Transgender wrestler Mack Beggs identifies as a male. He just won the Texas state girls title. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Aircraft;51897290] This of course is an anti doping nightmare, but its also extremely unfair to permaban transgender people because of the potential for it.[/QUOTE] It isn't transgendered people being permabanned, it's people on artificial testosterone being permabanned. Males with low T undergo the same treatment and are prevented from competing for the same reasons. It isn't "unfair." Unreasonable? Maybe. But it doesn't single out any particiular type of person. [quote] A perfect example of that mindset stupidly skewing regulation. You either determine the metrics to figure out what doses are considered doping and what aren't, or you bar any hormone using participants, regardless of reason.[/quote] That's *kind of* what I'm saying. You either allow it for everyone or you don't allow it for anyone. The problem is, organizations have already tried the method of establishing metrics and found it doesn't work. Tests just cannot beat doping when the athlete is on artificial hormones. They can take the test and then just pop something fast acting afterward. If a natural athlete did the same, they'd completely crash their edocrine system and spend the next few weeks trying to battle critically low testosterone, the tradeoff is not worth it. It's difficult for someone who claims natural to beat the system. Even if their test is within "normal" ranges, detection of long-lasting esters is possible via blood tests. Detection of post cycle therapy drugs, ones used for recovery of the natural endocrine system, is also possible. An athlete on prescribed hormone therapy is just about untouchable. Almost any of the metabolites that would be found in the bloodstream would be from prescribed medication. A smart athlete on TRT could stick to just their TRT dosing with base compounds without esters prior to events after testing, and nothing would ever be detected ever. They could even be tested the day after the event and come up completely clean for those base compounds, they're in and out extremely quickly. The "allow it" option has been tried and failed miserably in every organization that attempted it. Therefore, most have shifted to the zero-tolerance standpoint and therefore any individual on TRT, transgender or not, should not be allowed to compete. That's the way it's going to be either until steroids are no longer demonized (never) or some magical test comes around that's impossible to beat (most likely never).

[QUOTE=MaverickIB;51897370]It isn't transgendered people being permabanned, it's people on artificial testosterone being permabanned. Males with low T undergo the same treatment and are prevented from competing for the same reasons. [/QUOTE] What you just said is like saying "People who are diabetic aren't banned, its just people who are on insulin". Take a minute to think about what you just said.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;51897393]What you just said is like saying "People who are diabetic aren't banned, its just people who are on insulin". Take a minute to think about what you just said.[/QUOTE] Yeah, kind of with Kyle on this one. There was no reason that he could not compete against males.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;51897393]What you just said is like saying "People who are diabetic aren't banned, its just people who are on insulin". Take a minute to think about what you just said.[/QUOTE] What percentage of men have hypogonadism? I would guess that it's a higher percentage than the percentage of people who've undergone FtM transitions. If so, then the ban on testosterone has a larger effect on non-trans people than on trans people. This is entirely different than diabetes where all people who take insulin fall into that category.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;51897393]What you just said is like saying "People who are diabetic aren't banned, its just people who are on insulin". Take a minute to think about what you just said.[/QUOTE] This is ridiculous. More men are on testosterone for low T than there are FtM transgender individuals on TRT. Do you really think the artificial testosterone market is being held afloat by transgender people?

[QUOTE=sgman91;51897656]What percentage of men have hypogonadism? I would guess that it's a higher percentage than the percentage of people who've undergone FtM transitions. If so, then the ban on testosterone has a larger effect on non-trans people than on trans people.[/quote] Except my analogy covers both those with hypogonadism and FtM trans individuals thus rendering argument invalid. [quote] This is entirely different than diabetes where all people who take insulin fall into that category.[/QUOTE] In what way is it different? Diabetics don't produce enough insulin (which is a hormone by the way) to function normally. FtM trans individuals and those with hypogonadism don't produce enough Testosterone to function normally. Its a valid analogy. [editline]1st March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=MaverickIB;51897716]This is ridiculous. More men are on testosterone for low T than there are FtM transgender individuals on TRT. Do you really think the artificial testosterone market is being held afloat by transgender people?[/QUOTE] Point to where I insinuated any of that. [editline]1st March 2017[/editline] You also have yet to prove that short term high dosage testosterone confers any benefit in the span of a couple of hours.

