• Sensationalist as fuck unofficial Ron Paul commercial.
    116 replies, posted
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382573]Distortion of the truth? "the reality is that our military presence on foreign soil is as offensive to the people that live there as armed chinese troops would be if they were stationed in Texas" what? for a long time our military presence was welcomed in SK. Same with Germany. It's propoganda, plain and simple. Don't try to whitewash it.[/QUOTE] really because A. pretty fucking sure the video is speaking in reference to the war on terror B. i seriously [B]SERIOUSLY[/B] hope you're not going to try and tell me the people of afghanistan or iraq appreciate us destroying their villages and droning them down in the streets because they look like terrorists so yeah i'd say it's a fair comparison not to mention in the korean war and in WWII we were helping those people in wars they were already involved in, wars that were destroying their countries, and we were there for assistance, not to target the people living there, so even if the video was referring to those "invasions" (WHICH IT ISNT), you're still wrong
[QUOTE=Kopimi;34382608]really because [b]A. pretty fucking sure the video is speaking in reference to the war on terror[/b] B. i seriously [B]SERIOUSLY[/B] hope you're not going to try and tell me the people of afghanistan or iraq appreciate us destroying their villages and droning them down in the streets because they look like terrorists so yeah i'd say it's a fair comparison[/QUOTE] A. You're making an assumption there. Later on he mentions "bases in other countries". For me, that alludes to the other bases we have in other nations. While the majority of the video does indeed refer to the war on terror, that doesn't give it free reign to make generalizations about US bases overseas and American troops on foreign soil like it does. B. when did I say that?
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34381956]First part of the video anyone will agree with, it's mainly the second part where he attacks Obama that I find ridiculous. Obama ended the war, regardless. I just think Ron Paul generalizing about the presence of American troops on foreign soil is stupid.[/QUOTE] First of all, the speech used in the video was written years ago back in 2009 way before Obama announced his plans to withdraw from Iraq. Also, this video was released by a Ron Paul SuperPAC just a couple of weeks before Obama made his announcement. So it isn't ridiculous of Ron Paul to try to convince Obama to do the right thing, which Obama eventually did years later. And all the reasons Facepunchers are saying that this Ron Paul video sucks, is the exact same arguments the rest of the neo-conservative GOP candidates (specifically Santorum and Gingrich) use against Ron Paul in the debates. I guess Facepunchers are no different than neo-conservatives.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382489]late as shit? sir this video is 1 month old. While others of the same speech have been posted, they all pale in comparison to this one in exposing how ridiculous his generalizations are. I'm not saying it's a bad commercial, in fact it's a FUCKING MASTERPIECE of demagoguery. I'm just pointing out how it distorts the truth.[/QUOTE] uhm, what generalization? this ad was toward the GOP'ers who supports candidates that want to occupy Iraq and other countries again, what part of that do you not understand? this is how the ad is supposed to work and why - a) Majority of GOP voters consists of conservatives or people that still supports the war or occupation. b) Majority of those same people sees China or Russia as possible threats in the future due to their status or because they lived through the Cold War. c) It tries to make them see in the occupied state's perspectives, why they attack soldiers, why they're angry, and etc. d) It tries to convince them that they wouldn't have this attitude with us if we simply try to use diplomacy and trade instead of threatening them with violence. do you get it now?
