[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34030350]Two religious services in a row?
I'm willing to bet the individuals who owned the store and private house resembled or were Muslim/Hindu
[editline]3rd January 2012[/editline]
Seems way to coincidental to be random.[/QUOTE]
One of the religious services was a house though
[QUOTE=Sam 01 1;34026450]Sadly, all the educated people who know this aren't in positions of power in the media.[/QUOTE]
They are. They're just not motivated about conveying the truth and nothing but the truth. To paraphrase the wiki page for Public Opinion, the magnum opus of Walter Lippman; "In any given news event, all of the pertinent facts are almost never provided completely and accurately and as a fraction of the whole, they are often are arranged to portray a certain, subjective interpretation of an event. Often, those who know the “real” (true) environment construct a favorable, fictitious pseudo-environment in the public mind to suit his or her private needs. Propaganda is inherently impossible without a barrier of censorship — between the event and the public — thus, the mass communication media, by their natures as vehicles for informational transmission, are immutably vulnerable to manipulation.
The blame for this perceptual parallax does not fall upon the mass media technology (print, radio, cinema, television) or logistical concerns, rather, upon certain members of society who attend to life with little intellectual engagement, because they suffer from anemia, from lack of appetite and curiosity for the human scene. Theirs is no problem of access to the world outside. Worlds of interest are waiting for them to explore, and they do not enter."
[QUOTE=BCell;34026101]And for the record, Sep 11 was never a religiously motivated attack but the media and Al-Qaeda made it seems so.[/QUOTE]
Last words of the hijackers: "Allah is great"
[QUOTE=markfu;34047083]But what you have to understand about the Norway shootings, everyone pretty much pinned it on Muslims, including a vast majority of facepunchers. Its not just a Fox thing.[/QUOTE]
It seemed quite likely at the time, considering a Muslim tried to blow himself up a busy Stockholm shopping street not long before, and ironically enough if it had been true it would have actually helped Breivik's cause instead of causing a downturn in support for far right parties across Scandinavia.
[QUOTE=Noble;34050014]Last words of the hijackers: "Allah is great"[/QUOTE]
That means absolutely nothing nor would it even imply the attack was a religious one.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;34050095]That means absolutely nothing nor would it even imply the attack was a religious one.[/QUOTE]
Do you really think that they would be willing to do something like that if they didn't 100% believe they had a reward waiting on "the other side".
[QUOTE=Noble;34050014]Last words of the hijackers: "Allah is great"[/QUOTE]
Because it's totally impossible the hijackers were convinced into thinking it was a religious crime :rolleye:
[QUOTE=Starpluck;34050095]That means absolutely nothing nor would it even imply the attack was a religious one.[/QUOTE]
The last words of the hijackers being used to proclaim the greatness of their god doesn't imply that the attack was religious? What are you suggesting, that it was solely power politics?
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;34050230]The last words of the hijackers being used to proclaim the greatness of their god doesn't imply that the attack was religious? What are you suggesting, that it was solely power politics?[/QUOTE]
[b]Because lying is impossible![/b]
[QUOTE=Drsalvador;34050168]Because it's totally impossible the hijackers were convinced into thinking it was a religious crime :rolleye:[/QUOTE]
Their holy book explicitly commanded them to kill infidels and promised rewards for martyrdom. I have a hard time imagining how 9/11 could have taken place had the hijackers not been directly motivated by religion.
[T][/T][QUOTE=Noble;34050114]Do you really think that they would be willing to do something like that if they didn't 100% believe they had a reward waiting on "the other side".[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about why 9/11 happened, not the personal beliefs of the hijackers. Sure, the people who actually volunteered (the hijackers) where insane religious zealots, but religion is not why 9/11 was planned.
[URL="http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/defense/941.pdf"]Defense Trial Exhibit 941[/URL] from the trial [URL="http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/"]United States v. Zacarias Moussaoui Criminal No. 01-455-A[/URL] states the following:
[release]
Sheikh Mohammed said that the purpose of the attack on the Twin Towers was to "wake the American people up." Sheikh Mohammed said that if the target would have been strictly military or government, the American people would not focus on the atrocities that America is committing by supporting Israel against the Palestinian people and America's self-serving foreign policy that corrupts Arab governments and leads to further exploitation of the Arab/Muslim peoples.[/release]
Furthermore, you can head to page 147 of the [URL="http://www.911commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf"]9/11 Commission report[/URL], which states (I'm paraphrasing, copy/pasting is disabled for the .pdf for whatever stupid reason) "KSM's [mastermind of 9/11] animus of USA was not due to his experience there as a student, but strong disagreement of U.S. policies with Israel"
In the final 9/11 Commission Video Testimony, the commission stated that the main motive of the attack was to "punish the U.S. for their support of Israel" - not because of religion.
