Justice Dept. to Take On Affirmative Action in College Admissions - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52530941]There's a great short story you should read called "Harrison Bergeron".[/QUOTE] Bergeron is equality of outcome, this is equality of opportunity*. *One singular point in the system biasing back a bit doesn't really count as equality of opportunity but that's the best we have apparently.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52530915]AA is intended to be discriminatory - it attempts to rectify societal discrimination by discriminating in the opposite direction. Society gives minorities less opportunity, so in order to fix this, adjust against society by providing greater access to opportunity. It's racist, yes, but it's racist in a way intended to actually even the playing field. In places that have banned AA (like California), [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/06/24/us/affirmative-action-bans.html"]minority enrollment lowered significantly[/URL], disproportional to population percentage. California still has that issue with the stereotype of disproportionate numbers of asian students. I think it's important to notice the difference between hateful discrimination (I hate X people) and this type of discrimination. AA is discriminatory, but not because the government hates white people, and instead because they want to even the odds for all other people.[/QUOTE] There shouldn't be any institutional discrimination in the first place though, and it doesn't really do anything to address the root causes as other people have already pointed out. All it's really accomplished is helping to further divide people with a different brand of racism.

[QUOTE=01271;52533128]Bergeron is equality of outcome, this is equality of opportunity*. *One singular point in the system biasing back a bit doesn't really count as equality of opportunity but that's the best we have apparently.[/QUOTE] This is assuming it compensates the bias accurately thought, AA may very well overprivilege those it props up considering those who get helped by it are already privileged compared to the rest of their respective demographics.

[QUOTE=halofreak472;52532716]I didn't make any mention of specific races in my post. It's a problem both if they reject black or white people based on solely their race. The point is more that if a university wants a body of high achieving students, then if racism leads to them denying good students and accepting bad students, then that's their own problem to sort out because they're diverging from their own mission statement. Institutions will do whatever makes them money, and racial discrimination generally isn't profitable and naturally punishes people who practice it. If a university is interested in racism then its priorities are simply not in producing profitable students.[/QUOTE] AA doesn't punish the universities, it punishes students. Thats why AA is so terrible. A straight A's 4.0 GPA student would be denied from Harvard and denied scholarships because a student with worse grades, but whose black, is prioritized. Worse yet, that black student has access to scholarships that are exclusive to his race. Furthermore, universities for the most part are not for-profit anyways, so theyre not concerned about making money as long as they stay out of the red. AA already affects universities on an academic level but they clearly don't care since it makes their student body more diverse and keeps the SJW portion of the student body off their backs. Aside from potential bad PR for having a poorly diversed student body, theres no advantage for a university to impliment AA. [editline]2nd August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=01271;52533128]Bergeron is equality of outcome, this is equality of opportunity*. *One singular point in the system biasing back a bit doesn't really count as equality of opportunity but that's the best we have apparently.[/QUOTE] Its really the same difference. Equalizing opportunities and outcomes through forceful measures like AA, or for Harrison hundreds of pounds of weights, is a blatant injustice. If minorities are doing poorly in school, dont stunt the better performing races. Focus on why those minority groups are doing poorly and fix it.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52533743]If minorities are doing poorly in school, dont stunt the better performing races.[/QUOTE] I mean, apologies for a bit of derailing, but you might want to rethink your wording there.

[QUOTE=AlbertWesker;52533501]There shouldn't be any institutional discrimination in the first place though, and it doesn't really do anything to address the root causes as other people have already pointed out. All it's really accomplished is helping to further divide people with a different brand of racism.[/QUOTE] I agree with you, I was just trying to point out how the intent of affirmative action is discriminatory in a very different way than what people usually think of with "racism." The intent is genuinely good, but there are better ways for institutions to address both institutional racism and societal racism.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52533828]I agree with you, I was just trying to point out how the intent of affirmative action is discriminatory in a very different way than what people usually think of with "racism." The intent is genuinely good, but there are better ways for institutions to address both institutional racism and societal racism.[/QUOTE] "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". Of course AA is meant to be a good thing, but that doesn't mean its a benefit to have or that its not blatantly racist. It doesn't matter if the people who came up with the idea of AA thought they were doing good. They still created a system that takes revenge on students because they did better academically and aren't a minority.

