DirectX12 not coming to Windows 7/8 - Polidicks

If you do not format the partition it should move everything to windows.old

[QUOTE=dai;46988807]nobody owes those people new stuff if they don't want to upgrade to new stuff for new stuff[/QUOTE] Yeah, it's basically people yelling "why isn't Microsoft porting new features to my older OS version FOR FREE?!" Why is DX12 a feature that simply should be ported no questions asked, when multiple desktops isn't one? They're both non-essential, and you can get them by actually downloading and installing win 10 for free. Do people expect google to port new features to old versions of Android when they have a newer one available for free? The argument is even weaker here because many android OEMs don't even give you the option to install the newest version. You do have that option here.

Because they're quite literally holding a monopoly on Direct X

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46988567]Great, Microsoft is back to their old trick of using another incremental DirectX version to coerce people into adopting yet another version of Windows. I remember when they were using DX10 (I think) to force people into Vista so they could play Halo 2...[/QUOTE] As far as I am aware DX12 is beyond incremental. DX12 is more similar to Mantle in it's design, giving developers more control over the hardware and allowing for better optimization. Sure it may seem incremental to the consumer, but technologically it's quite different. See [url]http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/archive/2014/03/20/directx-12.aspx[/url]

[QUOTE=Map in a box;46989226]Because they're quite literally holding a monopoly on Direct X[/QUOTE] How does that work? It's their software

[QUOTE=Map in a box;46989226]Because they're quite literally holding a monopoly on Direct X[/QUOTE] It's their product? Should their product be ripped from their hands because it's theirs? This is literally the worst argument.

[QUOTE=Map in a box;46989226]Because they're quite literally holding a monopoly on Direct X[/QUOTE] That's like complaining Apple is holding a monopoly on OS X. It's their product, what's your point?

I care so little about direct x versions at this point. No one seems to take advantage of the new versions for ages.

Hopefully this sees more usage than DX11 has, it's such a massive overhaul that I expect many developers will be all over it. And maybe it can do it correctly and actually see use unlike Mantle. Gamers will have literally zero reason to not upgrade to Windows 10 (outside of you ballsy assholes on XP and Vista still). So it should be safe to use DX12 without alienating people.

I'm already planning on shifting to Win10 when it comes out but for real fuck you what the hell, Win8 isn't even that old [editline]22nd January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Map in a box;46989226]Because they're quite literally holding a monopoly on Direct X[/QUOTE] Uh, yes? That's how making your own product works. It's yours.

[QUOTE=Map in a box;46989226]Because they're quite literally holding a monopoly on Direct X[/QUOTE] Yup it's their product. Don't want to use DirectX? Use OpenGL. It's cross platform. You don't have to worry about OpenGL being locked to a specific windows release. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL[/url]

I think DX is one thing ms shouldn't lock to windows version as their dx adoption rate sucks enough already.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;46992050]I think DX is one thing ms shouldn't lock to windows version as their dx adoption rate sucks enough already.[/QUOTE] It costs money to backport it. No point when your literally offering 10 as a free upgrade to 7 and 8 users. On top of that, 7 is on extended support so its only receiving security patches, not feature related ones like DirectX. Anyone that has a legitimate reason to stay on those versions probably doesn't play high end PC games anyway.

[QUOTE=Demache;46992079]It costs money to backport it. No point when your literally offering 10 as a free upgrade to 7 and 8 users. On top of that, 7 is on extended support so its only receiving security patches, not feature related ones like DirectX. Anyone that has a legitimate reason to stay on those versions probably doesn't play high end PC games anyway.[/QUOTE] There's fuckton of people playing high end games on 7 and plenty on 8 who won't jump ship anytime soon due to risk of games breaking. Are you just spouting crap or do you have something to back your ridiculous statement?

[QUOTE=itisjuly;46992097]There's fuckton of people playing high end games on 7 and plenty on 8 who won't jump ship anytime soon due to risk of games breaking. Are you just spouting crap or do you have something to back your ridiculous statement?[/QUOTE] 2 words. Dual boot. If your worried about backward compatibility, you keep a legacy OS. Its that simple. 8 already broke a lot of old games, and the only OS MS would even consider is 8, but it has such a low adoption rate, they might as well say fuck it, use 10. EDIT: I guess it is a huge generalization, but Microsoft isn't interested in supporting that very small minority will have backwards compatibility issues but want DX12. Especially when it serves them no benefit.

[QUOTE=Zoran;46988956]So not 7? It's supposed to be a free upgrade from both from what I understood.[/QUOTE] I just upgraded from Windows 7 a couple of days ago, it will work fine.

