender. Some sports don't really need this though (maybe like baseball or soccer?).