• Quebec beekeeper accused of Nazi war crimes
    316 replies, posted
But what if nuking japan would've pissed off soviets and they started nuking whole europe? Just another what if :v:
So why can't that logic apply to the other nations' war crimes, exactly?
[QUOTE=Lankist;35745555]So why can't that logic apply to the other nations' war crimes, exactly?[/QUOTE] Rounding up and murdering millions of people by the Nazis had no logical or rational reasoning other than racial or nationalistic hatred. The bombing of Japan was done for a logical and rational strategic reason, not out of hatred or some racial ideology. [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=s0m3_guy;35745245]did you ever consider if the soviets had a nuke? they could have saved so many of their own men but in turn would have killed many who didnt even believe the same fucking cause do you know what the final statistics were when the soviets went at the nazis?[/QUOTE] Im not sure what you are arguing because you seem to be proving the same point carcarcargo is trying to make.
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;35745613]Rounding up and murdering millions of people by the Nazis had no logical or rational reasoning other than racial or nationalistic hatred. The bombing of Japan was done for a logical and rational strategic reason, not out of hatred or some racial ideology. [/QUOTE] We're talking about Japan, not Germany. Japan captured and tortured/experimented on enemy combatants to develop bioweapons under the exact same rationale: that they would save Japanese lives and limit casualties. What makes that so different? [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] Oh, and you want to talk about racial hatred, how about the Japanese internment camps in the US, hmm? In which anyone who looked vaguely asian was locked up.
Ladies, can we stop the cat fight now? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Why reply?" - Starpluck))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=flamehead5;35745825]Ladies, can we stop the cat fight now?[/QUOTE] It's called a discussion. [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] its sort of what happens in discussion threads [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] you should try it some time
[QUOTE=Lankist;35745725]We're talking about Japan, not Germany. Japan captured and tortured/experimented on enemy combatants to develop bioweapons under the exact same rationale: that they would save Japanese lives and limit casualties. What makes that so different? [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] Oh, and you want to talk about racial hatred, how about the Japanese internment camps in the US, hmm? In which anyone who looked vaguely asian was locked up.[/QUOTE] I know we are talking about Japan, but in the comment I was responding too you asked "why can't that logic apply to the other nations". If you do not want me to involve other nations do not ask questions that involve them. That is a good point in regards to Japanese human experimentation but there is a difference between sadistic human experiments that demonstrated a disregard for human life in favor of more sound medical experiments that could have been achieved using other means and a strategic bombing that was done as a last resort in the face of invasion. [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] And interment camps where very unfortunate and not at all a rational thing to do.
The "other nation" is Japan. We didn't nuke Berlin, even though that would have saved a hell of a lot more lives. We didn't nuke Italy or Egypt or any of the other theaters. We nuked the ones that bombed our harbors, and only them. Let's not pretend it was a rational decision.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;35744850]that's the first time i've ever used it i think. and yeah lol, starpluck what a card he is[/QUOTE] Watch out, youre next.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35745844]It's called a discussion. [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] its sort of what happens in discussion threads [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] you should try it some time[/QUOTE] Its a page long argument that is going nowhere.
[QUOTE=flamehead5;35745994]Its a page long argument that is going nowhere.[/QUOTE] Sorry we'll get back to sucking each other's dicks and talking about how great it is circle-jerking it. You know because god forbid people talk about things from varying perspectives in order to reach a consensus. fuck THAT noise because flamehead5 doesn't feel like reading a thread with words in it.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35745982]The "other nation" is Japan. We didn't nuke Berlin, even though that would have saved a hell of a lot more lives. We didn't nuke Italy or Egypt or any of the other theaters. We nuked the ones that bombed our harbors, and only them. Let's not pretend it was a rational decision.[/QUOTE] We didn't nuke European nations because there was no need to by the times we developed the technology to do so. [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=flamehead5;35745994]Its a page long argument that is going nowhere.[/QUOTE] All arguments on here go nowhere. Its an internet forum where people discuss things. What do you want?
[QUOTE=The golden;35745854] [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] This is actually a pretty calm debate. You clearly haven't seen the more fiery shitstorms that can kick up sometimes.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately I have, peh I feel hypocritical posting this anyway seeing how I'm not really taking the conversation anywhere myself...