AA is a bandage to an infected cut that needs antibiotics; but atleast a bandage can make the wound hurt less, even if you're still going to die at the same pace regardless. To me, that's basically what AA is, it's a jury-rigged, unnecessary fix for a very major problem that nobody has bothered to implement the solution to yet. But IMO, it's better than nothing at all. Atleast, sometimes; more in the jobs field than anything else. There's been quite a few studies where they sent out the same exact job application except they change the name to a black name and it was denied a bit more often. I don't really know how to fix that without AA in that particular context, but that's even trickier to implement than in academia.

[QUOTE=kharkovus;52534183]AA is a bandage to an infected cut that needs antibiotics; but atleast a bandage can make the wound hurt less, even if you're still going to die at the same pace regardless. To me, that's basically what AA is, it's a jury-rigged, unnecessary fix for a very major problem that nobody has bothered to implement the solution to yet. But IMO, it's better than nothing at all. Atleast, sometimes; more in the jobs field than anything else. I think there was a study where they sent out the same exact job application except they changed the name and address to a black dude's name from the inner city and it was denied much mroe often. I don't really know how to fix that without AA in that particular context.[/QUOTE] AA is more like having your right hand cut off to make it fair for people who dont have right hands. Apologies for using a terrible infographic, [img]http://culturalorganizing.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/originalequityvsequality.jpg[/img] Instead of making the fence chain link so everyone has the ability to see the game, policies like AA would take away everyone's boxes and give them to the short child since he wasnt privileged. It is not a bandaid, it is not a solution. It aids one group by taking away from another. Its discrimination.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52534240]AA is more like having your right hand cut off to make it fair for people who dont have right hands. Apologies for using a terrible infographic, [img]http://culturalorganizing.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/originalequityvsequality.jpg[/img] Instead of making the fence chain link so everyone has the ability to see the game, policies like AA would take away everyone's boxes and give them to the short child since he wasnt privileged. It is not a bandaid, it is not a solution. It aids one group by taking away from another. Its discrimination.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but what the hell else are you going to do? Just have colleges filled with rich, quality-educated white people and a persistent lack of social mobility where the blacks stay in poverty even more? I'd rather have forced equality on that front than an even more racially dichotomized outcome scheme.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52533743]A straight A's 4.0 GPA student would be denied from Harvard and denied scholarships because a student with worse grades, but whose black, is prioritized. [/QUOTE] Does this actually happen though. [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52533743]Worse yet, that black student has access to scholarships that are exclusive to his race. [/QUOTE] Yeah this is never going to change.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52530915]It's racist, yes, but it's racist in a way intended to actually even the playing field.[/QUOTE] doesn't this seem kinda unethical i don't know if its due to cultural differences but the way you so blatantly laid it out here makes it sound like you're just being an apologist for racism going by what you literally said

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52534240]AA is more like having your right hand cut off to make it fair for people who dont have right hands. Apologies for using a terrible infographic, [img]http://culturalorganizing.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/originalequityvsequality.jpg[/img] Instead of making the fence chain link so everyone has the ability to see the game, policies like AA would take away everyone's boxes and give them to the short child since he wasnt privileged. It is not a bandaid, it is not a solution. It aids one group by taking away from another. Its discrimination.[/QUOTE] That comic is really obviously in support of stuff like AA. Instead of being fair and equal and giving everyone the same footing, you give greater advantages to those who have less opportunity. AA is a flawed system, but that comic demonstrates it's intent perfectly - take away a box from the guy who can see and give it to the one who can't. It's discriminatory, based on height, but it helps everyone gain equal footing in the end run. There are better solutions than AA. California and Texas both have requirements that the top 10% of all high school graduating classes get automatic admission to the state university system. This is more merit-based, but it can still exacerbate issues. If a high school is full of teachers who subconsciously give a black student worse grades based on arbitrary metrics, you now have a black student equally capable bumped out of the top 10% due to social and institutional racism. He's not any worse, he's just as good, but now his opportunities are hampered because of subtle racism and given to an undeserving white student. That's just one example, but that's what AA attempts to solve. Removing it wholesale is a bad idea, as I posted earlier - admission rates for minorities (other than Asians) decrease significantly in states that have banned AA policies. It's supposed to help across multiple areas by giving disadvantaged students the ability to pursue an education, which in turn gives them a greater average income and the livelihood to send their kids to children without a handicap. There's merit to the system, as it counteracts racism that can't be accounted for (childhood favoritism, etc) and gives greater opportunity. But it's an old system, and there are potentially better solutions, and the idea that it'll make minority groups wealthier has died out since it's so fucking expensive now.

