[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;34080661]Have fun proving that.[/QUOTE]
Sure, look up a few posts. There's a few quotes above showing where god (through his prophet) commands the death of infidels. (though we can debate the context in which this is supposed to happen, its still there)
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34080994]First words after stubbing my toe on a table: "God damn it". Does this indicate that I'm about to go jihad on tables[/QUOTE]
Lol, that's funny, but of course it's not the same thing. There's a difference between saying "god damn that hurt" as a reaction to something, and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takbir"]using a common religious expression for a battle cry[/url] as you get ready to kill yourself and thousands of others.
[quote]After 9/11, the FBI released a letter reportedly handwritten by the hijackers and found in three separate copies on 9/11—at Dulles, at the Pennsylvania crash site, and in Mohamed Atta's suitcase. It included a checklist of final reminders for the 9/11 hijackers. [b]An excerpt reads: "When the confrontation begins, strike like champions who do not want to go back to this world. Shout, 'Allahu Akbar,' because this strikes fear in the hearts of the non-believers."[/b] Also, in the cockpit voice recorders found at the crash site of Flight 93, the hijackers are heard to be reciting the Takbir as the plane plummeted toward the ground.[5][6][7][8][/quote]
[QUOTE=Noble;34081330]Sure, look up a few posts. There's a few quotes above showing where god (through his prophet) commands the death of infidels. (though we can debate the context in which this is supposed to happen, its still there)[/QUOTE]
The old testament says rape victims are to be killed, I do not think we can blame that for every religious person murdering a rape victim.
[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;34081759]The old testament says rape victims are to be killed, I do not think we can blame that for every religious person murdering a rape victim.[/QUOTE]
Jesus fucking christ, did you really just say that? The situation is more akin to a religious person murdering a rape victim and screaming "I'M DOING THIS BECAUSE OF (insert section) OF THE OLD TESTAMENT TOLD ME TO".
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;34050726]You think anyone in the Muslim world gives a shit about the Palestinians? The Palestinians were dirt to the Muslim world (and in particular to the pure blooded Arabs of the Arabian peninsula proper) before Israel stepped in and occupied some of the most holy sites in Islam. The notion of defending the Palestinian peoples right to self determination is just a rhetorical device to add depth to their argument and to sway atheists in the West who would be otherwise unconvinced by purely religious arguments.[/QUOTE]
You're dropping such a bigoted statement with no basis whatsoever.
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;34055274]It's not really Muslim land though, is it? Deviating from the point though, which is that the main reason people across the Middle East are so outraged is not because Palestinians suffer injustice, it's because Western/Israeli presence in the Holy Land is an affront to their sense of religious propriety (They seem to have conveniently forgotten the part where they took it from Christians by violent force in the first place.)[/QUOTE]
Excuse me are you honestly trying to say that muslims only care about other muslims? Or are you trying to say that muslims don't care about anyone at all, perhaps? I hope you don't really believe half the shit you say.
[QUOTE=Noble;34056533]
2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.
[/QUOTE]
I suppose you're implying that these verses allow/encourage muslims to kill/oppress all other non-muslims. That claim has been countlessly debunked repeatedly. You're selectively pulling quotes to misrepresent the context.
Let's roll back a little and look at the full set of verses, shall we?
[I][B]2:190[/B] - And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.[/I]
[I][B]2:191[/B] - And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.[/I]
[I][B]2:192[/B] - But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.[/I]
[I][B]2:193[/B] - And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.[/I]
(I love how you skipped 2:190, by the way. The verse clearly classifies the following verses in regard to retaliation.)
These verses were given during a time in which the Meccans waged war upon the Muslims, before one particularly vicious battle. "They" and "unbelievers" refers to the Meccans - it [I]does not[/I] refer to all non-muslims. So [I]no,[/I] the muslims who you pass by on the street probably [I]don't[/I] have a secret vendetta against you, and they're probably [I]not[/I] plotting to murder you. Actually, if those verses really meant what you wanted them to mean, then why are muslims allowed to marry non-muslims? How would that even work out?
[QUOTE=The Epidemic;34085456]Text[/QUOTE]
Alright, riddle me this, since Mohammed is the paragon of virtue and all Muslim men should emulate him, and since Mohammed spent a large portion of his life conquering and forcibly converting non-believers, doesn't that invalidate any and all excuses you may have?
The only difference between Islamic acts of terror and other religions is that Muslims seem to be able to succeed
[QUOTE=The Epidemic;34085456] So [I]no,[/I] the muslims who you pass by on the street probably [I]don't[/I] have a secret vendetta against you, and they're probably [I]not[/I] plotting to murder you. Actually, if those verses really meant what you wanted them to mean, then why are muslims allowed to marry non-muslims? How would that even work out?[/QUOTE]
I never said anything about moderate muslims.