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382623]A. you're making an assumption there. Later on he mentions "bases in other countries". For me, that alludes to the other bases we have in other nations. B. when did I say that?[/QUOTE] because we don't have bases in the middle east because clearly there's NO WAY he's talking about the middle eastern conflict, you know, the one that we are currently involved in, the one that is a subject of fierce debate, the one that paul campaigns on ending? are you seriously fucking trying to tell me this video is about wwii and the korean war instead of the war on terror? i don't know how you can even try to tell me to use common sense when you're actually pretending this video isn't about the war on terror, you either have to be extremely desperate to make your weak, weak point, or you're legitimately stupid
[QUOTE=GoodStuff;34382638]First of all, the speech used in the video was written years ago back in 2009 way before Obama announced his plans to withdraw from Iraq. Also, this video was released by a Ron Paul SuperPAC just a couple of weeks before Obama made his announcement. So it isn't ridiculous of Ron Paul to try to convince Obama to do the right thing, which Obama eventually did years later. And all the reasons Facepunchers are saying that this Ron Paul video sucks, is the exact same arguments the rest of the neo-conservative GOP candidates (specifically Santorum and Gingrich) use against Ron Paul in the debates. I guess Facepunchers are no different than neo-conservatives.[/QUOTE] I'm aware in which the context this speech was written. I'm arguing against the timing of this video's release and the manner in which it presents his points.
so what, the use of typography and a dramatic voiceover, as well as the video being released now while paul is campaigning strong for the 2012 presidency, [B]that[/B] is what upsets you about this video?
[QUOTE=Kopimi;34382663]because we don't have bases in the middle east[/QUOTE] never said we didn't. [QUOTE=Kopimi;34382663] because clearly there's NO WAY he's talking about the middle eastern conflict, you know, the one that we are currently involved in, the one that is a subject of fierce debate, the one that paul campaigns on ending? are you seriously fucking trying to tell me this video is about wwii and the korean war instead of the war on terror? i don't know how you can even try to tell me to use common sense when you're actually pretending this video isn't about the war on terror, [b]you either have to be extremely desperate to make your weak, weak point, or you're legitimately stupid[/b][/QUOTE] It is about the war on terror. That does not mean that it can generalize about US troops on foreign soil and US presence in overseas bases. no, I'm just against generalizations in political ads for fuck's sake. That's what this entire fucking topic is about, pointing out how this ad is propaganda with it's generalizations. again, if you're point is so solid, why are you attacking me? why are you getting hot headed? [editline]24th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Kopimi;34382701]so what, the use of typography and a dramatic voiceover, as well as the video being released now while paul is campaigning strong for the 2012 presidency, [B]that[/B] is what upsets you about this video?[/QUOTE] more about the timing and the way it generalizes, but yeah.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382670]I'm aware in which the context this speech was written. I'm arguing against the timing of this video's release and the manner in which it presents his points.[/QUOTE] Well your reasoning is extremely flawed. For example: [QUOTE=trotskygrad;34381507] #2: Obama eventually did withdraw from Iraq. The video makes it seem like we haven't [/QUOTE] No shit, the video (IIRC, September 2011) was and speech (2009) were made before Obama announced withdrawal from Iraq.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;34382655]uhm, what generalization? this ad was toward the GOP'ers who supports candidates that want to occupy Iraq and other countries again, what part of that do you not understand? this is how the ad is supposed to work and why - a) Majority of GOP voters consists of conservatives or people that still supports the war or occupation. b) Majority of those same people sees China or Russia as possible threats in the future due to their status or because they lived through the Cold War. c) It tries to make them see in the occupied state's perspectives, why they attack soldiers, why they're angry, and etc. d) It tries to convince them that they wouldn't have this attitude with us if we simply try to use diplomacy and trade instead of threatening them with violence. do you get it now?[/QUOTE] yeah however it appears ridiculous to others because of it's absolute stance on foreign opinion to US bases. Just because GOP voters think like that doesn't mean we all think like that. Plus educating them a little more by being specific and not absolute, introducing a little grey into their black and white world never hurts. [QUOTE=GoodStuff;34382723]Well you're reasoning is extremely flawed. For example: No shit, the video (IIRC, September 2011) was and speech (2009) were made before Obama announced withdrawal from Iraq.[/QUOTE] as I established above, I don't have an issue with the original speech, I have an issue with those re-releasing it.