[QUOTE=kharkovus;52534304]Yeah, but what the hell else are you going to do? Just have colleges filled with rich, quality-educated white people and a persistent lack of social mobility where the blacks stay in poverty even more? I'd rather have forced equality on that front than an even more racially dichotomized outcome scheme.[/QUOTE] As I have stated 27 times before in this thread, focus on whats making minority groups perform academically. Find out why the kids arent taking an interest in schooling and do something to fix it. [editline]3rd August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Raidyr;52534317]Does this actually happen though. Yeah this is never going to change.[/QUOTE] Yes I know. [editline]3rd August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=.Isak.;52534600]That comic is really obviously in support of stuff like AA. Instead of being fair and equal and giving everyone the same footing, you give greater advantages to those who have less opportunity. AA is a flawed system, but that comic demonstrates it's intent perfectly - take away a box from the guy who can see and give it to the one who can't. It's discriminatory, based on height, but it helps everyone gain equal footing in the end run. There are better solutions than AA. California and Texas both have requirements that the top 10% of all high school graduating classes get automatic admission to the state university system. This is more merit-based, but it can still exacerbate issues. If a high school is full of teachers who subconsciously give a black student worse grades based on arbitrary metrics, you now have a black student equally capable bumped out of the top 10% due to social and institutional racism. He's not any worse, he's just as good, but now his opportunities are hampered because of subtle racism and given to an undeserving white student. That's just one example, but that's what AA attempts to solve. Removing it wholesale is a bad idea, as I posted earlier - admission rates for minorities (other than Asians) decrease significantly in states that have banned AA policies. It's supposed to help across multiple areas by giving disadvantaged students the ability to pursue an education, which in turn gives them a greater average income and the livelihood to send their kids to children without a handicap. There's merit to the system, as it counteracts racism that can't be accounted for (childhood favoritism, etc) and gives greater opportunity. But it's an old system, and there are potentially better solutions, and the idea that it'll make minority groups wealthier has died out since it's so fucking expensive now.[/QUOTE] Theres a long lost panel to that comic where none of the kids have boxes because they dont need them, because the fence is chainlink and everyone can see through it. Forcefull equalizing measures arent necessary anymore when the issue of inequality is fixed, which is what needs to be done in the case with AA.

I don't see why people are trying to deflect and make this about how horrible and racist the Trump administration is AA is bullshit and needs to go, I don't care who takes the plate to get it gone. If just the mere concept of the Trump administration having some sort of "victory" is offensive regardless of what that "victory" is, then maybe someone else should have taken AA on sooner.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52533828]I agree with you, I was just trying to point out how the intent of affirmative action is discriminatory in a very different way than what people usually think of with "racism." The intent is genuinely good, but there are better ways for institutions to address both institutional racism and societal racism.[/QUOTE] But even hardboiled racists think they are doing what they're doing for good? Nobody other than Disney villains and perhaps certain types of sociopaths do bad shit solely to be evil. Again, why does intent matter in the first place? Shouldn't we judge decisions based on the impact they actually have rather than how well-meaning the policy makers were?

affirmative action is a good way to make it look like your doing something good while keeping your supply of cheap prison labor

