Windows 8 hate bandwagon gets a new member: Serious Sam dev hops on board - Polidicks

[QUOTE=The Baconator;38338076]I think it's more that people aren't thinking about this issue, because the misinformation they spew proves they didn't think about it or did their homework, because then there wouldn't be an issue in the first place.[/QUOTE] Yep, VALVe, Croteam, and Blizzard are just following a crowd.

[QUOTE=Tracker;38337930]Valve and Croteam have always upheld principles and values that I admire, they're there for the PC Gamer. Blizzard, not so much but still. There are so few big developers left that actually try to maintain the full extent of the PC experience, as opposed to making it more and more like consoles and closed systems. Back in the day, almost every game came with an SDK and a level editor, it was almost a requirement for games to be successful. This is rarely the case any more, to create a mod for game, fan developers have to crack open any exploits and holes to essentially hack the game into adding functionality. Most games these days aren't even written for the PC, they're written for a console and a slap-job port is done for the PC, and why? Because there are more console gamers than there are PC gamers. The console is a closed off environment, owned entirely by a single company. If you want to upgrade a console, you have to wait for the next one to come out and completely replace the one you had. They control all aspects of the system and the games that are for it, they control design, distribution and even any media displayed within the system. When Apple "innovated" this system into something for an even larger demographic, owning the entire sphere for an every-day item, including supposedly standard platforms for browsing the web and reading your e-mail, they made billions. There is only one way to get an app on your iPhone, via the Apple Store, anything else is easily considered hacking or jailbreaking the device. Windows already filled a niche, it was the go-to system for both freedom and ownership. The perfect balance between open-ness and commercial. Microsoft didn't control what you can and can't do on a PC, that's up to you, they only provided the facilities for you to do so. The metro design, windows moving to a "universal OS" and now the certification process in the Windows App store, are all clearly moves towards a similar, all-microsoft system. Microsoft are trying to compete with Apple by being more like them, and while it may even be a highly successful venture for them, they're leaving the PC enthusiast in the dust, the crowd that made them who they are today are being tossed to the curb and left to rot. I'm not concerned about what Windows is, I'm concerned about what Windows will be.[/QUOTE] Whatever windows becomes, people will always find a way to get around it they did it with iPhone and they did it with Windows Phone

Yes the store is so closed off and the requirements to publish your stuff are ridiculous!!! [t]http://i47.tinypic.com/9g9hzp.jpg[/t]

Microsoft isn't stupid enough to fuck up Windows.

[QUOTE=Wootman;38338355]Microsoft isn't stupid enough to fuck up Windows.[/QUOTE] obiously they were too stupid.

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;38336749]Well doesn't ubuntu have something similar, their software center?[/QUOTE] What, that Linux Distros site? Yeah I get a lot of cool shit legally[sup][sup]*[/sup][/sup] there.

[QUOTE]Valve Overfiend Gabe Newell described it as “a catastrophe”, and Blizzard joined in saying it was “not awesome” for them either. [/QUOTE] My two favorite developers. Guess I'm not upgrading anytime soon :v:

[QUOTE=Natrox;38338352]Yes the store is so closed off and the requirements to publish your stuff are ridiculous!!! [t]http://i47.tinypic.com/9g9hzp.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] The indie section of xbox live store is equally horrifying...

Personally, I don't like the fact that the whole interface is a marketing tool for their tablet OS. You can look at it and see that they thought "We own this market, PC users will buy it whatever we do. What we need is to get windows onto tablets." [QUOTE=Wootman;38338355]Microsoft isn't stupid enough to fuck up Windows.[/QUOTE] As I said in another thread, the problem is that the future is uncertain. Win8 is a small step towards a closed system, and these game devs don't like that. Who knows what Win9 will be like? The next version of the Xbox will most likely be out in the next few years, my guess is that Win8 is going to push a lot of tablet users to Windows. The market could be very different, by the time they fire out the next OS.