While the video does give a good point perspective-wise, it's dumb in making the accusation that Obama just flat out lied and completely went back on his promises. Yes, the deadline to get out of Iraq was Bush's, but remember that pretty much the entire Republican party was against pulling out [I]ever[/I] in the '08 election. If anyone else had been elected, we would still be there. We've begun our withdrawal from Afghanistan as of late last year and will be all the way out by 2014. Did Obama snap his fingers when he took office and teleport all of our thousands of troops and heavy equipment out of both countries? No. But are his policies leading us out? Yes. And while most Republicans aren't really campaigning for staying in either country, they're rip roaring to start a new one on the same scale in Iran, and I sincerely doubt that Obama is in any rush to invade them.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382713]never said we didn't. It is about the war on terror. That does not mean that it can generalize about US troops on foreign soil and US presence in overseas bases. no, I'm just against generalizations in political ads for fuck's sake. That's what this entire fucking topic is about, pointing out how this ad is propaganda with it's generalizations. again, if you're point is so solid, why are you attacking me? why are you getting hot headed?[/QUOTE] i'm getting hotheaded because you're acting like a complete moron and pretending this video has any intent to generalize anything other than our current foreign policy which involves playing world police and invading the middle east. you say that you understand that this video is about the war on terror yet you keep acting as though it's really a generalization of how evil EVERYTHING WE'VE EVER DONE is, when in reality [B]it's just a video about the war on terror[/B]. they aren't referencing WWII, they aren't referencing the Korean War, they aren't complaining about military bases that are welcomed and accepted around the world. they're referencing the fact that america has become the earth's policeman despite pleas and complaints from everyone else, they're referencing the fact that we've destroyed the middle east in a 10~ year conflict founded on lies, misconceptions and political egos, they're referencing the fact that we should consider the impact our invasion is having on the citizens of the countries we invade, and asking that we put ourselves in their shoes and imagine if the tables were turned, and our enemies were doing to us what we are doing to them. so no matter how much you claim to understand the situation and no matter how much you try and say there's an unacceptable generalization in this video, it's clear to anyone with a modicum of intelligence and reasoning that you're just coming up with feeble, stupid reasons that you think this UNOFFICIAL video from a MONTH AGO is somehow an evil abuse of fear tactics and demagogy when in reality it's just a fucking ron paul campaign ad that happens to raise a good point about america's foreign policy.
[QUOTE=Spooter;34382752]While the video does give a good point perspective-wise, [b]it's dumb in making the accusation that Obama just flat out lied and completely went back on his promises.[/b] [/QUOTE] thank you.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382729]yeah however it appears ridiculous to others because of it's absolute stance on foreign opinion to US bases. Just because [B]GOP voters[/B] think like that doesn't mean we all think like that. Plus educating them a little more by being specific and not absolute, introducing a little grey into their black and white world never hurts.[/QUOTE] his is directed toward gop votes, notice that this video was made during ron paul's attempt for primary!!! as well, im pretty sure foreign military bases in the middle east is not well received, we're not getting thousand praises, but we are receiving protests and increasing number of insurgents due to the fact we shouldn't be meddling in their country
no no, you know all those attacks on our embassies and all the people killed for working in those embassies? that was just them saying thank you for a job well done
[QUOTE=Kopimi;34382772]i'm getting hotheaded because you're acting like a complete moron and pretending this video has any intent to generalize anything other than our current foreign policy which involves playing world police and invading the middle east. you say that you understand that this video is about the war on terror yet you keep acting as though it's really a generalization of how evil EVERYTHING WE'VE EVER DONE is, when in reality [B]it's just a video about the war on terror[/B]. they aren't referencing WWII, they aren't referencing the Korean War, they aren't complaining about military bases that are welcomed and accepted around the world. they're referencing the fact that america has become the earth's policeman despite pleas and complaints from everyone