Windows 8 hate bandwagon gets a new member: Serious Sam dev hops on board - Polidicks

Just finished installing and I am loving it.

[QUOTE] One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store[/QUOTE] this has been said millions of times everywhere Is everyone just forgetting that the desktop is a thing that still exists and has no restrictions for programs / no windows store bullshit seriously

[QUOTE=latin_geek;38339483]this has been said millions of times everywhere Is everyone just forgetting that the desktop is a thing that still exists and has no restrictions for programs / no windows store bullshit seriously[/QUOTE] How long will that last though? The desktop is there because there are hardly any apps for the new interface yet. If they get enough third-party developers on-board over then next few years, why would they need to support the old desktop in the next version? It could never happen, but it all depends on how the market behaves and what other people do. If it becomes profitable for them to become a closed system, then they will do it if they can. The store has the potential to become a way of controlling the software they allow on their PCs. I need more tinfoil!!!!

The W8 appstore is bullshit, and the argument Valve/croteam is using is bullshit. The Windows Store is designed for the Metro layer of the OS (which I myself dislike), you have to make your apps using microsoft's designs and limitations, it's pretty much like making an iOS app. But the Windows layer in Windows 8 hasn't changed, and developers can make applications just like they did with windows 7. The only thing you get when making an application for Windows 8 without going towards the Windows Store is that you won't be able have users click install and get an -uncustomizable-tile on the start menu ! my my, developer freedom is at risk! Their argument gets even more risible when you have applications like Oblytile that allow to place custom tiles to launch .exe's on your computer, with additional launch options - giving users more freedom of customization over their start menu. This just screams "everyone hates windows 8, let's join hands and turn the tide in our favor"

[QUOTE=st0rmforce;38339596]How long will that last though? The desktop is there because there are hardly any apps for the new interface yet. If they get enough third-party developers on-board over then next few years, why would they need to support the old desktop in the next version? It could never happen, but it all depends on how the market behaves and what other people do. If it becomes profitable for them to become a closed system, then they will do it if they can. The store has the potential to become a way of controlling the software they allow on their PCs. I need more tinfoil!!!![/QUOTE] Maybe one day, but this is entirely up to the developers. And Microsoft would probably get their ass handed to them in anti-trust lawsuits - you have to remember that they're risking a 750,000,000€ fine because some computers shipped without the browser choice program/link back in 2009 or something. Microsoft has a monopoly, and they'll have to act accordingly. [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Proffrink;38339239]Good points, but you must note that I'm not talking about Windows RT; I'm talking about Windows 8.[/QUOTE] Note how I differentiate between Windows 8 and RT, it was precisely what my post was about.

[QUOTE=MR-X;38336731]Well, maybe with enough people complaining Microsoft will change a few things. But it seems that they're more upset about their own version of the app store and what they sell rather then the OS as a whole. I can see why they want on the app store, but the people that already play games and know of digital platforms and use steam, origin, or other means.[/QUOTE] It seems to me they're more upset about Windows becoming more and more closed with each version, nothing to do with their app store.

[QUOTE=Electrocuter;38339717]It seems to me they're more upset about Windows becoming more and more closed with each version, nothing to do with their app store.[/QUOTE] But there is nothing more closed about W8 than W7, Vista and although I don't really know I don't think XP vas anymore closed than W7 was as well?

I don't care too much anyway: If Microsoft does turn into Apple, I'm already using Linux for nearly everything so it won't really affect me; if nothing happens then... nothing happens. It's quite likely that this will turn out to be nothing to worry about. Only time will tell. So long as all this commotion spooks a load of developers to take a leap over the fence, to sample the lush free fields of Linux, I'll be a happy penguin.

[QUOTE=Electrocuter;38339717]It seems to me they're more upset about Windows becoming more and more closed with each version, nothing to do with their app store.[/QUOTE] This is in the article: [quote] ...and at least part of Windows 8 entirely controlled by the Microsoft App Store, Steam is going to be a little bit harder to do – both in the store aspect and in the content delivery aspect,” said Drew. [/quote]

My annoyance is that the arguments being made by these 'beloved' developers are slippery slope arguments. [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Electrocuter;38339717]It seems to me they're more upset about Windows becoming more and more closed with each version, nothing to do with their app store.[/QUOTE] They're upset with the appstore. But I can smell the hypocracy because then they would be upset with the iOS app store and the Android appstore and the Ubuntu Software Center and every repository that has ever existed ever.

most of the people who are on this bandwagon have used windows 8 for an hour/watched a video on it and think they now know everything and hold the opinion of the video maker seriously it's good

[QUOTE=The First 11'er;38340292]most of the people who are on this bandwagon have used windows 8 for an hour/watched a video on it and think they now know everything and hold the opinion of the video maker seriously it's good[/QUOTE] Most of the people on the other side think that the bandwagoners are just moaning that the start button was removed. We're not saying that it isn't a good OS. We're saying that they've made a tentative step towards an Apple-like walled garden, where they control everything. Some people are going further with that idea than others. Most of it is just stating slippery slope possibilities. Personally, I wouldn't put it past MS to put their skates on when they see a slippery slope, so long as there's the possibility of a sack of cash at the bottom.

where is everyone getting the whole "windows is gonna be closed down" mentality Windows 8 is under the surface the exact same. you still have the same control over everything you did. the biggest new thing is the Modern UI which comes with a new, [I]completely optional[/I] app store. That's not closed down, that's just an option. Do you not like how the Windows Store works? That's fucking amazing. Then don't develop for it. Make the same desktop applications that you've been making. That option is still there.