I think the underlying problem here is that, for me at least, Windows has always been the obvious option because it's an OS brand that was really (like most of the early operating systems) [i]a functional tool for work[/i] and I really do think that the real gear towards procrastination that OSX has today is still the main difference between the two most widespread consumer operating systems. Microsoft has strayed from the somewhat unwritten rule that at the end of the day, Windows has always been a great work tool that just gets the job done and that it [i]is[/i] what we think of when someone says "operating system". 8 kind of ruined that whole feel with this silly pseudo-desktop that makes the whole thing feel like you've got a giant phone screen in front of you somehow. We feel comfortable with Windows. It's not as easy to pick up, nor as good looking as OSX and it's not as efficient or streamlined as most Linux kernels, but it's well used and we know exactly what to expect. The introduction of Metro does matter; it's a nice addition for tablets but Windows should tote the 'new look' of their operating system as a main selling point, and that's the warning flag for me right now and why I probably won't be forking out for an upgrade. [b]Common guys, you're not Linux and you're not OSX; we love you the way you are.[/b]

I've been using Windows 8 for a couple of weeks and I have no complaints about it at all, once you get used to having the Metro menu, it can make things a bit quicker to do - it doesn't feel more '[I]closed off[/I]' it feels near enough the same as Windows 7 does, just with a new menu, most of the people complaining about it so much haven't even given it a chance.

[QUOTE=Proffrink;38338498]I think the underlying problem here is that, for me at least, Windows has always been the obvious option because it's an OS brand that was really (like most of the early operating systems) [i]a functional tool for work[/i] and I really do think that the real gear towards procrastination that OSX has today is still the main difference between the two most widespread consumer operating systems. Microsoft has strayed from the somewhat unwritten rule that at the end of the day, Windows has always been a great work tool that just gets the job done and that it [i]is[/i] what we think of when someone says "operating system". 8 kind of ruined that whole feel with this silly pseudo-desktop that makes the whole thing feel like you've got a giant phone screen in front of you somehow. We feel comfortable with Windows. It's not as easy to pick up, nor as good looking as OSX and it's not as efficient or streamlined as most Linux kernels, but it's well used and we know exactly what to expect. The introduction of Metro does matter; it's a nice addition for tablets but Windows should tote the 'new look' of their operating system as a main selling point, and that's the warning flag for me right now and why I probably won't be forking out for an upgrade. [b]Common guys, you're not Linux and you're not OSX; we love you the way you are.[/b][/QUOTE] Microsoft just wants to fit in, you know with the 9x classic look back in the day when OSX looked to most people amazing. I think this is really a fad and it'll die eventually maybe, but I know you can use w8 without metro with start8 If I got a tablet I would want a windows 8 tablet because it'd be compatible with everything but metro with touch screen computing is amazing.

[QUOTE=Snakess;38338565]I've been using Windows 8 for a couple of weeks and I have no complaints about it at all, once you get used to having the Metro menu, it can make things a bit quicker to do - it doesn't feel more '[I]closed off[/I]' it feels near enough the same as Windows 7 does, just with a new menu, most of the people complaining about it so much haven't even given it a chance.[/QUOTE] For all my bitching above, I do feel like eventually I will be upgrading (maybe in a year or so) and I'll probably get used to Windows 8 again. What annoys me is there are still many, many silly vulnerabilities and inefficiencies in the entire Windows family that have gone unadressed for a long, long time. Then they come out with this new (admittedly quite nice looking) style/theme and start shooting off fireworks about how amazingly slick it looks and how it will make everything so much easier and [i]how the hell did you live without this before?[/i] But yeh, I'm sure it's quite fun and all :) [QUOTE=fruxodaily;38338603]Microsoft just wants to fit in, you know with the 9x classic look back in the day when OSX looked to most people amazing. I think this is really a fad and it'll die eventually maybe, but I know you can use w8 without metro with start8 If I got a tablet I would want a windows 8 tablet because it'd be compatible with everything but metro with touch screen computing is amazing.[/QUOTE] Yah, what annoys me is that this whole Metro thing seems to be a convenient smokescreen for all the stuff that Windows still has wrong with it.