Yeah of course, I'm not denying that they did it for political reasons. I'm saying that they were promised a reward after death, which gave them the actual motivation to do it. If they were explicitly told they were going to hell for killing other people, I don't think they'd be very eager to do it.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;34050352][T][/T]
I'm talking about why 9/11 happened, not the personal beliefs of the hijackers. Sure, the people who actually volunteered (the hijackers) where insane religious zealots, but religion is not why 9/11 was planned.
[URL="http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/defense/941.pdf"]Defense Trial Exhibit 941[/URL] from the trial [URL="http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/"]United States v. Zacarias Moussaoui Criminal No. 01-455-A[/URL] states the following:
[release]
Sheikh Mohammed said that the purpose of the attack on the Twin Towers was to "wake the American people up." Sheikh Mohammed said that if the target would have been strictly military or government, the American people would not focus on the atrocities that America is committing by supporting Israel against the Palestinian people and America's self-serving foreign policy that corrupts Arab governments and leads to further exploitation of the Arab/Muslim peoples.[/release]
Furthermore, you can head to page 147 of the [URL="http://www.911commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf"]9/11 Commission report[/URL], which states (I'm paraphrasing, copy/pasting is disabled for the .pdf for whatever stupid reason) "KSM's [mastermind of 9/11] animus of USA was not due to his experience there as a student, but strong disagreement of U.S. policies with Israel"
In the final 9/11 Commission Video Testimony, the commission stated that the main motive of the attack was to "punish the U.S. for their support of Israel" - not because of religion.[/QUOTE]
So, exactly why are they angry with Israel? Because it's "occupying Muslim holy land." the last time I checked.
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;34050483]So, exactly why are they angry with Israel? Because it's "occupying Muslim holy land." the last time I checked.[/QUOTE]
Because they've occupying Palestinian land for the past 44 years illegally, as recognized by the ICJ, UNSC, the international community and so on.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;34050610]Because they've occupying Palestinian land for the past 44 years illegally, as recognized by the ICJ, UNSC, the international community and so on.[/QUOTE]
You think anyone in the Muslim world gives a shit about the Palestinians? The Palestinians were dirt to the Muslim world (and in particular to the pure blooded Arabs of the Arabian peninsula proper) before Israel stepped in and occupied some of the most holy sites in Islam. The notion of defending the Palestinian peoples right to self determination is just a rhetorical device to add depth to their argument and to sway atheists in the West who would be otherwise unconvinced by purely religious arguments.
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;34050230]The last words of the hijackers being used to proclaim the greatness of their god doesn't imply that the attack was religious? What are you suggesting, that it was solely power politics?[/QUOTE]
Bin Laden used religion as a tool to carry out his political attack. To the drones it was both. To the masterminds it was solely political.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;34051585]Bin Laden used religion as a tool to carry out his political attack. To the drones it was both. To the masterminds it was solely political.[/QUOTE]
How convenient that we have the personal psychiatrist of Bin Laden and Mohammed Atta with us to tell us these things.
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;34050726]You think anyone in the Muslim world gives a shit about the Palestinians? The Palestinians were dirt to the Muslim world (and in particular to the pure blooded Arabs of the Arabian peninsula proper) before Israel stepped in and occupied some of the most holy sites in Islam. The notion of defending the Palestinian peoples right to self determination is just a rhetorical device to add depth to their argument and to sway atheists in the West who would be otherwise unconvinced by purely religious arguments.[/QUOTE]
Dirt to the Muslim world is still part of the Muslim world, and if they were able to prop up a country in their land wouldn't it be reasonable to think they could do it to any other Muslim country?