As much as i like this version for it's looks and optimization, i'm not getting another version of windows until they launch DX12. I skipped windows 2000 from 98, and went straight to XP, just like i went straight from XP to 7 without even thinking about vista.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;38340762]where is everyone getting the whole "windows is gonna be closed down" mentality Windows 8 is under the surface the exact same. you still have the same control over everything you did. the biggest new thing is the Modern UI which comes with a new, [I]completely optional[/I] app store. That's not closed down, that's just an option. Do you not like how the Windows Store works? That's fucking amazing. Then don't develop for it. Make the same desktop applications that you've been making. That option is still there.[/QUOTE] I doubt anyone has read the requirements of getting in the appstore. Basically all this "closed wall" shit is them trying to keep the end user experience a good one. Just read over this document [url]http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694083.aspx[/url] it's basically just a checklist on how to make a nonshitty app.

[QUOTE=anthonywolfe;38340873]I doubt anyone has read the requirements of getting in the appstore. Basically all this "closed wall" shit is them trying to keep the end user experience a good one. Just read over this document [url]http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694083.aspx[/url] it's basically just a checklist on how to make a nonshitty app.[/QUOTE] even google has a guideline for app experience and i'm sure apple has guidelines somewhere in the iOS dev portal I can see Modern UI splitting off from regular windows (i.e. Windows RT) but microsoft would have to be literally retarded to start messing with the desktop

[QUOTE=The First 11'er;38340292]most of the people who are on this bandwagon have used windows 8 for an hour/watched a video on it and think they now know everything and hold the opinion of the video maker seriously it's good[/QUOTE] Doesn't work if you used it for months you are still not allowed to complain. Or get some dumb requirements to ignore metro (the main selling point of Windows 8 next to speed improvements). It feels like I should write several books on the minor things I don't like before the non-bandwagon side goes "Hey he could be right that it isn't perfect for him and others have complained about it maybe he has a point".

I just hate the massive shitload of hypocrispy coming from two companies that own incredibly closed and annoying systems that make it possible that you don't actually own your own game. (Steam and Battlenet) Before anyone argues, go ahead and try to argue that you actually own your games and that you can play these games WITHOUT Steam or Battlenet. Steam is now a literal appstore, if you remember they now provide 3D modeling programs and shit. That's what's going on. Microsoft and Valve will start competing.

[QUOTE=Swilly;38340987]I just hate the massive shitload of hypocrispy coming from two companies that own incredibly closed and annoying systems that make it possible that you don't actually own your own game. (Steam and Battlenet) Before anyone argues, go ahead and try to argue that you actually own your games and that yiou can play these games WITHOUT Steam or Battlenet. Steam is now a literal appstore. That's what's going on. Microsoft and Valve will start competing.[/QUOTE] that's exactly right. but the windows store has a much different target audience that does nothing more than overlap with the market Steam is marketed to.

[QUOTE=Swilly;38340131] They're upset with the appstore. But I can smell the hypocracy because then they would be upset with the iOS app store and the Android appstore and the Ubuntu Software Center and every repository that has ever existed ever.[/QUOTE] Valve is not worried about a fair competition from MS. And your smell is quite off, the only store you could compare it with is that of iOS. The other stores are fully open and optional. And iOS is not a PC OS anyway. As MS has monopoly on the desktop it has to play by certain rules and can not use its monopoly to force others out of the market by closing down their system.

[QUOTE=fowll;38341524]Valve is not worried about a fair competition from MS. And your smell is quite off, the only store you could compare it with is that of iOS. The other stores are fully open and optional. And OSis not a PC OS. As MS has monopoly on the desktop it has to play by certain rules and can not use its monopoly to force others out of the market by closing down their system.[/QUOTE] Except they don't have a monopoly nor do they have pushing force that they used to. This isn't 1999. And they are worried about MS being competition, they actually stated that. And if you actually looked at the rules, their just as open as Android's Marketplace and like Android(Which make it difficult to make it optional FYI) there are other methods to install software for Windows 8. So either Valve is trying to scare Microsoft with their power(Which is what MS used to do) or they're being paranoid as all fuck.

[QUOTE=Swilly;38341681]Except they don't have a monopoly nor do they have pushing force that they used to. This isn't 1999. And they are worried about MS being competition, they actually stated that. And if you actually looked at the rules, their just as open as Android's Marketplace and like Android(Which make it difficult to make it optional FYI) there are other methods to install software for Windows 8. So either Valve is trying to scare Microsoft with their power(Which is what MS used to do) or they're being paranoid as all fuck.[/QUOTE] There is no way around the MS store if you make metro/RT/tile apps. and as MS is pushing metro as the future and label the desktop mode as being legacy feature, it sound very much like MS is going in the direction of a walled garden. even if there is possile to side loade an app with an enterprise version of windows or some kind of hack, it is still fundamentally wrong. and do you honestly belive MS dont have an advantage that would be unfair to use to close an entire market for others?