Mean what I want them to mean? No I don't selectively believe things just because I want them to be true or false...I'm saying the extremists found justification for it within their religious texts.
There's other parts of their scriptures that I quoted above even if you believe that one is "out of context".
[i]Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. 9:5
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve ... take them and kill them wherever ye find them. 4:89
The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101[/i]
And from what I understand of Islamic rules of marriage, only Muslim men can marry Christian/Jewish women. Muslim women seem to be forbidden from marrying Christian/Jewish men.
The quran spends half the book talking about how every non-muslim is going to burn in hell for eternity, so I'm not buying claims that it's tolerant toward non-believers.
[editline]6th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=WubWubWompWomp;34085940]The only difference between Islamic acts of terror and other religions is that Muslims seem to be able to succeed[/QUOTE]
Crusades?
If this was a Christian Church, most Facepunchers would be cheering them on.
[QUOTE=kaine123;34086199]If this was a Christian Church, most Facepunchers would be cheering them on.[/QUOTE]
Not really.
allahu akbar is not necessarily a religious man's phrase, just like how not only religious people say "oh my god"
[QUOTE=kaine123;34086199]If this was a Christian Church, most Facepunchers would be cheering them on.[/QUOTE]
Nah not really. It's bigger chance that someone firebomb a mosque in a western country.
It's a bigger chance that someone firebomb a church in a middle eastern country.
Depends on who is majority / minority.
It's even common that muslims/christians/jews burn down their own mosques/churches.
[QUOTE=Kung Fu Jew;34086301]allahu akbar is not necessarily a religious man's phrase, just like how not only religious people say "oh my god"[/QUOTE]
No, it means "God is the greatest" and has been used as a battlecry in the Muslim world for centuries. Do you really think that self described religious zealots would take Allah's name in vain?
I don't know why this thread is about 9/11
Regardless I challenge anyone to actually interview the locals involved in the Israel/Palestine conflict (one of the chief motivators behind 9/11 according to Osama and Al-Qaeda) and ask them if they don't think religion is important.
Ultimately it boils down to land, but who gets that land? Who gets to worship on it and who doesn't? What religious icons will be allowed to stand and be visited etc. Religion is very integral to the whole process because it's integral to the Middle East itself. No, it's not black and white and no, Islam isn't evil, but really? Religion had [b]nothing[/b] to do with 9/11?
[QUOTE=Kung Fu Jew;34086301]allahu akbar is not necessarily a religious man's phrase, just like how not only religious people say "oh my god"[/QUOTE]
Are you trying to say the terrorists involved in 9/11 weren't religious people? Because they were
In what way is saying 'God is Great" not a religious phrase? Because in secular Middle Eastern countries they prefer to chant the names of famous Arabian generals instead. "Ali Baba!" for example.
[QUOTE=Noble;34050014]Last words of the hijackers: "Allah is great"[/QUOTE]
Some people in the Middle East say Allahu Ackbar before they take a shit. It's just something they say. They're a religious people, but it doesn't mean the attack was religiously motivated.
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;34086512]No, it means "God is the greatest" and has been used as a battlecry in the Muslim world for centuries. Do you really think that self described religious zealots would take Allah's name in vain?[/QUOTE]
You don't seem to realize how much Muslims use that phrase, and for what reason.
(hint: all the time, for any reason)
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;34050726]You think anyone in the Muslim world gives a shit about the Palestinians? The Palestinians were dirt to the Muslim world (and in particular to the pure blooded Arabs of the Arabian peninsula proper) before Israel stepped in and occupied some of the most holy sites in Islam. The notion of defending the Palestinian peoples right to self determination is just a rhetorical device to add depth to their argument and to sway atheists in the West who would be otherwise unconvinced by purely religious arguments.[/QUOTE]
Do you even have any fucking idea what you're talking about? Dirt to the Muslim world? How the fuck would that be possible if the majority of Palestinian people are Sunni Muslims? The fight to free Palestine is not religiously motivated, sure there's Masjid Al-Haram in Jersualem but they are actually just backing Palestine up for the displacement on their people, something that the corrupt Arab governments decide to turn a blind eye to because of a gratuitous amount of money that flows into their pockets by the US government. Why do you think there's an Arab Spring in the first place?