DX12 might get a little bit more use because it is coming for Xbox One though.

[QUOTE=Demache;46992123]2 words. Dual boot. If your worried about backward compatibility, you keep a legacy OS. Its that simple. 8 already broke a lot of old games, and the only OS MS would even consider is 8, but it has such a low adoption rate, they might as well say fuck it, use 10. EDIT: I guess it is a huge generalization, but Microsoft isn't interested in supporting that very small minority will have backwards compatibility issues but want DX12. Especially when it serves them no benefit.[/QUOTE]I don't disagree but MS "don't care not my problem" attitude is hurting them more than us. It should be in their best interest for people to pick up DX12 so porting it to at least 8 would make sense.

[QUOTE=Demache;46992123]2 words. Dual boot. If your worried about backward compatibility, you keep a legacy OS. Its that simple. 8 already broke a lot of old games, and the only OS MS would even consider is 8, but it has such a low adoption rate, they might as well say fuck it, use 10. EDIT: I guess it is a huge generalization, but Microsoft isn't interested in supporting that very small minority will have backwards compatibility issues but want DX12. Especially when it serves them no benefit.[/QUOTE] What? I've had better compatibility in 8 than with 7 with older games...

Windows 10 is free for everyone with 7 or 8 anyway, so just get over yourselves and upgrade. It's not like you'll even need a better computer; every Windows after Vista has been [i]less[/i] resource-intensive than the last. Nothing you can run in 8 is going to break in 10, and what little software 7 can run but 10 can't is probably stuff that came out even before Vista (which - need I remind you - came out nearly a [i]decade[/i] ago at this point), horrendously obsolete, and only works in 7 anyway due to backwards-compatibility.

I'd rather wait for someone else to bite the bullet first and come with a report, before upgrading. Just because it's free, it doesn't mean we should all be jumping at it. It's not like Microsoft never fucked up an OS release.

[QUOTE=Lyokanthrope;46994394]What? I've had better compatibility in 8 than with 7 with older games...[/QUOTE] Windows 8 dropped DirectDraw support, it's just emulated now. So any old game that uses DirectDraw runs like shit. SWAT 3 and Rainbow Six run at about 5-10 FPS on my computer for example.

[QUOTE=Ager O'Eggers;46994665]I'd rather wait for someone else to bite the bullet first and come with a report, before upgrading. Just because it's free, it doesn't mean we should all be jumping at it. It's not like Microsoft never fucked up an OS release.[/QUOTE] Well I've used it in pre-release and its pretty fine tbh. Its just Windows 7+. Games seem to work pretty well with the fixes for Windows 8 systems, I played through Max Payne 1-3, Far Cry 3 and Wolfenstein:The New Order during the holidays on Windows 10 just fine. Nvidia drivers for 8.1 work perfectly on my end as well.

[QUOTE=ben1066;46989290]As far as I am aware DX12 is beyond incremental. DX12 is more similar to Mantle in it's design, giving developers more control over the hardware and allowing for better optimization. Sure it may seem incremental to the consumer, but technologically it's quite different. See [url]http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/archive/2014/03/20/directx-12.aspx[/url][/QUOTE] It says it's only a tech demo, but does this bring any hope of Forza on PC? Or is it only as it says - A tech demo.

[QUOTE=RautaPalli;46994682]Windows 8 dropped DirectDraw support, it's just emulated now. So any old game that uses DirectDraw runs like shit. SWAT 3 and Rainbow Six run at about 5-10 FPS on my computer for example.[/QUOTE] Most of them run fine for me, and if it just are specific games that have trouble, you can always try [url]http://www.nongnu.org/wined3d/[/url] [editline]23rd January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=darksoul69;46992027]Yup it's their product. Don't want to use DirectX? Use OpenGL. It's cross platform. You don't have to worry about OpenGL being locked to a specific windows release. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL[/url][/QUOTE] OpenGL is miles behind on the competition, the only thing that keeps them afloat is being the only serious open standard. Although in that aspect they kind fail since OpenGL is generally poorly supported, or is wrongly implemented, and there are a whole bunch of bugs to fix between GPU vendors. There is no multithreading compatibility, and has no support for some of the more recent features like command buffers that metal, mantle and DirectX 12 offer. They even don't support most of the new DirectX 12 stuff in the 4.5 extensions. They are making an effort to fix this in whats called "OpenGL Next" but they are easily 5+ years late with doing so.

Lets act surprised that a new standard is only being supported on their new platform. Especially one they are trying to get everyone to migrate over to (for free) to reduce fragmentation (which means easier support). Seriously in what world does it make any sense to have it be backwards compatable with W8/W7? They are trying to get rid of their platform fragmentation, not create even more.