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52534600]That comic is really obviously in support of stuff like AA. Instead of being fair and equal and giving everyone the same footing, you give greater advantages to those who have less opportunity. AA is a flawed system, but that comic demonstrates it's intent perfectly - take away a box from the guy who can see and give it to the one who can't. It's discriminatory, based on height, but[I] it helps everyone gain equal footing in the end run.[/I][/QUOTE] But it actually doesn't, I explained why earlier. Unless you were talking about the [I]intents[/I] behind the system? Because that doesn't matter much if at all. [QUOTE]There are better solutions than AA. California and Texas both have requirements that the top 10% of all high school graduating classes get automatic admission to the state university system. This is more merit-based, but it can still exacerbate issues. If a high school is full of teachers who subconsciously give a black student worse grades based on arbitrary metrics, you now have a black student equally capable bumped out of the top 10% due to social and institutional racism. He's not any worse, he's just as good, but now his opportunities are hampered because of subtle racism and given to an undeserving white student.[/QUOTE] Demanding higher performances out of Asian students is basically exactly the same thing. Except instead of being isolated to a few teachers, it's hardcoded into the system and applies to every applicant, which is even worse. I still have issues with the system you describe, but at least it compensates more accurately for class and race bias. [QUOTE]That's just one example, but that's what AA attempts to solve. Removing it wholesale is a bad idea, as I posted earlier - admission rates for minorities (other than Asians) decrease significantly in states that have banned AA policies.[/QUOTE] Yes, that is a [I]symptom[/I] of the issue, not the actual [I]problem[/I]. Hiding it doesn't mean it's gone, and does nothing but fuck over people in a greater manner -namely Asians, which you seem to think are acceptable collateral- along with giving "progressives" with no more than two brain cells to rub together the illusion of change and justice. You absolutely should remove it, and I don't see a single reason why not. [QUOTE]It's supposed to help across multiple areas by giving disadvantaged students the ability to pursue an education, which in turn gives them a greater average income and the livelihood to send their kids to children without a handicap.[/QUOTE] ...And pushing down other disadvantaged students who would have had the ability to reach that social status were it not for that bullshit policy. But as long as we get more "balanced" race statistics it's fine to fuck over individuals. American progressivism seems bent on seeing inequalities under the form of groups only, which is ironic considering how individualistic the US society is. The goal is not to make every race - an arbitrary choice of demographic - equal in characteristics, it's to ensure every [I]individual[/I] is treated in a just and fair manner, and has access to decent social mobility. [QUOTE]There's merit to the system[/QUOTE] There isn't. [QUOTE]As it counteracts racism that can't be accounted for (childhood favoritism, etc)[/QUOTE] It doesn't. [QUOTE]And gives greater opportunity.[/QUOTE] It doesn't.