[editline]7th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;34086512]No, it means "God is the greatest" and has been used as a battlecry in the Muslim world for centuries. Do you really think that self described religious zealots would take Allah's name in vain?[/QUOTE]
Again. I'm a muslim and you have no idea what you're saying. The person you quoted was completely right. It's not a battle cry, although it can be used as one considering the people THINK they're serving god (while the rest of the Muslim world thinks that they're fucked in the after-life) but Allah is only the Arabic word for God. No more. So 'Allahu Akbar' is the [B]exact same thing [/B] as "God is Great". Meaning it's used in casual context, and that it's not a battle cry simply because some lunatics chant it before they kill a bunch of innocent people.
[QUOTE=Jim_Riley;34026575]
Anyway, with regards to the article: What's up with people being so stupid regarding the difference between Muslim and Hindu? You see a turban and you automatically think "muslim...terrorist...bad...!". Damn stupid.[/QUOTE]
that's funny considering Hindu's usually don't wear turban's.
Sikh's do.
[QUOTE=Regulas021;34089635]I don't know why this thread is about 9/11
Regardless I challenge anyone to actually interview the locals involved in the Israel/Palestine conflict (one of the chief motivators behind 9/11 according to Osama and Al-Qaeda) and ask them if they don't think religion is important.
Ultimately it boils down to land, but who gets that land? Who gets to worship on it and who doesn't? What religious icons will be allowed to stand and be visited etc. Religion is very integral to the whole process because it's integral to the Middle East itself. No, it's not black and white and no, Islam isn't evil, but really? Religion had [b]nothing[/b] to do with 9/11?
Are you trying to say the terrorists involved in 9/11 weren't religious people? Because they were
In what way is saying 'God is Great" not a religious phrase? Because in secular Middle Eastern countries they prefer to chant the names of famous Arabian generals instead. "Ali Baba!" for example.[/QUOTE]
Religion only had as much to do with 9/11 as the people who thought they found a loophole in which suicide = martyrdom; when really actual martyrdom is achieved through dying in self defense when protecting your religion or country. i.e someone holds a gun to your head and says "Convert to ____ or I'll kill you" if you choose to be killed, then you're martyred. Not if you fucking kill innocent people who have nothing to do with anything. Suicides one of the biggest no-nos in Islam. They say that by whatever means you killed yourself, you will be doing it over and over in hell; and not dying so you feel the full pain of it.
That last part was a joke right? Please tell me it was. Please.
[editline]7th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;34092576]that's funny considering Hindu's usually don't wear turban's.
Sikh's do.[/QUOTE]
Turban wearing is a dying out tradition in Islam, you'll hardly see anyone who wears one these days. Usually you only see these kinds of muslims in the Indian sub-continent part of the world. It was something that was much more prevalent back when turbans were traditional Arabic apparel but no more.
Vishnu's gonna be pissed
thats hot XD
zing
[QUOTE=fuckyoubitch;34093225]thats hot XD
zing[/QUOTE]
Vishnu will shove his four arms up your buttocks,so deep they'll go all the way to your mouth.
[QUOTE=znk666;34093285]Vishnu will shove his four arms up your buttocks,so deep they'll go all the way to your mouth.[/QUOTE]
who is that? is that a mod? i think im not the only one making bad jokes around here!!
[QUOTE=Conspiracy;34092595]Religion only had as much to do with 9/11 as the people who thought they found a loophole in which suicide = martyrdom; when really actual martyrdom is achieved through dying in self defense when protecting your religion or country. i.e someone holds a gun to your head and says "Convert to ____ or I'll kill you" if you choose to be killed, then you're martyred. Not if you fucking kill innocent people who have nothing to do with anything. Suicides one of the biggest no-nos in Islam. They say that by whatever means you killed yourself, you will be doing it over and over in hell; and not dying so you feel the full pain of it.
That last part was a joke right? Please tell me it was. Please.
[editline]7th January 2012[/editline]
Turban wearing is a dying out tradition in Islam, you'll hardly see anyone who wears one these days. Usually you only see these kinds of muslims in the Indian sub-continent part of the world. It was something that was much more prevalent back when turbans were traditional Arabic apparel but no more.[/QUOTE]
You are the voice of reason.
I like you.
[QUOTE=Jim_Riley;34026575]I thought people were supposed to strive being open minded with their news sources and actually watch a variety of sources and decide for themselves.
That's why BBC is where it's at.[/QUOTE]
The hypocracy here is astounding, not that i dont agree about the BBC.
Fox news is basically all propoganda and bias, so we enjoy bashing it for what it is. Any questions?
[QUOTE=Noble;34057064]
I never said that I've read the entire Quran, actually I read a good portion of it but found it too repetitive to bother finishing it. You don't need to have read the entire Quran to know that the book is full of intolerance for other religions/nonbelievers.[/QUOTE]
Is that so?