else, they're referencing the fact that we've destroyed the middle east in a 10~ year conflict founded on lies, misconceptions and political egos, they're referencing the fact that we should consider the impact our invasion is having on the citizens of the countries we invade, and asking that we put ourselves in their shoes and imagine if the tables were turned, and our enemies were doing to us what we are doing to them. so no matter how much you claim to understand the situation and no matter how much you try and say there's an unacceptable generalization in this video, it's clear to anyone with a modicum of intelligence and reasoning that you're just coming up with feeble, stupid reasons that you think this UNOFFICIAL video from a MONTH AGO is somehow an evil abuse of fear tactics and demagogy when in reality it's just a fucking ron paul campaign ad that happens to raise a good point about america's foreign policy.[/QUOTE] whether it has the intent to is irrelevant, the facts are that it does, and it miffs the more informed out of us.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382489]late as shit? sir this video is 1 month old. While others of the same speech have been posted, they all pale in comparison to this one in exposing how ridiculous his generalizations are.[/QUOTE] No, it's more than a month old. Here's the original video (uploaded months ago by a Ron Paul SuperPAC right before Obama made his announcement to withdraw troops from Iraq): [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKfuS6gfxPY[/url] [QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382729] as I established above, I don't have an issue with the original speech, I have an issue with those re-releasing it.[/QUOTE] Well, it's not really Ron Paul's fault is it? Some random dude re-uploaded an old video to which you linked to. What's the hell is wrong with that? If you had a problem and wanna go UMG or Warner Bros on the guys ass, send a message to the guy who uploaded it. Why did you start a thread for this? This isn't news, it isn't new and it isn't sensationalist as others have pointed out already.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;34382801]his is directed toward gop votes, notice that this video was made during ron paul's attempt for primary!!! as well, im pretty sure foreign military bases[b] in the middle east[/b] is not well received, we're not getting thousand praises, but we are receiving protests and increasing number of insurgents due to the fact we shouldn't be meddling in their country[/QUOTE] well of course
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382831]whether it has the intent to is irrelevant, the facts are that it does, and it miffs the more informed out of us.[/QUOTE] what are you even talking about you're complaining about the fact that you are interpreting this video in a way that it was clearly not meant to be interpreted you're literally just coming up with shit you think it's saying when in reality it's pretty clear none of that is being said do you watch pepsi commercials and think "wow they want me to blow up the pentagon how deplorable!!"? no, probably not, and why is that? because the commercial [B]didn't say any of that[/B]
[QUOTE=Spooter;34382752]While the video does give a good point perspective-wise, it's dumb in making the accusation that Obama just flat out lied and completely went back on his promises. Yes, the deadline to get out of Iraq was Bush's, but remember that pretty much the entire Republican party was against pulling out [I]ever[/I] in the '08 election. If anyone else had been elected, we would still be there. We've begun our withdrawal from Afghanistan as of late last year and will be all the way out by 2014. Did Obama snap his fingers when he took office and teleport all of our thousands of troops and heavy equipment out of both countries? No. But are his policies leading us out? Yes. And while most Republicans aren't really campaigning for staying in either country, they're rip roaring to start a new one on the same scale in Iran, and I sincerely doubt that Obama is in any rush to invade them.[/QUOTE] what in the living fuck, obama is not even referenced in that video, [B]this video is directed toward GOP voters[/B] let me repeat [B]this video is directed toward GOP voters[/B] who wants occupation of middle eastern or 'unamerican' countries to stay, this video speaks the truth a) we bombed and killed people in countries we occupied in the middle east b) they respond to us bombing and killing them with attacks, hence this video is trying to say we're not paragons of peace and justice, they're doing what they think is defending their country, same thing we would do if WE were occupied c) majority of americans want them back home d) ron paul wants to bring all troops home e) ron paul says this'll cost less than waging war and diplomacy & trade will trump over bloodshed oh yeah, did u know ron paul was running on anti-war platform.