[QUOTE=fowll;38341982]There is no way around the MS store if you make metro/RT/tile apps. and as MS is pushing metro as the future and label the desktop mode as being legacy feature, it sound very much like MS is going in the direction of a walled garden. even if there is possile to side loade an app with an enterprise version of windows or some kind of hack, it is still fundamentally wrong. and do you honestly belive MS dont have an advantage that would be unfair to use to close an entire market for others?[/QUOTE] trust me, MS is simply not getting rid of the desktop. dumbing down the OS doesn't mean they're trying to wall everyone in (and then lose all their serious customers.)

[QUOTE=Protocol7;38341994]trust me, MS is simply not getting rid of the desktop. dumbing down the OS doesn't mean they're trying to wall everyone in (and then lose all their serious customers.)[/QUOTE] Why should I trust you? When did you last have a chat with Ballmer? Personally I wouldn't rule out anything, from Valve's scare stories, to MS dropping the Modern UI and going back to an old fashioned desktop. Pretty much anything can happen when you pander to trends.

[QUOTE=Swilly;38340987]I just hate the massive shitload of hypocrispy coming from two companies that own incredibly closed and annoying systems that make it possible that [B]you don't actually own your own game.[/B] (Steam and Battlenet) Before anyone argues, go ahead and try to argue that you actually own your games and that you can play these games WITHOUT Steam or Battlenet. Steam is now a literal appstore, if you remember they now provide 3D modeling programs and shit. That's what's going on. Microsoft and Valve will start competing.[/QUOTE] This has always been the case, at least since the late 90s, with all games. If you read EULAs for just about anything they too "reserve the right to revoke" your "license" to any software whatsoever since that's really what you're buying when you buy a game - the legal means to use it. Technically indefinitely. It's effectively all lawyer bullshit so users can't sue for stupid shit they did/loopholes/claim total ownership of content/say that their copy of the files are their own property which they can do whatthefuckever to (Mostly share). It's not a complaint that can be limited to digital distributers at all.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;38341994]trust me, MS is simply not getting rid of the desktop. dumbing down the OS doesn't mean they're trying to wall everyone in (and then lose all their serious customers.)[/QUOTE] maybe they wont remove it but it might end up to be there solely as a backwardcompatibility and no one might care about it in 5 - 10 years, if MS gets it how they want and metro becomes the main market and were most development is aimed. that way they could make a smooth transaction that most people would not pay mutch attention to.

[QUOTE=MR-X;38336731]Well, maybe with enough people complaining Microsoft will change a few things. But it seems that they're more upset about their own version of the app store and what they sell rather then the OS as a whole. I can see why they want on the app store, but the people that already play games and know of digital platforms and use steam, origin, or other means.[/QUOTE] The thing is, those are not consumers complaining about windows. It's devs about a possible future. And devs will go where the consumer is, even if it means entering a more closed platform. Why else would they be on the 360, or ps3. Those are incredibly closed. But consumers are on it. In a sense it really doens't matter what they say. The thing that will make linux viable is not technology, it's the user base and willingness of it to shell out cash. It's why most stuff comes to ios first even if it's a somewhat smaller environment than Android. There's just more money there. [QUOTE=fowll;38342254]maybe they wont remove it but it might end up to be there solely as a backwardcompatibility and no one might care about it in 5 - 10 years, if MS gets it how they want and metro becomes the main market and were most development is aimed. that way they could make a smooth transaction that most people would not pay mutch attention to.[/QUOTE] Except the desktop and start menu interfaces are a similar divide like the commandline and the GUI interface. One is more powerfull and one is easier to use. BOth are still incredibly supported.

[QUOTE=wraithcat;38342341] Except the desktop and start menu interfaces are a similar divide like the commandline and the GUI interface. One is more powerfull and one is easier to use. BOth are still incredibly supported. [/QUOTE] Not comparable at all. Beside MS is clearly pushing metro and advising developer to develop or it, while the desktop is marked legacy feature. MS can clearly not just dump the desktop but it does sounds like they want to make a smooth transaction and evantually stop focusing on the desktop.

[QUOTE=fowll;38342478]Not comparable at all. Beside MS is clearly pushing metro and advising developer to develop or it, while the desktop is marked legacy feature. MS can clearly not just dump the desktop but it does sounds like they want to make a smooth transaction and evantually stop focusing on the desktop.[/QUOTE] Not sure where you're getting the vibe from. Most of all when you consider fairly big advancements to the desktop environment in both tools, UI and backend for devs which is present in windows 8.

There's a push for a new style of Windows that is more easily accessible to people and can penetrate the mobile market. There's absolutely no reason or proof that Microsoft is doing away with the desktop.