[QUOTE=_Axel;52535065]But it actually doesn't, I explained why earlier. Unless you were talking about the [I]intents[/I] behind the system? Because that doesn't matter much if at all. Demanding higher performances out of Asian students is basically exactly the same thing. Except instead of being isolated to a few teachers, it's hardcoded into the system and applies to every applicant, which is even worse. I still have issues with the system you describe, but at least it compensates more accurately for class and race bias. Yes, that is a [I]symptom[/I] of the issue, not the actual [I]problem[/I]. Hiding it doesn't mean it's gone, and does nothing but fuck over people in a greater manner -namely Asians, which you seem to think are acceptable collateral- along with giving "progressives" with no more than two brain cells to rub together the illusion of change and justice. You absolutely should remove it, and I don't see a single reason why not. ...And pushing down other disadvantaged students who would have had the ability to reach that social status were it not for that bullshit policy. But as long as we get more "balanced" race statistics it's fine to fuck over individuals. American progressivism seems bent on seeing inequalities under the form of groups only, which is ironic considering how individualistic the US society is. The goal is not to make every race - an arbitrary choice of demographic - equal in characteristics, it's to ensure every [I]individual[/I] is treated in a just and fair manner, and has access to decent social mobility. There isn't. It doesn't. It doesn't.[/QUOTE] I agree with you. I've said that in all of my posts - I don't think Affirmative Action is a good solution. I would prefer that it would be unnecessary. I don't like it for the same reason I dislike other forms of discrimination. If we really wanted to fix minority enrollment, we'd end the war on drugs, reduce our imprisonment rate by as much as humanly possible, provide greater benefits to impoverished families so children can focus on their education instead of food or parent's financial stress, and put more effort into federal education standards by keeping a close eye on small schools and prosecuting racial discrimination in local schooling systems. But since this administration is dead set on the "imprison minorities for nonviolent offenses" agenda, with Sessions doubling down on it, throwing out AA isn't a good thing. I want it to be replaced with more comprehensive and fair systems to reduce the racial education gap - Trump sure as fuck won't do that. He'll address discrimination against white people while doubling down on and legitimizing the far, far more severe discrimination against minorities. It's like trying to take care of an apple tree by polishing a single apple over and over while the other half of the tree wilts and dies and the apples rot and fall to the ground. Eliminating AA is something that should be done [I]when other programs are available to continue reducing the gap[/I] - that's not what's happening here.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52535111]I agree with you. I've said that in all of my posts - I don't think Affirmative Action is a good solution. I would prefer that it would be unnecessary. I don't like it for the same reason I dislike other forms of discrimination. If we really wanted to fix minority enrollment, we'd end the war on drugs, reduce our imprisonment rate by as much as humanly possible, provide greater benefits to impoverished families so children can focus on their education instead of food or parent's financial stress, and put more effort into federal education standards by keeping a close eye on small schools and prosecuting racial discrimination in local schooling systems. But since this administration is dead set on the "imprison minorities for nonviolent offenses" agenda, with Sessions doubling down on it, throwing out AA isn't a good thing. I want it to be replaced with more comprehensive and fair systems to reduce the racial education gap - Trump sure as fuck won't do that. He'll address discrimination against white people while doubling down on and legitimizing the far, far more severe discrimination against minorities. It's like trying to take care of an apple tree by polishing a single apple over and over while the other half of the tree wilts and dies and the apples rot and fall to the ground. Eliminating AA is something that should be done [I]when other programs are available to continue reducing the gap[/I] - that's not what's happening here.[/QUOTE] But AA isnt briding any gaps or fixing any issues. All its doing is replacing a good student with a worse one simply because of race. To go with your example, its actually like cutting the branches off all the other apple trees because an individual tree isn't producing as much. I really don't think you get it. AA doesn't do anything to fix a problem, it just hides it while fucking over others. It sucks that some students come from poor upbringings and can't focus enough academically to get enrolled without the help of AA, but why should a better student pay the price for that by having their enrollment denied soley because of their race? You mentioned you want AA to be replaced with a comprehensive and fair system; the way to do this is to enroll students based on their academic merrit and ignore irrelevancies like race and gender. You know, the way it used to be before AA. A black student not getting enrolled in college doesn't mean the college is a racist institution, it means he didn't meet the requirements, so If you want more minorities to take the college route, then address why theyre performing poorly. AA just doesn't make sense. It doesn't fix anything, it forces good students to not get enrolled to mask an bigger issue. AA treats the symptoms of a big problem instead of treating the problem. Its a racist system that causes good students to have their lives stunted by months or years just because theyre not a minority.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52535111]I agree with you. I've said that in all of my posts - I don't think Affirmative Action is a good solution. I would prefer that it would be unnecessary. I don't like it for the same reason I dislike other forms of discrimination. If we really wanted to fix minority enrollment, we'd end the war on drugs, reduce our imprisonment rate by as much as humanly possible, provide greater benefits to impoverished families so children can focus on their education instead of food or parent's financial stress, and put more effort into federal education standards by keeping a close eye on small schools and prosecuting racial discrimination in local schooling systems. But since this administration is dead set on the "imprison minorities for nonviolent offenses" agenda, with Sessions doubling down on it, throwing out AA isn't a good thing. I want it to be replaced with more comprehensive and fair systems to reduce the racial education gap - Trump sure as fuck won't do that. He'll address discrimination against white people while doubling down on and legitimizing the far, far more severe discrimination against minorities. It's like trying to take care of an apple tree by polishing a single apple over and over while the other half of the tree wilts and dies and the apples rot and fall to the ground. Eliminating AA is something that should be done [I]when other programs are available to continue reducing the gap[/I] - that's not what's happening here.[/QUOTE] You keep believing AA "reduces the gap", [B]it doesn't.[/B] AA is not a good solution because it's not a solution at all. [i]Stop thinking that more "balanced" population distribution means less inequality.[/i] If people were all randomly reassigned a race all of a sudden, races would be evenly distributed among all populations. Would that solve the issue of incredibly poor social mobility? Would that make things more fair? If not, why do you seem to believe that is the only criterion that should be met? Why is AA even a solution in your eyes when it increases the amount of perpetrated individual injustices? Is that not the metric that should actually matter? AA should be scrapped, period. You shouldn't wait for a "replacement", it doesn't do anything good in the first place.