[QUOTE=GoodStuff;34382835]No, here's the original video (uploaded months ago by a Ron Paul SuperPAC right before Obama made his announcement to withdraw troops from Iraq): [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKfuS6gfxPY[/url] Well, it's not really Ron Paul's fault is it? Some random dude re-uploaded an old video to which you linked to. What's the hell is wrong with that? If you had a problem and wanna go UMG or Warner Bros on the guys ass, send a message to the guy who uploaded it. Why did you start a thread for this? This isn't news, it isn't new and it isn't sensationalist as others have pointed out already.[/QUOTE] right right, I should have made the title "how propaganda works" and posted it in Mass Debate. God, you need to read my earlier posts. #1: makes a good, valid point #2: uses it to promote a point of view that is debatable bonus points for making sweeping generalizations. [QUOTE=lolwutdude;34382859]what in the living fuck, [b]obama is not even referenced in that video[/b], [B]this video is directed toward GOP voters[/B] [/QUOTE] wrong. [QUOTE=Kopimi;34382851]what are you even talking about you're complaining about the fact that you are interpreting this video in a way that it was clearly not meant to be interpreted you're literally just coming up with shit you think it's saying when in reality it's pretty clear none of that is being said do you watch pepsi commercials and think "wow they want me to blow up the pentagon how deplorable!!"? no, probably not, and why is that? because the commercial [B]didn't say any of that[/B][/QUOTE] "the reality is that our military presence [b]on foreign soil[/b] is as offensive to the people that live there as armed chinese troops would be if they were stationed in Texas" okay, maybe I'm more broad minded and critical, maybe I just don't know when to draw the lines and accept the scope of the video as is, and it's [b]just me[/b] that sees this as referring to all US troops outside of the US. If so, and it's just me or a vast minority that views this that way, then your point is completely valid.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;34382859]what in the living fuck, obama is not even referenced in that video, [B]this video is directed toward GOP voters[/B] let me repeat [B]this video is directed toward GOP voters[/B] who wants occupation of middle eastern or 'unamerican' countries to stay, this video speaks the truth a) we bombed and killed people in countries we occupied in the middle east b) they respond to us bombing and killing them with attacks, hence this video is trying to say we're not paragons of peace and justice, they're doing what they think is defending their country, same thing we would do if WE were occupied c) majority of americans want them back home d) ron paul wants to bring all troops home e) ron paul says this'll cost less than waging war and diplomacy & trade will trump over bloodshed oh yeah, did u know ron paul was running on anti-war platform.[/QUOTE] Yeah. I do know that. But it does make a blatant jab at Obama. Watch it again. At the part where it states that "what if that leader changed his mind once he took office" the O in office is the Obama campaign logo O from '08. So yeah, it does reference Obama. It deliberately references him to imply that he "changed his mind" and has broke the promises he made. Which, as I stated, isn't true. The video and Ron Paul actually make decent points on foreign policy. While I'm not against overseas intervention, I am against overseas occupation beyond the scope of the bases we have in Germany or Japan.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382869]right right, I should have made the title "how propaganda works" and posted it in Mass Debate. God, you need to read my earlier posts. #1: makes a good, valid point #2: uses it to promote a point of view that is debatable bonus points for making sweeping generalizations. [/QUOTE] everything is propaganda, me telling you to eat healthy is propaganda, but it's when you insinuate ron paul was twisting words or he's using demagoguery is pretty damn stupid accusation you're taking what the video is supposed to mean, and then turning it around what you want to mean so you can justify making this thread and justify keep defending your stance let me repeat, repeat [quote] let me repeat this video is directed toward GOP voters who wants occupation of middle eastern or 'unamerican' countries to stay, this video speaks the truth a) we bombed and killed people in countries we occupied in the middle east b) they respond to us bombing and killing them with attacks, hence this video is trying to say we're not paragons of peace and justice, they're doing what they think is defending their country, same thing we would do if WE were occupied c) majority of americans want them back home d) ron paul wants to bring all troops home e) ron paul says this'll cost less than waging war and diplomacy & trade will trump over bloodshed oh yeah, did u know ron paul was running on anti-war platform.[/quote]