[quote]
Honor each other: "O mankind! We created you from a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes that you may know and honor each other (not that you should despise one another). Indeed the most honorable of you in the sight of God is the most righteous." Chapter 49, Verse 13
“Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”
(Qur’an, 2:190)
“There is no compulsion in religion” (2:256).
“Had God willed, they had not been idolatrous. We have not set thee as a keeper over them, nor art thou responsible for them” (6:107).
“Do not revile those unto whom they pray beside God, lest they wrongfully revile God through ignorance” (6:108)
“Do not allow your hatred of a folk who [once] stopped your going to the Inviolable Place of Worship seduce you to transgress; but help ye one another unto righteousness and pious duty. Help not one another unto sin and transgression, but keep your duty to God” (5:2).
A charter written by Muhammad:
“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by God! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are declared to be protected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”
Nay, but whosoever surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ. Qur’an 2:111-113
Fight in the path of God those who fight you, but do not aggress. Surely God does not love the aggressors. And fight them where you come upon them, and send them out from where they have sent you out, for persecution is a worse thing than fighting. And do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque (in Mecca) unless they fight you there, but if they fight you, then fight them back. That is the reward of the rejectors. Then if they cease, so God is All-Forgiving, Gentle. And fight them until there is no more persecution and the religion is for God. But if they cease, so let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. - Qur’an 2:190-193[/quote]
Even denouncements of extremism:
[quote]
“We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, Nose for nose, ear of ear, Tooth for tooth, and wounds Equal for equal.” But if any one remits the retaliation By way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself.” Qur’an 4:45
O you, those who have faith, when you go out to fight in the path of God, make things clear and do not say to someone who gives you peace, “You are not a believer,” - you coveting the pleasures of the life of the world, and with God is abundant reward. You were the same as that before, then God was gracious to you. So make it clear. Surely God is aware of what you do. - Qur’an 4:94
Whosoever kills an innocent human being, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and whosoever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. (5:32)
Unto every one of you have We appointed a different law and way of life. And if God had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community: but He willed it otherwise in order to test you by means of what He has revealed to you. Compete then with one another in doing good works! Unto God you all must return and then He will make you truly understand all that on which you were wont to differ. Qur’an 5:44-48
Permission (to fight) is given to those who are being attacked, because they have been wronged. And surely God measures out help for them. (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, “our Lord is Allah" Qur’an 22:39-40
The worshippers of the All-Merciful are they who tread gently upon the earth, and when the ignorant address them, they reply, “Peace!“ Qur’an 25:63
And when they hear vain talk, they turn away from it and say: “To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we do not seek out the ignorant.” Qur’an 28:55
[/quote]
What does Islam tell it's followers to do to apostates?
What does Islam say is going to happen to non-believers in the afterlife?
[QUOTE=Noble;34100669]What does Islam tell it's followers to do to apostates?
What does Islam say is going to happen to non-believers in the afterlife?[/QUOTE]
Apostasy:
“And obey God and obey the Messenger and beware (and fear God). Then if you turn away, know that our Messenger’s duty is to simply convey (the message) clearly. (5:92)
Islam teaches that in the afterlife everyone is supposed to be equal under God's eyes. If a Muslim has done wrong, and a non-Muslim has done right (In terms of charity, actual 'good' deeds, called hasanat) then the Muslim will go to hell and the non-Muslim will go to heaven. The idea is that if you were never exposed to the teachings of Islam, how are you expected to seek it out and learn about it? Every tiny little detail of a situation is taken into account, that's why it's called the Day of Judgement. The idea is also that whoever prays and follows Islam closely and properly are in the 'safe zone'. Definitely does not mean Muslims are the only ones allowed into heaven. No one is supposed to know for sure, the Qur'an explicitly makes it clear that God is the only one has any say in who gets into heaven or hell.
Non-muslims will go to heaven? First time I've heard that one.
[quote]3:85 And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.[/quote]
Apostasy
[quote]"Whoever changed his (Islamic) religion, then kill him" Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:57[/quote]
[url]http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/084-sbt.php#009.084.057[/url]
This specific verse is about the conditions required to get into heaven:
Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good. 3:134
The first verse you quoted addresses those who despised/mocked Islam, specifically while it was being revealed. If you look at the next verse: "How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and had witnessed that the Messenger is true and clear signs had come to them? And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people."
As for your second quote, that's hadith; the collected quotes of someone usually recorded from memory. The word of Quran goes far above that and states categorically and unequivocally, there shall be no coercion in matters of faith. It is difficult to test the authenticity of Hadith anyway, so when faced with a contradiction Muslims will always stick to the Quran.
Noble, you have failed to understand context of absolutely anything you've pointed out.
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