[QUOTE=RautaPalli;46994682]Windows 8 dropped DirectDraw support, it's just emulated now. So any old game that uses DirectDraw runs like shit. SWAT 3 and Rainbow Six run at about 5-10 FPS on my computer for example.[/QUOTE] I also heard vsync is buggy on win 8. I'm sorry but if I want to upgrade to Win 10 I'd like to run shit that ran fine on XP. Compatibility issues is not how the future should be.

[QUOTE=spectator1;46995168]I also heard vsync is buggy on win 8. I'm sorry but if I want to upgrade to Win 10 I'd like to run shit that ran fine on XP. Compatibility issues is not how the future should be.[/QUOTE] You can't keep everything compatible forever. Trying to do that is why Windows is such a fucking mess internally and why it takes up 1 billion exobytes of space for little reason. If you want to run shit that only works on XP, dual boot or virtualise the OS. We've had these options for decades now.

[QUOTE=Cold;46994737]Most of them run fine for me, and if it just are specific games that have trouble, you can always try [url]http://www.nongnu.org/wined3d/[/url] [editline]23rd January 2015[/editline] OpenGL is miles behind on the competition, the only thing that keeps them afloat is being the only serious open standard. Although in that aspect they kind fail since OpenGL is generally poorly supported, or is wrongly implemented, and there are a whole bunch of bugs to fix between GPU vendors. There is no multithreading compatibility, and has no support for some of the more recent features like command buffers that metal, mantle and DirectX 12 offer. They even don't support most of the new DirectX 12 stuff in the 4.5 extensions. They are making an effort to fix this in whats called "OpenGL Next" but they are easily 5+ years late with doing so.[/QUOTE] I'm curious where you're getting this info on OpenGL. From my research from a gaming standpoint, DirectX (unsure about 12) and OpenGL are essentially the same thing, just different workflows, different resource managment schemes, and serve very different purposes. For example, OpenGL is and always will be superior for professional programs. OpenGL is a general purpose multi-use, open source graphics library. DirectX is a graphics library with the sole purpose to use with games. So yes, DirectX potentially runs games faster than OpenGL, but is rubbish for CAD and other high end platforms and programs. You have to keep in mind, OpenGL was developed by SGI for their workstations, a large chunk of calls for the longest time were useless for games and was designed to work regardless of situation. (For example, a bad hardware call will revert to software mode, which is much slower than hardware accelerated, but if you had that same error happen under DirectX, it would simply crash) OpenGL also natively supported 'pixel shaders' (called fragment programs in OpenGL) and Hardware T&L long before DirectX did and was how the GeForce 265 stomped competing GPUs into the dirt.

I work as a freelance programmer, and occasionally get to touch graphics as part of that. I've done graphics programming in both DirectX and OpenGL. And try to keep up to date on the rest. There is nothing that OpenGL can do that DirectX can't do, through the power of extension OpenGL can probably do even more (although without vendor specific extensions, not right now) The problem is not what they can/can't do, its how you get there. The API DirectX provides on the User/CPU side of it is vastly superior. It supports multithreading and is generally easier to use. The big thing right now, is reducing drawcall overhead on the CPU, DirectX 12 achieves this through improvements in their driver model, by moving a lot functionality from the KMDF to the UMDF drivers. Mantle, Metal and DirectX 12, also now have the ability to cache/save/build command buffers, which is a big deal. Autocad, and various other applications in that area, for a long time used OpenGL exclusively as their rendering backend, although at this point all autodesk applications have support for DirectX. Their rendering back-end are ancient either way, and i don't think they care much for any of the graphics related innovations. There are various software OpenGL fallback libraries, but they don't function on a per-call basis, they are just there to provide software rendering fallbacks for systems that do not meet the requirements. Which was an acceptable fallback in the 90ths, but right now its pretty much has no practical use, as GPU's are factors faster then CPUs. I guess for non game applications, you're less likely to run into most of the problems of OpenGL, that other APIs don't suffer from. But there is nothing that stops you from using DirectX either(there is no "This is Rubish" for anything but games, DirectD3D is just a graphics rendering library), as long as you don't care about cross platform compatibility. [editline]23rd January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=spectator1;46995168]I also heard vsync is buggy on win 8. I'm sorry but if I want to upgrade to Win 10 I'd like to run shit that ran fine on XP. Compatibility issues is not how the future should be.[/QUOTE] Its been deprecated for over 15 years now and its still functional for most applications, i am not sure how far you expect them to go.