[editline]4th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;34051628]How convenient that we have the personal psychiatrist of Bin Laden and Mohammed Atta with us to tell us these things.[/QUOTE]
Um your opinion is way less founded then mine, I have the same commission report Starpluck posted backing me, you have jack shit, just "must be religious cuz they're religious people"
but why bother arguing with the guy who got banned for calling Islam a stain on the world lol
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;34051642]Dirt to the Muslim world is still part of the Muslim world, and if they were able to prop up a country in their land wouldn't it be reasonable to think they could do it to any other Muslim country?[/QUOTE]
That's my point. It is a religious issue.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;34051642]Um your opinion is way less founded then mine, I have the same commission report Starpluck posted backing me, you have jack shit, just "must be religious cuz they're religious people"
but why bother arguing with the guy who got banned for calling Islam a stain on the world lol[/QUOTE]
Yes, why bother standing up for your arguments? You forget that Islam is a complete system, separation of mosque and state is not a concept in the Muslim world. Religious and political motives do not cancel each other out here, they are more or less one and the same.
Muslim community in NYC has been pretty much in a weird spot since 9/11 and the rise of Islamophobia (or defenders against "Islamification" of the US or Islamofascism as Geller types would have it). I recall an earlier story highlighting how the NYPD and federal agencies had been specifically singling out Muslim communities in the city for investigation, even when said groups were helping the police against 'domestic terrorism'.
Unfortunately, people don't seem to see this is an act of hate and intimidation, and go into irrelevant tangents about terrorism and what Islam is or isn't. I find it weird that despite having no association with al Qaeda anymore than an average 'Christian' would with nutty fringe groups, the Muslim community as a whole seems to be expected to 'answer' for these crimes and somehow responsible for everything that happens by someone who is a Muslim or claims to do it in the name of Islam.
With the attack on the Hindu temple, I would wager that who ever hit these places was probably attacking people solely on appearance that they seem to have formed from the media or certain groups encourageing paranoia about Islam, like how many Sikhs were attacked after 9/11 seemingly only because they were wearing turbans and had funny names that they seemed to think was the exclusive domain of the various ethnicities where Islam is a major religion.
[QUOTE=Noble;34050114]Do you really think that they would be willing to do something like that if they didn't 100% believe they had a reward waiting on "the other side".[/QUOTE]
It may have helped, but so would money.
Doesn't make it religious.
[editline]4th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Noble;34050297]Their holy book explicitly commanded them to kill infidels and promised rewards for martyrdom. [/QUOTE]
no it doesn't, where does it say that?
Sounds more to me that your racist ramblings are from hearsay.
[editline]5th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;34050726]You think anyone in the Muslim world gives a shit about the Palestinians? The Palestinians were dirt to the Muslim world (and in particular to the pure blooded Arabs of the Arabian peninsula proper) before Israel stepped in and occupied some of the most holy sites in Islam. The notion of defending the Palestinian peoples right to self determination is just a rhetorical device to add depth to their argument and to sway atheists in the West who would be otherwise unconvinced by purely religious arguments.[/QUOTE]
Western supported occupation and injustice of Muslim land and people is a pretty good motivator for anti-west Muslims. There's a lot of cognitive dissonance in the Arabic world about Palestinians and Whuabbist muslims.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34054760]Western supported occupation and injustice of Muslim land and people is a pretty good motivator for anti-west Muslims. There's a lot of cognitive dissonance in the Arabic world about Palestinians and Whuabbist muslims.[/QUOTE]
It's not really Muslim land though, is it? Deviating from the point though, which is that the main reason people across the Middle East are so outraged is not because Palestinians suffer injustice, it's because Western/Israeli presence in the Holy Land is an affront to their sense of religious propriety (They seem to have conveniently forgotten the part where they took it from Christians by violent force in the first place.)
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34054760]
It may have helped, but so would money.
[/quote]
I don't think money is going to be a very good motivation to kill yourself for, considering you won't be able to spend it when you're dead.
Anyway nice try, but the hijackers were fully motivated by rewards promised for martyrdom.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34054760]
no it doesn't, where does it say that?[/quote]
2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.
[quote]Sounds more to me that your racist ramblings are from hearsay.[/QUOTE]
Let's not throw the word "racist" around when someone says things we disagree with. Islam after all is a religion, not a race.
Can you point out specifically where you think I was racist in my post(s)? I don't remember saying a thing about anyone's race.
[QUOTE=Noble;34056533]I don't think money is going to be a very good motivation to kill yourself for, considering you won't be able to spend it when you're dead.[/quote]
I wasn't making a hypothetical situation, things like this happen, they did give them money. The money was given to their families and whoever they wanted it to.
[quote]Anyway nice try, but the hijackers were fully motivated by rewards promised for martyrdom.[/quote]
It was a part of it, but it wasn't their entire reason for doing it and it's fucking stupid to think it is.