Your analogy insinuates most people on hormone therapy are transgender, because I claimed all people on hormone therapy are banned from most sports, not just the transgendered. Your analogy was trying to say they are one in the same, since pretty much everyone on insulin is a diabetic. No matter how you try to spin it, it isn't unfair toward transgender people. Unfortunately, they are encompassed by the ban, but they make up a very small percentage of the people who are prevented from competing due to the treatment they are receiving. [quote]My analogy states that people who need medication for a disorder should not be banned from athletics because aforementioned medication can be abused. You're pulling shit out of your ass lol.[/quote] Except said medication is a performance enhancing drug, is easily abused, and difficult to test for. Some bigtime organizations still go ahead with therapeutic use exemptions for some individuals, but the cost of testing those athletes continuously to verify they aren't violating use, especially when it isn't a cheap test (a college sports program doesn't get to pay for testing with insurance), isn't a viable option for smaller organizations. I think you're trying to argue something nobody is going against you on. I'm not for banning transgender individuals on TRT from competition. However, if they are going to be allowed to compete, all males on hormone therapy should be able to compete. Keyword: should. The bottom fucking line is, this isn't a hypothetical argument. Organizations [B]have tried to allow it [/B]and it failed miserably every time, either because they didn't have the time, money, or manpower to enforce standards or it led to rampant PED usage. I'm only talking realistically here, as much as I wish it weren't that way, as long as hormones are demonized by athletics, people receiving them medically are going to have a hard time competing. I don't think transgender people should be exempt from that hard time while men with low T watch from the bleachers and wonder why someone essentially receiving the same treatment for a very similar condition gets to compete when they don't. I am advocating fairness in the sense that everyone gets a slice of the pie or nobody does. [QUOTE=Kyle902;51897724] You also have yet to prove that short term high dosage testosterone confers any benefit in the span of a couple of hours.[/QUOTE] Can I point you to a study? No. Sorry, people don't do research on drugs that are technically no longer manufactured professionally. Nobody is taking trenbolone base cooked up on some guys stove with raws he got from China hidden in a lampshade and studying the effects of slamming someone with a megadose of hormone that's 10 times more anabolic/androgenic than testosterone. Nobody is doing the same thing with test base either, since testosterone is not manufactured without an ester pharmaceutically, it has no purpose. To conduct TRT with test base would mean multiple painful injections (it stings like a motherfucker, much moreso than hormones with esters) every day. But, I can provide anecdotal evidence. From tons of sources. From the totally not personal and totally was just a friend who did it (as if someone would openly admit to doing something illegal on a public forum unless they were retarded), to knowing tons of fighters and powerlifters who have benefited from it. Male hormones increase focus, reaction times, aggression, and a whole host of other effects that aren't bound in muscle growth. Nobody is growing 10lbs of muscle in 1 hour from a test base shot, but superdosing someone with testosterone is going to give them a pretty strong edge because you're essentially making their levels well over 5-6000ng/dl for a brief period of time. Imagine receiving 5 times the normal dose of T, then multiply the power of that T by 10 in the case of using trenbolone. It's fucking absurd, and you'd be a fool to think literally flooding every androgen receptor in the body at one time with the most powerful steroid in the world wouldn't give someone an edge over joe schmoe with normal test levels.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;51897724]Except my analogy covers both those with hypogonadism and FtM trans individuals thus rendering argument invalid. In what way is it different? Diabetics don't produce enough insulin (which is a hormone by the way) to function normally. FtM trans individuals and those with hypogonadism don't produce enough Testosterone to function normally. Its a valid analogy. [editline]1st March 2017[/editline] Point to where I insinuated any of that. [editline]1st March 2017[/editline] You also have yet to prove that short term high dosage testosterone confers any benefit in the span of a couple of hours.[/QUOTE] Banning insulin would only apply to diabetics, making a ban of insulin functionally equivalent to a ban of diabetics. Banning testosterone treatments applies to both people going through an FtM transition and men with hypogonadism, making the ban not equivalent to a ban of FtM individuals.

[QUOTE=MaverickIB;51897741]Your analogy insinuates most people on hormone therapy are transgender, because I claimed all people on hormone therapy are banned from most sports, not just the transgendered.[/QUOTE] How exactly does my analogy insinuate this? My analogy states that banning people who take a medically necessary drug is essentially the same as banning people with disorders that require usage of the drug. I did not specifically state transgenderism nor is it even remotely insinuated by the post. My point has been consistent throughout the thread. If you are only using testosterone supplements to get in the normal male range then you should allowed to compete. The only time I've brought up transgender people is when I refuted your nonsense about hormones increasing strength in a few hours. [quote] Your analogy was trying to say they are one in the same, since pretty much everyone on insulin is a diabetic.[/quote] My analogy states that people who need medication for a disorder should not be banned from athletics because aforementioned medication can be abused. You're pulling shit out of your ass lol. [quote] No matter how you try to spin it, it isn't unfair toward transgender people.[/quote] support this [quote] Unfortunately, they are encompassed by the ban, but they make up a very small percentage of the people who are prevented from competing due to the treatment they are receiving.[/quote] I never refuted this. Perhaps you should actually read the other parties argument? [editline]1st March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;51897751]Banning insulin would only apply to diabetics, making a ban of insulin functionally equivalent to a ban of diabetics. Banning testosterone treatments applies to both people going through an FtM transition and men with hypogonadism, making the ban not equivalent to a ban of FtM individuals.[/QUOTE] Are you dense? Okay here let me simplify my argument down to the most basic possible structure to avoid this rampant misinterpretation. Banning someone from athletics due to medication required for their general wellbeing is the same as banning someone due to their illness(such as FtM trans people and those sufferering from hormone deficiencies.). Especially if they can prove that they aren't abusing hormones. This is of course something that both FtM trans individuals and sufferers of hypogonadism can easily prove as people with either condition require regular bloodwork designed explicitly to test for their sex hormone levels. [editline]1st March 2017[/editline] and come to think of it the number of people affected is completely irrelevant anyways. An injustice is an injustice regardless of the number of people affected. [editline]1st March 2017[/editline] MaverickIB you have yet to prove that injecting hormones a few hours before an activity confers any advantage BTW. But I suppose you can't do that or you would've already.