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382869]right right, I should have made the title "how propaganda works" and posted it in Mass Debate. God, you need to read my earlier posts. [/QUOTE] Dude did you not read my post? I essentially destroyed the whole "timing argument" you are using. The original video, not the re-uploaded one you linked to, was [B]released months ago[/B]. Not 1 month as you said and no where in your previous posts did you acknowledge your mistake: [video=youtube;XKfuS6gfxPY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKfuS6gfxPY[/video] I don't know how many times I have to keep re-iterating this, but this is old stuff and was released before Obama announced withdraw from Iraq. [QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382869] wrong.[/QUOTE] It was. Specifically the Iowa GOP voters, back in October when the original video was released. How do we know? The SuperPAC who released this video said so themselves and where asking for donations to air this ad over there.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34382869]right right, I should have made the title "how propaganda works" and posted it in Mass Debate. God, you need to read my earlier posts. #1: makes a good, valid point #2: uses it to promote a point of view that is debatable bonus points for making sweeping generalizations. wrong. "the reality is that our military presence [b]on foreign soil[/b] is as offensive to the people that live there as armed chinese troops would be if they were stationed in Texas" okay, maybe I'm more broad minded and critical, [B]maybe I just don't know when to draw the lines and accept the scope of the video as is,[/B] and it's [b]just me[/b] that sees this as referring to all US troops outside of the US. If so, and it's just me or a vast minority that views this that way, then your point is completely valid.[/QUOTE] maybe you just don't know how to comprehend simple points and subjects without trying desperately to misinterpret an extremely simple concept so you can become further entrenched in your own opinion be sure to keep me up to date on all the other hidden messages you find in blatantly obvious messages seriously holy fuck is "foreign soil" the smoking gun in your argument?? they didn't specifically say iraq and afghanistan so apparently the logical conclusion is thinking that they meant EVERY NATION WE'VE EVER STEPPED FOOT ON seriously just stop
[QUOTE=Kopimi;34383018]maybe you just don't know how to comprehend simple points and subjects without trying desperately to misinterpret an extremely simple concept so you can become further entrenched in your own opinion be sure to keep me up to date on all the other hidden messages you find in blatantly obvious messages[/QUOTE] I never was desperately trying to misinterpret that. The fact that he said those 2 things naturally stood out to me when I first watched the video. [QUOTE=Kopimi;34383018] seriously holy fuck is "foreign soil" the smoking gun in your argument?? they didn't specifically say iraq and afghanistan so apparently the logical conclusion is thinking that they meant EVERY NATION we currently have bases in. seriously just stop[/QUOTE] yeah, pretty much. "Foreign soil" tends to be pretty umbrella term for any soil outside the US or whatever country you live in, y'know. It doesn't automatically mean Iraq/Afghanistan even when the context of the video suggest otherwise, to me at least. [editline]24th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=GoodStuff;34382978]Dude did you not read my post? I essentially destroyed the whole "timing argument" you are using. The original video, not the re-uploaded one you linked to, was [B]released months ago[/B]. Not 1 month as you said and no where in your previous posts did you acknowledge your mistake: [video=youtube;XKfuS6gfxPY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKfuS6gfxPY[/video] I don't know how many times I have to keep re-iterating this, but this is old stuff and was released before Obama announced withdraw from Iraq..[/QUOTE] correct on the timing there, admitted [QUOTE=GoodStuff;34382978] It was. Specifically the Iowa GOP voters, back in October when the original video was released. How do we know? The SuperPAC who released this video said so themselves and where asking for donations to air this ad over there.[/QUOTE] was referring to the obama point, the bolding of the GOP voters part carried over from the previous post.
who ever said US was non-essential to the allied victory of WW2 is forgetting about the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease"]Lend-Lease[/URL] act that supplied britain with a lot of weapons and equiptment
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