[quote]2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.[/quote]
I am SO sick of seeing this fucking quote. It's about people who oppress and threaten Muslims. It's about defending yourself against persecution.
[quote]2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.[/quote]
Like seriously, are you SO dense that you missed the point of a quote you quoted?
I severely doubt you've ever read the Quran.
[quote]Can you point out specifically where you think I was racist in my post(s)? I don't remember saying a thing about anyone's race.[/QUOTE]
Your rampant Islmaphobia.
Is Islam a religion or is it a race? Let's get that nonsense out of the way first.
I also said religion was not their entire reason for doing it. If you go a couple posts up I agree that it had a lot to do with political reasons, but the motivation and courage to do it was clearly religious.
Clearly the extremists felt they were being persecuted by the west and found justification for holy war within the Quran for this reason. So no I really didn't miss the point. They thought they were going to be rewarded in the afterlife for killing infidels/people they perceived to be causing harm to Islam.
I never said that I've read the entire Quran, actually I read a good portion of it but found it too repetitive to bother finishing it. You don't need to have read the entire Quran to know that the book is full of intolerance for other religions/nonbelievers.
[QUOTE=Noble;34057064]Is Islam a religion or is it a race? Let's get that nonsense out of the way first.[/quote]
It's a lot like Judaism, which is a culture as well as a religion.
[quote]I also said religion was not their entire reason for doing it. If you go a couple posts up I agree that it had a lot to do with political reasons, but the motivation and courage to do it was clearly religious.[/quote]
it's a 50/50, either they were completly corrupted or they knew and had political reasons to do it. Either way, why does it matter?
[quote]Clearly the extremists felt they were being persecuted by the west and found justification for holy war within the Quran for this reason. So no I really didn't miss the point. They thought they were going to be rewarded in the afterlife for killing infidels/people they perceived to be causing harm to Islam.[/quote]
Okay? but you said it "explicitly commanded them to kill infidels"
[quote]I never said that I've read the entire Quran, actually I read a good portion of it but found it too repetitive to bother finishing it. You don't need to have read the entire Quran to know that the book is full of intolerance for other religions/nonbelievers.[/QUOTE]
What you quoted is surah 2. That's the second chapter lol
To the people at the top: Nothing to do with religion. They used and still use religion to recruit followers. Religion is a powerful social force. Doesn't even matter if they believe themselves, their motives are all the same.
To the hijackers/average al-Qaeda militant: Doing it as it is God's will. Allahu Akbar, etc.
Is this really that fucking hard to understand? When digging below the surface, every single conflict in human history is about land, money, resources, power, or a combination of all four. You could even simply say power, as it encompasses the other three.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34057177]It's a lot like Judaism, which is a culture as well as a religion. [/quote]
There are Muslims of many different races. Being a muslim isn't just limited to one race of people. So no.
You couldn't call someone who criticizes Judaism racist either. At worst they could be considered an anti semite.
[quote]it's a 50/50, either they were completly corrupted or they knew and had political reasons to do it. Either way, why does it matter?[/quote]
They have videos of several hijackers making speeches about martyrdom and their last will, smiling and laughing on camera. It's because they believe for a fact that they'll be rewarded after death that gave them the courage to kill themselves and other people.
[quote]Okay? but you said it "explicitly commanded them to kill infidels"[/quote]
Yup, and it does, the above quotes were just two examples. Here's some more commands to kill people:
9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[quote]What you quoted is surah 2. That's the second chapter lol[/QUOTE]
Alright, and you can find plenty of intolerance in the first 2 books of the Bible too, so what is your point? Even skimming through nearly every chapter of the Quran you can find all kinds of lines talking about how everyone who isn't a muslim is going to burn in hell for eternity. That doesn't sound very tolerant, now does it?
[QUOTE=Starpluck;34050610]Because they've occupying Palestinian land for the past 44 years illegally, as recognized by the ICJ, UNSC, [/QUOTE]
[img]http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/17166/1150513-unsc_logo_large.png[/img]
It is depressing that is what came to mind.
[quote]Their holy book explicitly commanded them to kill infidels and promised rewards for martyrdom. I have a hard time imagining how 9/11 could have taken place had the hijackers not been directly motivated by religion.[/quote]
Have fun proving that.
[QUOTE=Noble;34050014]Last words of the hijackers: "Allah is great"[/QUOTE] First words after stubbing my toe on a table: "God damn it". Does this indicate that I'm about to go jihad on tables
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