[QUOTE=Elecbullet;38336765]Ubuntu doesn't lock you into shit from the software center.[/QUOTE] ...and neither does windows 8? What are you talking about?

[QUOTE=Elspin;38338786]...and neither does windows 8? What are you talking about?[/QUOTE] Why does everybody say this? If this was the problem, then game devs would be explaining why they aren't supporting Windows 8, rather than saying that they are worried about the future. The problem isn't that Win8 locks you to the Windows store, it's that Windows 9 might.

This is just a silly rant. The whole mature game policy was removed earlier, and this is only bitching about the optional Windows Store and nothing else. Windows 8 is still the same old Windows and will have no problems running any games we can run on Windows 7. "Nobody" wants their games on the Windows Store, so who cares? We can just put the game on the metro screen ourselves if we want it there.

[QUOTE=dgg;38338822] The whole mature game policy was removed earlier[/QUOTE] This was only in Europe AFAIK.

[QUOTE=st0rmforce;38338816]Why does everybody say this? If this was the problem, then game devs would be explaining why they aren't supporting Windows 8, rather than saying that they are worried about the future. The problem isn't that Win8 locks you to the Windows store, it's that Windows 9 might.[/QUOTE] Oh, so they're not just complaining about something that microsoft didn't do - they're complaining about something microsoft didn't do AND hasn't said they will ever do but is technically possible. That's so much more logical :v: Nobody's having a shitfit about ubuntu or apple or android or anything else really having it's own store, why is it suddenly alright to hate windows for it just because there's technically a possibility (just like on every other platform) that they could make it locked down?

[QUOTE=Tracker;38337930]Valve and Croteam have always upheld principles and values that I admire, they're there for the PC Gamer. Blizzard, not so much but still. There are so few big developers left that actually try to maintain the full extent of the PC experience, as opposed to making it more and more like consoles and closed systems. Back in the day, almost every game came with an SDK and a level editor, it was almost a requirement for games to be successful. This is rarely the case any more, to create a mod for game, fan developers have to crack open any exploits and holes to essentially hack the game into adding functionality. Most games these days aren't even written for the PC, they're written for a console and a slap-job port is done for the PC, and why? Because there are more console gamers than there are PC gamers. The console is a closed off environment, owned entirely by a single company. If you want to upgrade a console, you have to wait for the next one to come out and completely replace the one you had. They control all aspects of the system and the games that are for it, they control design, distribution and even any media displayed within the system. When Apple "innovated" this system into something for an even larger demographic, owning the entire sphere for an every-day item, including supposedly standard platforms for browsing the web and reading your e-mail, they made billions. There is only one way to get an app on your iPhone, via the Apple Store, anything else is easily considered hacking or jailbreaking the device. Windows already filled a niche, it was the go-to system for both freedom and ownership. The perfect balance between open-ness and commercial. Microsoft didn't control what you can and can't do on a PC, that's up to you, they only provided the facilities for you to do so. The metro design, windows moving to a "universal OS" and now the certification process in the Windows App store, are all clearly moves towards a similar, all-microsoft system. Microsoft are trying to compete with Apple by being more like them, and while it may even be a highly successful venture for them, they're leaving the PC enthusiast in the dust, the crowd that made them who they are today are being tossed to the curb and left to rot. I'm not concerned about what Windows is, I'm concerned about what Windows will be.[/QUOTE] Problem is that Microsoft doesn't need to compete with Apple in the laptop space at all, at least as it stands. And it isn't the first time Microsoft has made a store: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Marketplace[/url] I sure as hell wouldn't like Windows to become more closed, but I think everybody is just painting the devil on the wall right now, there's not much substance in this. Microsoft even made the decision not to include desktop programs in the store other than links to a download page. If anything, this reluctance from Microsoft to accept and automatically push updates of desktop applications out to the user shows that they want the developers to do this themselves. OSX's app store does this, and in that way they can make download sites and so on redundant in the long run, but Microsoft's doesn't, and I don't think they will anytime soon. I might be wrong, but I don't see this happening.