[QUOTE=Bazsil;52534981]I don't see why people are trying to deflect and make this about how horrible and racist the Trump administration is AA is bullshit and needs to go, I don't care who takes the plate to get it gone. If just the mere concept of the Trump administration having some sort of "victory" is offensive regardless of what that "victory" is, then maybe someone else should have taken AA on sooner.[/QUOTE] I don't trust racist elf man Jeff Sessions to do it though.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52534914]As I have stated 27 times before in this thread, focus on whats making minority groups perform academically. Find out why the kids arent taking an interest in schooling and do something to fix it.[/QUOTE] Do you really think miniorities under perform due to lack of interest?

[QUOTE=Action Frank;52539192]Do you really think miniorities under perform due to lack of interest?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52530884] AA needs to be done away with, [b]but the issues causing minorities to perform worse academically also need to be tackled at the same time[/b][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52530941]As I described in my earlier post, instead of handicapping white people to make them less successful, why not target the reason why minority groups are less successful?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52533743] If minorities are doing poorly in school, dont stunt the better performing races. Focus on why those minority groups are doing poorly and fix it.[/QUOTE] No, I've just been trying to rephrase the same statement over and over because apparently I write in such a way that it's incomprehensible.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52534914] Yes [/QUOTE] Could you cite any times this has happened, preferably situations that exist today on a consistent basis?

[QUOTE=Raidyr;52539211]Could you cite any times this has happened, preferably situations that exist today on a consistent basis?[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/2015/06/01/college-counselors-advise-some-asian-students-appear-less-asian/Ew7g4JiQMiqYNQlIwqEIuO/story.html"]Sure[/URL] [URL="https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2016/09/19/the-discrimination-in-college-admissions-nobody-is-talking-about/#448862cb658c"]can[/URL]. [quote]While it’s fair to say that part of this belief stems from speculation, the claim that Asians have it harder is not unwarranted. A 2009 study by the National Study of College Experience shows that an Asian applicant must score 140 points higher than White applicants, 320 points higher than Hispanic applicants, and 450 points higher than Black applicants on the SAT to be viewed in an equal light.[/quote] [URL="https://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/Opportunity%20Cost%20of%20Admission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20June%202005.pdf"]The paper this snippet talks about.[/URL] Thats how AA works man. It enacts quotas to keep the student body racially diverse, and lowers academic prerequisites for certain races if they're not meeting quotas. Once the quotas are met for Whites and Asians, they'll focus on admitting more Latinos and Blacks by lowering the bar and denying White and Asian applicants. This is why Asian people are trying to sound non-Asian as possible on college applications, and Whites are trying to sound non-White on their applications.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;52534317]Does this actually happen though. Yeah this is never going to change.[/QUOTE] Bakke v regents of california The courts ruled in favor of affirmative action but they also said something along the lines of "we don't like it"

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52533828]I agree with you, I was just trying to point out how the intent of affirmative action is discriminatory in a very different way than what people usually think of with "racism." The intent is genuinely good, but there are better ways for institutions to address both institutional racism and societal racism.[/QUOTE] Even the KKK will claim that they're just trying to protect the white race from the lesser races. Every racist policy is made with "good" intent from the perspective of the person arguing for it. That isn't some redeemable quality. [editline]5th August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52534240]AA is more like having your right hand cut off to make it fair for people who dont have right hands. Apologies for using a terrible infographic, [IMG]http://culturalorganizing.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/originalequityvsequality.jpg[/IMG] Instead of making the fence chain link so everyone has the ability to see the game, policies like AA would take away everyone's boxes and give them to the short child since he wasnt privileged. It is not a bandaid, it is not a solution. It aids one group by taking away from another. Its discrimination.[/QUOTE] There are so many inherent problems with this picture. Here's a small set of examples: 1) It uses individuals to represent groups. 2) It presents life as a situation with one objective standard of success (seeing over the fence) while real life has tons of varying levels of success. 3) The boxes are easily and clearly transferable when real life 'advantages' are almost never transferable in the same way. You can't take away a good family upbringing and give it to someone who grew up in an unstable family, even though that is a MASSIVE advantage that will have extremely long last effects. etc. It's useless on any level deeper than the extreme surface.