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;35746012]We didn't nuke European nations because there was no need to by the times we developed the technology to do so. [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] All arguments on here go nowhere. Its an internet forum where people discuss things. What do you want?[/QUOTE] Hold on that was rhetorical are you saying we should have nuked the other theaters if we'd finished the bomb by then? (the bomb that could have ignited the atmosphere by the by)
[QUOTE=Lankist;35746007]Sorry we'll get back to sucking each other's dicks and talking about how great it is circle-jerking it. You know because god forbid people talk about things from varying perspectives in order to reach a consensus. fuck THAT noise because flamehead5 doesn't feel like reading a thread with words in it.[/QUOTE] You know my name is Flamehead, and the irony of me being more calm then you is unfortunate. Sorry for stating my point casually and calmly.
[QUOTE=flamehead5;35746041]You know my name is Flamehead, and the irony of me being more calm then you is unfortunate. Sorry for stating my point casually and calmly.[/QUOTE] And again you're confusing rhetoric with anger. I'm using the word fuck a lot talking to Mr. Bluth, because they are easy words of emphasis. I'm not insulting him, and he clearly doesn't feel insulted. I don't see what your deal is, bro, aside from trying to feel superior.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35746034]Hold on that was rhetorical are you saying we should have nuked the other theaters if we'd finished the bomb by then? (the bomb that could have ignited the atmosphere by the by)[/QUOTE] It is something to think about. Not that I'm advocating the hypothetical nuking all Axis countrys but perhaps a well placed one would have ended the war much sooner. [QUOTE=Lankist;35745982]The "other nation" is Japan. [/QUOTE] Just as a cheap shot you said "nations", as implying more than one country.
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;35746126]It is something to think about. Not that I'm advocating the hypothetical nuking all Axis countrys but perhaps a well placed one would have ended the war much sooner.[/QUOTE] Probably not. Between Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Soviets defeated the Japanese forces in Manchuria like it was nothing. I think you're overestimating the threat and underestimating the impact of nuclear weaponry.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35746139]Probably not. Between Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Soviets defeated the Japanese forces in Manchuria like it was nothing. I think you're overestimating the threat and underestimating the impact of nuclear weaponry.[/QUOTE] I don't think the liberation of Manchuria can be compared to the invasion of Japan itself. Specifically in regards to potential sources of defense such as a large civilian population that could potentially act as cannon fodder for the Empire. Hell the main Japanese forces where already being used as such in irrational suicidal plans.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35737544]apart from the fact that they wiped two civilian cities completely off the map, killing more people in an instant than all the torture japan committed against combatants combined? [editline]27th April 2012[/editline] terrifying fact: initially, Truman was going to bomb the capital (and, you know, the emperor), but a rainstorm was approaching, so on the spur of the moment he decided to bomb a civilian target instead. The bombing of civilian cities was not planned. It was circumstance. A last-minute decision while the bomb was in-flight that wiped thousands of innocent civilians off the face of this Earth. Because Truman didn't want a few Americans to turn on the windshield wipers, he killed thousands of innocent foreign nationals. Don't pretend that isn't monstrous.[/QUOTE] This post has so many errors I don't even know where to fucking begin. The Japanese tortured and murdered more people (between 3 million and 10 million; we'll probably never know the precise figures; [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Mass_killings[/url]) than the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed (~246,000). The Red Cross documented in the Nanking Massacre alone, which was committed against the Chinese, more than 300,000 people were slaughtered and 20,000 women were raped. And the death toll may have even been as high as 500,000, if Ambassador Hiroshi Oshima's intercepted boastful remarks to Heinrich Himmler in December 1938 are to be believed. [url]http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/[/url] Another 580,000 people were killed by the Kwantung Army's human experimentation units. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731#Description[/url] As far as the actual atomic bombings are concerned, nobody ever considered using one on Tokyo. Don't know where you heard that, but it's wrong. Tokyo, while it had a lot of symbolic value, had no real strategic value. Four cities were initially nominated by the April Committee: Kokuru (which housed one of Japan's largest munitions plants), Hiroshima, Niigata (an important industrial center/port city which also had an oil refinery), and Kyoto (another important industrial center). [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Choice_of_targets[/url] Hiroshima was a strategically vital military and industrial center for the Japanese. The entire defense grid for the southern half of the country was coordinated there by the Second General Army under the command of Field Marshal Shunroku Hata. We had hoped by destroying the city completely that it would convince the Japanese to submit to an unconditional surrender; or, if not that, then make invading them by sea under Operation Downfall easier (conquering Japan via Downfall was expected to cost us anywhere between 1.7 and 4 million casualties;[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall#Estimated_casualties[/url]). That's why it was selected. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Hiroshima[/url] Nagasaki was selected in place of Kyoto because it was determined to be more important to the Japanese (it was, like Kyoto an industrial center, but it produced way more armaments and equipment for their military, especially their navy, and had one of the largest ports in the entire country). [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Nagasaki[/url] These were not defenseless, innocent "civilian cities" as you craftily chose to portray them. By the way, immediately after we bombed Hiroshima, we warned their government we would attack them again if they did not surrender. They did not, of course. So that's what led to us deciding to go ahead and attack Nagasaki. Even after we'd bombed them [i]twice[/i] and most of the Japanese government, including the emperor himself, had agreed that they needed to surrender, there were [i]still[/i] a ton of dissenters who wanted to [i]continue[/i] the war. In fact, the Staff Office, Ministry of War, and most of the Imperial Guardsmen attempted to coup the government and put the emperor under house arrest so they could keep fighting. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_Incident[/url] I [b]just[/b] explained all this to Isuzu [i]three[/i] days ago in the thread about Iran's nuclear program... how many times do we need to go over this, guys?
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;35744754]hmmmm, lets see, germany was beaten, japan had lost its fleet and the majority of it's pacific holdings with the forces of the allies ready to stomp their asses, and you think the war was gonna continue on for years and millions would die? on an assumption that it could go for longer? hmm i'm not sure that i agree with the nostradamus school of military tactics. haha[/QUOTE] Japanese civilians thought the US was completely evil and prepared to murder all of them once the Japanese mainland was taken. The US would not only have to fight the Japanese military but also all of their people. Also, do you fucking know how hard it is to make a coastal landing? You can not just smash ships into any part of the map you want mister general.
oh hey look wikipedia links everywhere
[QUOTE=Lankist;35747987]oh hey look wikipedia links everywhere[/QUOTE] Are you such a lazy prick that you can not go and look at the sources wikipedia gives.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35745050]uhm no they both were not pre-planned Truman expected them to surrender after the first bomb, but the Japanese government tried to call a bluff and say that the U.S. had only created one, so Truman dropped the second one several days later. [/QUOTE] Wow, we should have challenged the Japanese to a game of poker, and the war would have been over before it started.
[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;35748636]Are you such a lazy prick that you can not go and look at the sources wikipedia gives.[/QUOTE] Apparently, yes, he is.
[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;35748636]Are you such a lazy prick that you can not go and look at the sources wikipedia gives.[/QUOTE] are you such a lazy prick that you won't verify it yourself before posting it? It isn't my fucking job to do your research for you.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35748960]are you such a lazy prick that you won't verify it yourself before posting it? It isn't my fucking job to do your research for you.[/QUOTE] The research is already done, all you have to do is click two fucking links to see all of it.
[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;35749083]The research is already done, all you have to do is click two fucking links to see all of it.[/QUOTE] Then you can go ahead and post excerpts from those instead, and not a conveniently worded aggregate. [editline]28th April 2012[/editline] There is a reason why Wikipedia is not a respectable source. That reason is because you didn't read Wikipedia's sources. You read what someone else thought of them. You didn't verify the information, you assumed it was valid. That is no proof. That is laziness on your part, not mine.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35745287]oh hey its the blame the victim attitude back in style[/QUOTE] Japan attacked America first, they're hardly the victim.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;35749653]Japan attacked America first, they're hardly the victim.[/QUOTE] so if somebody punches you in the face you think it's a cool idea to go to their house and murder their family
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