[QUOTE=Elspin;38338893]Nobody's having a shitfit about ubuntu or apple or android or anything else really having it's own store, why is it suddenly alright to hate windows for it just because there's technically a possibility (just like on every other platform) that they could make it locked down?[/QUOTE] I actually agree totally with what you're saying because I think this whole 'store' business is nothing much to worry about. However, I think many are asking just [i]why[/i] Windows needs a store. I mean, it's not as if there aren't any other ways of getting software (which is why Android has a store), that the store is a pivotal piece of the closed-source method that Apple likes to stick to, or that it's necessary because, as with Ubuntu, they need to provide a much more accessible way to get new programs. Certainly from my point of view, I am left asking why Microsoft would choose to include a store for a platform that already has a plethora of alternatives. And frankly, one of the only answers to that question is that yes, it provides an excellent basis for them to push some DRM onto the end user. As I said, I don't think the above is true. Personally, I'm pretty sure it's just, as fruxodaily said, Windows trying to 'fit in' with the general flow of things lately. Seems every OS these days has some form of app store, but that really doesn't mean that Windows needs one too.

[QUOTE=Elspin;38338893]Oh, so they're not just complaining about something that microsoft didn't do - they're complaining about something microsoft didn't do AND hasn't said they will ever do but is technically possible. That's so much more logical :v: Nobody's having a shitfit about ubuntu or apple or android or anything else really having it's own store, why is it suddenly alright to hate windows for it just because there's technically a possibility (just like on every other platform) that they could make it locked down?[/QUOTE] Basically. With this they are taking one step in the direction of the likes of Apple. If people don't kick up a stink about this then what do you think their next step will be?

[QUOTE=Proffrink;38338972]I actually agree totally with what you're saying because I think this whole 'store' business is nothing much to worry about. However, I think many are asking just [i]why[/i] Windows needs a store. I mean, it's not as if there aren't any other ways of getting software (which is why Android has a store), that the store is a pivotal piece of the closed-source method that Apple likes to stick to, or that it's necessary because, as with Ubuntu, they need to provide a much more accessible way to get new programs. Certainly from my point of view, I am left asking why Microsoft would choose to include a store for a platform that already has a plethora of alternatives. And frankly, one of the only answers to that question is that yes, it provides an excellent basis for them to push some DRM onto the end user. As I said, I don't think the above is true. Personally, I'm pretty sure it's just, as fruxodaily said, Windows trying to 'fit in' with the general flow of things lately. Seems every OS these days has some form of app store, but that really doesn't mean that Windows needs one too.[/QUOTE] To be honest I think it's a good thing, not everyone knows enough to tell the difference between what is to us clearly spyware/viruses and for the people who just want to pick up some simple program it's probably better that way. My parents for example can't even figure out (or at least, remember) how to copy links from their browser in an email. I basically have to have a VNC running on their computers so I can do everything for them, so god forbid I tell them to go out and find x type of software to do something they want to do. The way I see it, as long as there's no attempt to make it the only way to get software (which there hasn't), I have no problem with a store on windows.

[QUOTE=Proffrink;38338972]I actually agree totally with what you're saying because I think this whole 'store' business is nothing much to worry about. However, I think many are asking just [i]why[/i] Windows needs a store. I mean, it's not as if there aren't any other ways of getting software (which is why Android has a store), that the store is a pivotal piece of the closed-source method that Apple likes to stick to, or that it's necessary because, as with Ubuntu, they need to provide a much more accessible way to get new programs. Certainly from my point of view, I am left asking why Microsoft would choose to include a store for a platform that already has a plethora of alternatives. And frankly, one of the only answers to that question is that yes, it provides an excellent basis for them to push some DRM onto the end user. As I said, I don't think the above is true. Personally, I'm pretty sure it's just, as fruxodaily said, Windows trying to 'fit in' with the general flow of things lately. Seems every OS these days has some form of app store, but that really doesn't mean that Windows needs one too.[/QUOTE] Microsoft wants Windows RT to be an actual competetitor in casual tablet space, and if you at every tablet on the market (failed or not) it has a store. That's not [I]necessarily[/I] because they want to close it off (just look at Android), it's because it's very convenient. I know many people who generally doesn't feel safe downloading programs from the internet - providing a safe, easy alternative for those folks is not a bad thing. Again, Android is open (at least to some extent), but casual users that don't have that advanced needs, can just download and update applications via the store. Without a store, Microsoft wouldn't be able to use RT in the tablet space. That's why they need a store. But why did they include it on the desktop? Well, RT hasn't been proven yet, and they had no way to ensure that it would attract developers. Using Windows 8 (an OS that is sure to sell quite a bit) to attract those developers is just a way for them to ensure groth in the store. And if you got a Windows 8 tablet, wouldn't you like to download and update Angry Birds from the store, and not have to deal with loads of updates managers and searching o the internet? It's simply convenient.

You can get Metro apps without the store too.

[QUOTE=Elspin;38338893]Oh, so they're not just complaining about something that microsoft didn't do - they're complaining about something microsoft didn't do AND hasn't said they will ever do but is technically possible. That's so much more logical :v: Nobody's having a shitfit about ubuntu or apple or android or anything else really having it's own store, why is it suddenly alright to hate windows for it just because there's technically a possibility (just like on every other platform) that they could make it locked down?[/QUOTE] Well Ubuntu is a different thing entirely. Very large chunks of it aren't owned by canonical, so they aren't fully in control of how people use their operating system. Microsoft is a company, they do whatever will make them money in the long or short term, that's what companies do. Currently they seem to be making tentative moves to take control in new areas. People aren't "complaining", they're pointing out that the direction things are going isn't one they'd like to see Microsoft going further. Generally speaking, you don't want one company to have complete control over something. If they control everything, then they make the rules. If they'd make more money by restricting games on the PC, to push more people to buy Xboxes, they'll do it. If they'd make more money by restricting the non-metro content that they allow, to sell more apps, then they'll do it. Companies don't care what you think about them, unless your opinion will cost them money.

[QUOTE=omggrass;38337068]neither does windows 8... MISINFORMATION EREWHERE! [img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5661506/windows8.png[/img][/QUOTE] That is one ugly fucking start button.

[QUOTE=proch;38339092]That is one ugly fucking start button.[/QUOTE] Looks better than the new Windows logo, though. And don't you have to mod Windows to get the classic start menu?

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38339039]Microsoft wants Windows RT to be an actual competetitor in casual tablet space, and if you at every tablet on the market (failed or not) it has a store. That's not [I]necessarily[/I] because they want to close it off (just look at Android), it's because it's very convenient. I know many people who generally doesn't feel safe downloading programs from the internet - providing a safe, easy alternative for those folks is not a bad thing. Again, Android is open (at least to some extent), but casual users that don't have that advanced needs, can just download and update applications via the store. Without a store, Microsoft wouldn't be able to use RT in the tablet space. That's why they need a store. But why did they include it on the desktop? Well, RT hasn't been proven yet, and they had no way to ensure that it would attract developers. Using Windows 8 (an OS that is sure to sell quite a bit) to attract those developers is just a way for them to ensure groth in the store. And if you got a Windows 8 tablet, wouldn't you like to download and update Angry Birds from the store, and not have to deal with loads of updates managers and searching o the internet? It's simply convenient.[/QUOTE] Good points, but you must note that I'm not talking about Windows RT; I'm talking about Windows 8.

[QUOTE=proch;38339092]That is one ugly fucking start button.[/QUOTE] There's not a lot to choose from, but I think you can add more. [img]http://puu.sh/1n44w[/img]

this windows 8 issue is so overblown you can still use all your normal applications, and put them in the start menu on top of that, you can even use metro apps that aren't certified by ms, so I fail to see how this is a closed system in any way